The O Neill Clan

wannabe147

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/uineill.htm

Can anyone help?
I would like to know if the O Neill Clan ever used the surname :
Ui Niall.

I know that Ui Neill was used but I cannot find Ui Niall anywhere
except one man who claims to have Irish ancestors with this surname and he claims to have a passport in this name.

pinkypinky

It wouldn't surprise me - it's just a different spelling. The Uí instead of O was common in 10th/11th/12th centuries (it's all over the Annals of the Four Masters, etc) but then gave way to more widespread use of O instead.

Ipso

Doesn't Ui mean extended family. From what I understand names like Gallagher, McLaughlin, Cannon, McDaid, Doherty are UiNiall surnames; descendants of Niall o' the nine hostages. O'Neill means grandson of Niall, in this case NotNH's grandson Niall Glundubh.

wannabe147

I am aware of what the Ui and O stand for and also Ni is for daughter .
What I am curious about is that Ui doesnt seem to be used in the Gaeilge language at all now and that includes the O Neill clan.

wannabe147

In the Gaeilge language O is son of and Ni is daughter of.....I would like to know if it's used nowadays.

CeannRua

Uí is used in Irish nowadays. Married women use it and it has a tuiseal ginideach use. You'd probably get more detail if you ask in the Irish language forum.

orangesoda

I've often wondered that myself O'Niall has an odd ring to it though, how is Niall actually pronounced in the Irish language? Nee-il or Ny-all

Ipso

orangesoda wrote: »

I've often wondered that myself O'Niall has an odd ring to it though, how is Niall actually pronounced in the Irish language? Nee-il or Ny-all

I think it should be Ne-ill.
Apparently Nigel is a variation, the vikings took a liking to Niall, it got turned to Njall and they took it to Normandy and then to England to become Nigel.

wannabe147

Is Annett a variation of the O Neill clan ?

pedroeibar1

wannabe147 wrote: »

Is Annett a variation of the O Neill clan ?

What makes you suggest that ? Various websites suggest a totally different meaning e.g. this one

If you want something curious to play with, look up Lamont, a name of O’Neill lineage.

In general terms, Uí is a prefix, meaning more or less ‘of the tribe of’ e.g. Uí Neill = of the tribe of Niall and Uí was replaced by Ua, which became in more recent centuries O’. It applies to those of at least a two generation remove – grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc.

‘Ní’ means daughter of e.g. Helen Ryan is Ailín Ní Ríain and applies to an unmarried woman, who on marriage to say an Sean O’Suilleabhain takes his family name and becomes Ailín O’Suilleabhain. In certain surnames ‘Ní’ becomes ‘Nic’, as in Nic Gearailt (Fitzgerald), but an Ailín Nic Gearailt on marriage becomes O’ or Mac/Mc depending on her husbands name.

When writing in English the Irish language is Gaelic, not Gaeilge.

I respectfully disagree with Ceann Rua above, but my Irish is rather basic and I’m open to correction. Using ‘Uí Neill’ in modern day terms seems to me a bit like reverting to ‘thee’ ‘thou’ ‘mayest’ and ‘knoweth’. Or using a double lowercase ff in a ‘F’ surname, as in ffrench, instead of French. Strikes me as archaic and pretentious, but to each his/her own.

CeannRua

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What makes you suggest that ? Various websites suggest a totally different meaning e.g. this one

If you want something curious to play with, look up Lamont, a name of O’Neill lineage.

In general terms, Uí is a prefix, meaning more or less ‘of the tribe of’ e.g. Uí Neill = of the tribe of Niall and Uí was replaced by Ua, which became in more recent centuries O’. It applies to those of at least a two generation remove – grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc.

‘Ní’ means daughter of e.g. Helen Ryan is Ailín Ní Ríain and applies to an unmarried woman, who on marriage to say an Sean O’Suilleabhain takes his family name and becomes Ailín O’Suilleabhain. In certain surnames ‘Ní’ becomes ‘Nic’, as in Nic Gearailt (Fitzgerald), but an Ailín Nic Gearailt on marriage becomes O’ or Mac/Mc depending on her husbands name.

