Problems with landlord. No lease. No receipt of deposit

dottybows

Hi all,

I have been renting a room in a 5 bedroom house (two other rooms rented and one used occasionally by the landlord himself) for the past two years.

I have paid a deposit of €325 before I moved in. I do not have anything in writing (lease, receipt of deposit, rent book).

I am moving out at the end of this month because I am having a baby next month and I'm moving in with my partner.



Last year the immersion wasn't working and the landlord didn't get it fixed for an entire month, so I deducted €50 off the rent. After a bit of arguing he accepted this.

So now in December the heating downstairs (kitchen, living room) stopped working. This was just a few days before Christmas. I asked the landlord to get a plumber and replied saying he tried to get one, but couldn't and I should try a guy up the road. I did, but he wasn't home both times. So I went to Argos and bought a heater. It is now March and it still isn't fixed.

Also, the state of the couch in the living room is absolutely disgraceful. The pillows literally sink into the bottom of the frame and the staples are sticking out (I cut my leg and Jeans on it once) We have asked him to replace it in January, but he still hasn't lifted a finger saying he didn't get around to it yet.

Ok, I'll try and wrap this up as it is getting way too long.

So I withheld the February rent until last week in the hope of getting him to sort it all out and I told him that I am not happy paying the full rent as I can't even use the living room because the heating isn't working and the couch is crap. He told me to move out if I didn't like it and that he wants the full rent. I also told him I don't agree with having to pay for the UPC (tv) if I can't sit down in the living room to watch tv because its too cold and I can't sit on the couch. He just said it doesn't work like that and that I need to pay him.
I have to say I am very emotional at this time due to the obvious hormones so I buckled and paid the February rent because I was afraid of getting kicked out at 8 months pregnant.

Now he is saying that he wants the march rent this week. As I already said I have paid a deposit but have no way of proving that. No receipt, nothing. I don't trust him one bit and am afraid that he will not give me back my deposit once I move.
So can I tell him to use the deposit as the last months rent? I really cannot afford to lose that money.

D3PO

you cant withold rent you owe it so pay it.

You cant withold UPC money because of your nonsence reasoning. Nor can you demand he get a new couch coz you think its "crap" nor can you claim money for a heater you went and bought.



right now why the hell would he return your deposit you owe him money. You cannot withold another months rent and tell him to use the deposit because right now your deposit is gone to cover your arrears.

He sounds like a cowboy landlord but you are a cowboy tennant too. You both need to grow up and learn about your individual responsibilities as a LL and tenant.

ladypip

D3PO She paid the Febuary rent, I think you are being quite rude.

OP if you have no contract nor any documentation, your are not under a legal lease and as far as i know you are entitled to tell him to keep the deposit as your last months rent. Just don't be the person who does that and leaves the place in tatters, make sure everything in your room is left in good repair and I cant see him having a problem with it.

D3PO

ladypip wrote: »

D3PO She paid the Febuary rent, I think you are being quite rude.

OP if you have no contract nor any documentation, your are not under a legal lease and as far as i know you are entitled to tell him to keep the deposit as your last months rent. Just don't be the person who does that and leaves the place in tatters, make sure everything in your room is left in good repair and I cant see him having a problem with it.

didnt notice that Febs rent was paid thanks for the clarification.

Re no contract there is always a rental agreement weather there is a written lease or not. Depending on the exact sitatuation renting a room or renting the property.

now the OP may technically be on Part 4 or may be a licencee we jsut cant tell for the detail provided. Either way it would never be an entitlement to say keep the deposit as the last mnths rent I have no idea what you are basing this on.

Perhaps my post was rude but jsut as I cannot abide delinqent landlords I equally cannot stand delinquent tenants so I will never ever agree to a tenant going rogue.

Two wrongs dont make a right ever.

dottybows

D3PO wrote: »

you cant withold rent you owe it so pay it.

You cant withold UPC money because of your nonsence reasoning. Nor can you demand he get a new couch coz you think its "crap" nor can you claim money for a heater you went and bought.



right now why the hell would he return your deposit you owe him money. You cannot withold another months rent and tell him to use the deposit because right now your deposit is gone to cover your arrears.

He sounds like a cowboy landlord but you are a cowboy tennant too. You both need to grow up and learn about your individual responsibilities as a LL and tenant.

That's not correct. I do not owe him anything yet. I have paid all my rent and bills up to date except for the €50 I deducted last year because I was left with cold water for a month.

