Childs passport

g.kingz

Hi just wondering if anyone can help, can understand if you can't.

The father of my baby is looking for the baby's passport so he can apply for residency. We're not in a relationship and there is no passport as of yet. I was reading the passport website and it said for a parent who is non eu/eea national, they have to show proof of legal residency for the last four years. .Which he doesn't have. Will my child still get a passport since I am an irish citizen even though both of us are required to sign the form?

Edit: the baby is 5 months old

Peregrinus

Where was your child born?

g.kingz

Peregrinus wrote: »

Where was your child born?

He was born in Ireland

Peregrinus

Your child is an Irish citizen from birth and is entitled to an Irish passport.

As regards parental consent to passports for children, in the case of unmarried parents the position can be a little bit complex, depending on (a) whether the father;s name is on the birth certificate and (b) whether the father has become a joint guardian with the mother. But all complexities are swept away if both parents sign the consent. As the child's father clearly wants the child to have a passport, presumably he will sign the consent form. The fact that he hasn't been a legal resident may be relevant to other matters, but I don't think it's relevant here; there's no rule that only fathers who are legally resident can consent to passports for their children.

GerardKeating

g.kingz wrote: »

He was born in Ireland

Why does he need passport for the child, a birth cert should do, unless they want to travel...

Oryx

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why does he need passport for the child, a birth cert should do, unless they want to travel...

This struck me too. Maybe its hysterical to think it, but I would wonder if he wants to take the child out of the country.

Borzoi

Oryx wrote: »

This struck me too. Maybe its hysterical to think it, but I would wonder if he wants to take the child out of the country.

My thought too. Don't give the father the passport, you get it and if necessary deal with fathers solicitors - ie someone who won't leave the country.

Peregrinus

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why does he need passport for the child, a birth cert should do, unless they want to travel...

Very true. The child's birth cert, showing birth in Ireland, plus evidence that the mother was an Irish citizen at the time of the birth (her birth cert, her passport or both) are enough to show that the child is an Irish citizen.

Jude13

Borzoi wrote: »

My thought too. Don't give the father the passport, you get it and if necessary deal with fathers solicitors - ie someone who won't leave the country.

I believe he will have a issue with this being as much a parent as the mother he will view this as a slight, he has as much right to hold the child's passport as the mother.

Peregrinus

The child doesn't need a passport at all, unless one or other parent wishes to bring him out of the country. From the OP, it appears that the father's need is simply to show that the child is an Irish citizen. That doesn't require the child to have a passport.

Pro Hoc Vice

GerardKeating wrote: »

Why does he need passport for the child, a birth cert should do, unless they want to travel...

To apply under the Zambrano rule. The INIS require the information page of a passport of the child, a birth cert does not of itself prove irish citizenship only a passport in and of itself does.

Pro Hoc Vice

Peregrinus wrote: »

The child doesn't need a passport at all, unless one or other parent wishes to bring him out of the country. From the OP, it appears that the father's need is simply to show that the child is an Irish citizen. That doesn't require the child to have a passport.

Yes a copy of information page of child's passport is required in application under Zambrano.


Information specific to persons who have no current right of residency

Any person who is in the State and has no current right of residency, but who wishes to have their case considered in line with the principles of the Zambrano Judgment, must submit the following documentation to the INIS’ Repatriation Division (full address below) before their case can be considered:
A colour copy of the bio-data page of the Irish born citizen child's passport,

From http://inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000037

Peregrinus

Ok. If that is the INIS position, then in my view it's unlawful and will not survive a challenge. The benefit of Zambrano is not confined to the parents of an irish citizen child who holds a passport; it's available whether or not the child has a passport, so long as the child is an Irish citizen and lives in Ireland (and is dependent on the applicant). Obviously, the state is treating the passport application process not just as a verification that the child is an Irish citizen, but as the only verification that they will accept for Zambrano purposes. I doubt they could defend this, if challenged.

But, in the real world, it will be much cheaper and much quicker to apply for and obtain a passport for the child than it will to challenge the practice of demanding a passport.

And, if nothing else, this provides an answer to Oryx's concern. It fully explains why the father would want the child to obtain a passport, and there is no reason to hypothesise that he has a hidden agenda to spirit the child abroad.

As to who should keep the passport, if the mother is sole guardian she should keep it. If they are joint guardians then they can arrange this however they like. It makes practical sense for whoever has primary custody of the child to keep the passport. For the purposes of his application the father doesn't need the passport; just a colour photocopy of the relevant page.

Pro Hoc Vice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Ok. If that is the INIS position, then in my view it's unlawful and will not survive a challenge. The benefit of Zambrano is not confined to the parents of an irish citizen child who holds a passport; it's available whether or not the child has a passport, so long as the child is an Irish citizen and lives in Ireland (and is dependent on the applicant). Obviously, the state is treating the passport application process not just as a verification that the child is an Irish citizen, but as the only verification that they will accept for Zambrano purposes. I doubt they could defend this, if challenged.