When writing in English the Irish language is Gaelic, not Gaeilge.

I respectfully disagree with Ceann Rua above, but my Irish is rather basic and I’m open to correction. Using ‘Uí Neill’ in modern day terms seems to me a bit like reverting to ‘thee’ ‘thou’ ‘mayest’ and ‘knoweth’. Or using a double lowercase ff in a ‘F’ surname, as in ffrench, instead of French. Strikes me as archaic and pretentious, but to each his/her own.

What a puzzling post.

From the Irish language forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057163703

pedroeibar1

Quite right Ceann Rua, I was too fixated on ‘He claims to have a passport in this name.’ I should have thought more carefully about it! I agree that the Ui is used with for e..g. Bean Ui Neill and with some other surnames Ui Mhurchu, Ui Bhroin, etc. However, I know a married woman who goes by O’Suilleabhain and an O’Mhurchu also.
But is it correct for a man to use it? as in Aodh Ui Neill?

KildareFan

The use of the form 'Uí Neill' or "Ua Neill" depends on grammar and not pretension.

'Uí' is used to denote the singular genitive case of Ó as in 'the family of O'Neill' in Irish is 'Clann Uí Neill'; 'Ua' is used in the plural genitive case. Underlining patriarchal relations, the wife of an O'Neill acquires an 'Uí' as in, "Máíre Bean Uí Neill" literally "Maire, wife/woman of O'Neill". The son of an O'Neill retains his Ó in Irish as in 'Sean Ó Neill', but his sister becomes a 'Ní' as in 'Brid Ní Neill'

This site discusses the grammar of Irish surnames: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/declension-irish-surnames.php

pinkypinky

I too am intrigued by the use of "claims" but the point is that whatever the correct Irish, I think it's entirely plausible that something as simple as Neill could be corrupted to Niall over time, especially if we're dealing emigrants.

CassieManson

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What makes you suggest that ? Various websites suggest a totally different meaning e.g. this one

If you want something curious to play with, look up Lamont, a name of O’Neill lineage.

In general terms, Uí is a prefix, meaning more or less ‘of the tribe of’ e.g. Uí Neill = of the tribe of Niall and Uí was replaced by Ua, which became in more recent centuries O’. It applies to those of at least a two generation remove – grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc.

‘Ní’ means daughter of e.g. Helen Ryan is Ailín Ní Ríain and applies to an unmarried woman, who on marriage to say an Sean O’Suilleabhain takes his family name and becomes Ailín O’Suilleabhain. In certain surnames ‘Ní’ becomes ‘Nic’, as in Nic Gearailt (Fitzgerald), but an Ailín Nic Gearailt on marriage becomes O’ or Mac/Mc depending on her husbands name.

When writing in English the Irish language is Gaelic, not Gaeilge.

I respectfully disagree with Ceann Rua above, but my Irish is rather basic and I’m open to correction. Using ‘Uí Neill’ in modern day terms seems to me a bit like reverting to ‘thee’ ‘thou’ ‘mayest’ and ‘knoweth’. Or using a double lowercase ff in a ‘F’ surname, as in ffrench, instead of French. Strikes me as archaic and pretentious, but to each his/her own.

I disagree that use of Uí is pretentious. My mother (a native Irish speaker) goes by the Irish name xxx Bean Uí xxxxx as in wife of xxx. This is the correct form, but some chose not to use it.

Call me Al

The use if Uí is not pretentious or archaic. It's used appropriately and correctly all the time by some women when writing their marriage name in Irish. If I write my name in Irish I use it (albeit without the "bean" bit) as to use Ní denotes that I am my husband's daughter and not his wife. I really don't mind what anyone else does though.

I think the only time I've would ever seen a man use it would be in saying they were of the clann Uí Neill or whatever the surname happens to be. Grammatically I don't think it's correct, but I am far from grammar perfect.

CeannRua

KildareFan wrote: »

Ceann Rua - the use of the form 'Uí Neill' or "Ua Neill" depends on grammar and not pretension.