But, in the real world, it will be much cheaper and much quicker to apply for and obtain a passport for the child than it will to challenge the practice of demanding a passport.

And, if nothing else, this provides an answer to Oryx's concern. It fully explains why the father would want the child to obtain a passport, and there is no reason to hypothesise that he has a hidden agenda to spirit the child abroad.

As to who should keep the passport, if the mother is sole guardian she should keep it. If they are joint guardians then they can arrange this however they like. It makes practical sense for whoever has primary custody of the child to keep the passport. For the purposes of his application the father doesn't need the passport; just a colour photocopy of the relevant page.

The requirement of proof of citizenship of the child is proportionate to the aims of the scheme. To require a copy of the bio page would in my opinion be the easiest way to do that and so again in my opinion would be proportionate. I would say a challenge would go no where very fast.

As you say all the father needs is a full colour copy of the bio page, the passport can be kept by the custodial parent. If anyone is worried about a Hague convention situation then of course applications can be made if it is believed they are required.

All Hail President Murphy

Jude13 wrote: »

I believe he will have a issue with this being as much a parent as the mother he will view this as a slight, he has as much right to hold the child's passport as the mother.

Exactly. I resent the way some people are assuming that he plans to kidnap the child simply because he's a man.

Would you feel sorry for the man if the woman took off to Australia or America or something and never let the man see his own flesh and blood?

g.kingz

If the passport was issued, it would stay in my custody. At the moment, we have an oncoming court case for him to get guardianship. He isn't on the birth certificate but that will probably change too. He has said he needs a colour copy of the information page and the original birth certificate for his application. So if we get a passport issued, it will stay in my custody.

Peregrinus

That all sounds fine. Since the father is not on the birth cert and does not (yet) have joint guardianship, it's not necessary (or, I think, possible) for him to consent to the passport application. However before it can proceed on the basis of your application alone you'll have to make a sworn declaration saying that you are the sole guardian. There's a form for this that you can get from the passport office.

g.kingz

Peregrinus wrote: »

That all sounds fine. Since the father is not on the birth cert and does not (yet) have joint guardianship, it's not necessary (or, I think, possible) for him to consent to the passport application. However before it can proceed on the basis of your application alone you'll have to make a sworn declaration saying that you are the sole guardian. There's a form for this that you can get from the passport office.

Yeah I read that last night and it also says you have to swear there are no impending court cases so I wouldn't be able to do that.

Peregrinus

Oh. Well in that case it may not be possible to apply for a passport until the guardianship case has been resolved.

Or, possibly, have another look at the passport application form and see if it's possible to sign saying something like "I'm not a guardian of this child but I'm applying to become one and, in the meantime, I consent to this application for a passport". If so, I assume the father will be willing to sign the passport application, in which case you're good to go.

Peregrinus

g.kingz wrote: »

Yeah I read that last night and it also says you have to swear there are no impending court cases so I wouldn't be able to do that.

I've just had a look at the declaration form here: https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/passportcitizenship/2013-sole-guardian-affidavit.pdf

I doesn't say that you have to swear that there are no court cases; just that there is no court order. Which there isn't. So, unless I'm looking at an out of date version of the form, you should be good to go.

Obviously you're reading something different. Can you point me to it?

g.kingz

Peregrinus wrote: »

I've just had a look at the declaration form here: https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/passportcitizenship/2013-sole-guardian-affidavit.pdf

I doesn't say that you have to swear that there are no court cases; just that there is no court order. Which there isn't. So, unless I'm looking at an out of date version of the form, you should be good to go.

Obviously you're reading something different. Can you point me to it?

Oh I must of read that wrong. Thanks for that. I might ring my local garda station just to confirm.

Peregrinus

nuckeythompson wrote: »

No need for him to have the childs passport. 2/1 on says he is middle eastern or North African. Without sounding like a racist my guess is he is Muslum

How on earth do you think this is not going to make you sound like a racist?

Hunter Mahan

If you want to get the passport, fill out the forms, bring your child, birth cert, photos and your own passport to a commissioner for oaths. Make your declaration get commissioner to fill in the form.
Then bring all this including the child to your local station and you will be fine.

nuckeythompson

Peregrinus wrote: »

How on earth do you think this is not going to make you sound like a racist?

Because it generally happens with parents from some places outside the EU. Fathers who follow Islam tend to take their kids to their own countries where the mothers cant get to them. This is not racist just a fact based on many cases over the years.

GerardKeating

Peregrinus wrote: »

Very true. The child's birth cert, showing birth in Ireland, plus evidence that the mother was an Irish citizen at the time of the birth (her birth cert, her passport or both) are enough to show that the child is an Irish citizen.

I had the same issues with INIS, when my wife was applying for a Visa, they wanted my passport, but I did not have one (at that time). My birth cert (since i was born before the law changed) should be enough to prove citizenship (since it was all that I required to get a passport) but they would not accept this and insisted that I apply for a passport.

But it is cheaper to apply for a passport than to challenge such "rules".