'Uí' is used to denote the singular genitive case of Ó as in 'the family of O'Neill' in Irish is 'Clann Uí Neill'; 'Ua' is used in the plural genitive case. Underlining patriarchal relations, the wife of an O'Neill acquires an 'Uí' as in, "Máíre Bean Uí Neill" literally "Maire, wife/woman of O'Neill". The son of an O'Neill retains his Ó in Irish as in 'Sean Ó Neill', but his sister becomes a 'Ní' as in 'Brid Ní Neill'

This site discusses the grammar of Irish surnames: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/declension-irish-surnames.php

You might have another read of the thread. I never referred to pretension.

pedroeibar1

I, not Ceann Rua, used the word pretentious and some posters seem to have jumped to some rather odd conclusions.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

In general terms, Uí is a prefix, meaning more or less ‘of the tribe of’ e.g. Uí Neill = of the tribe of Niall and Uí was replaced by Ua, which became in more recent centuries O’. It applies to those of at least a two generation remove – grandchildren and great grandchildren, etc.

What I wrote would appear to be historically accurate, with references to the Uí Neill in for e.g. the Annals of the Four Masters where An army was led by Brian and Maelseachlainn into North Connaught, as far as Traigh-Eothaile, to proceed around Ireland; but they were prevented by the Ui-Neill of the North. In modern usage it is used in the genitive case in the case of a married woman as clarified by Ceann Rua. (The question of a married woman in the 21st century describing herself as of her husband's tribe is another matter.)

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

‘Ní’ means daughter of e.g. Helen Ryan is Ailín Ní Ríain and applies to an unmarried woman, who on marriage to say an Sean O’Suilleabhain takes his family name and becomes Ailín O’Suilleabhain. In certain surnames ‘Ní’ becomes ‘Nic’, as in Nic Gearailt (Fitzgerald), but an Ailín Nic Gearailt on marriage becomes O’ or Mac/Mc depending on her husbands name.

Whether it is grammatically correct or not, the married woman calling herself by O' anything is quite common. There are Ui Gearailts (well, there is just one on Linkedin).

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Using ‘Uí Neill’ in modern day terms seems to me a bit like reverting to ‘thee’ ‘thou’ ‘mayest’ and ‘knoweth’. Or using a double lowercase ff in a ‘F’ surname, as in ffrench, instead of French. Strikes me as archaic and pretentious, but to each his/her own.

I should have been more clear in my earlier post; however, it is obvious that the question (if some posters bothered to read it) is about the use of 'Uí' by a man, and not a woman

wannabe147 wrote: »

I know that Ui Neill was used but ........... one man who claims to have Irish ancestors with this surname and he claims to have a passport in this name.

So, is he being archaic, pretentious, grammatically incorrect or what?

CeannRua

I think the bottom line here is that people can spell their names any way they want, even if it non-standard. Spelling conventions are established through use, in all words, and not just names. Just because one person has a passport in the name Ui Niall doesn't mean its use was widespread, or that anyone else on the planet uses this version. It could just be that someone decided this was correct.

Totally anecdotal but a friend of mine has an Irish language surname. At some point, her sister decided they needed to insert a 'h' because they are female. Both of them used this new spelling, which is wrong / non-standard (call it what you will), for years. They have now reverted to the correct spelling, whatever 'correct' means in this context anyway.

P. Breathnach

CeannRua wrote: »

... Totally anecdotal but a friend of mine has an Irish language surname. At some point, her sister decided they needed to insert a 'h' because they are female. Both of them used this new spelling, which is wrong / non-standard (call it what you will), for years....

There are names where females should use lenition; e.g. Seán Breathnach; Áine Bhreathnach. That's because some surnames are, in terms of grammar, adjectives.

I think it best practice to apply the Irish grammatical rules when using Irish, but not when using English.

CeannRua

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are names where females should use lenition; e.g. Seán Breathnach; Áine Bhreathnach. That's because some surnames are, in terms of grammar, adjectives.

I think it best practice to apply the Irish grammatical rules when using Irish, but not when using English.

Yes, I know this but it doesn't apply to the surname my anecdote was about.

pedroeibar1

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think it best practice to apply the Irish grammatical rules when using Irish, but not when using English.

I agree; Cliodhna Shmith looks and sounds sorta 'off'.