I did not ask for the money for the heater as I will take that with me.

How do you think my reasoning is nonsense when I cannot use a room because it is so cold I can see my own breath in? It is €20 a month for the UPC as well and if the living room is freezing cold and he won't get it fixed then why the hell should I pay for something I cannot use?

dottybows

Also, what is the difference in him keeping the deposit or me paying him the last months rent and him giving me back the deposit then? Same amount of money.
My room is left in great condition and I never broke anything.
My problem is that I do not trust him and as I do not have proof in writing that I paid him a deposit he can just turn around and say I never paid one. He has said so many things over the past year and never followed through. I'd be moving out anyway even if I wasn't pregnant.
As long as the rent is paid he doesn't feel the need to do anything because that is all he cares about.
My other housemate feels the same way, but always pays up because like me - doesn't like confrontation.

I can't argue at all and especially now like I said with all these pregnancy hormones I was in bits last week crying in front of him because I feel pushed into a corner.

MouseTail

Why did you not chase up the plumber?

thomas anderson.

Dont pay March rent and move out

/thread

petes

What do the other tenants have to say about it?

dottybows

MouseTail wrote: »

Why did you not chase up the plumber?

Because he is the landlord and should sort it out.

I had more important problems to deal with at the time as there were a few complications with my pregnancy.

I shouldn't have to ask him to fix the same problem ten times. And I am not the only one living in this house.

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

Re no contract there is always a rental agreement weather there is a written lease or not. Depending on the exact sitatuation renting a room or renting the property.

now the OP may technically be on Part 4 or may be a licencee we jsut cant tell for the detail provided. Either way it would never be an entitlement to say keep the deposit as the last mnths rent I have no idea what you are basing this on.

This

dottybows wrote: »

I have been renting a room in a 5 bedroom house (two other rooms rented and one used occasionally by the landlord himself) for the past two years.

suggests to me that the OP is a licensee and not a tenant. Depends how occasionally is occasionally.

dottybows

petes wrote: »

What do the other tenants have to say about it?

One moved out a month ago and the other like I said just pays because he doesn't like confrontation. He asks about stuff being fixed but even if it isn't still pays the rent.

Ray Palmer

You at no point had any right to withhold any rent. You owe him them money

dottybows

djimi wrote: »

This



suggests to me that the OP is a licensee and not a tenant. Depends how occasionally is occasionally.

What is a licencee? He is here mostly two days a week. Sometimes three. I don't see much of him as I work nights.

murphaph

It sounds to me like you're a licencee rather than a tenant as you do not have exclusive use of the premises (LL keeps a room and spends time there).

Given that, the LL can literally throw you out this evening if he so wishes and there's been no law broken. You are a guest in his property according to law, even though you are paying for it. Bear this in mind before withholding the last month's rent as he sounds a bit unhinged to me (I wouldn't leave anyone in a a freezing house for weeks on end, let alone a pregnant woman).

djimi

dottybows wrote: »

What is a licencee? He is here mostly two days a week. Sometimes three. I don't see much of him as I work nights.

A licensee is someone who is renting an accommodation under license (ie living with their landlord), and as such are not covered by the terms of the tenancy act, and have little legal protection. If the landlord spends 2-3 nights a week in the property then you are almost certainly a licensee.

From your point of view, it means that neither of you can use the PRTB to chase a dispute. This means that it will be difficult for him to chase you for rent arrears, and it will be difficult for you to chase him for a withheld deposit (especially considering you have nothing in writing to show what you have paid).

Your best course of action to get out of this as smoothly as you can is to clear the rent arrears if any still exist (this includes money that you have withheld for any grievances you may have had; you are not allowed to withhold rent for issues like that), and come to an arrangement with the landlord to use the deposit as the last months rent. That way you get your out with no further hassle, and he avoids having to hand you over money when you leave.

Grandpa Hassan

D3PO wrote: »

He sounds like a cowboy landlord but you are a cowboy tennant too. You both need to grow up and learn about your individual responsibilities as a LL and tenant.

The tenant (well not really a tenant, just a licensee renting a room) has zero responsibility. Neither does the LL. This is not a tenant / LL relationship

The OP should withhold rent in lieu of the deposit if it cannot be agreed with the LL. Sound like there is zero chance of the OP getting any deposit back if the last months rent were to be paid in full. Not only is the LL uncooperative, there is no agreement in place. My concern would be with the LL though....he sounds like he could get very aggressive.

D3PO

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The tenant (well not really a tenant, just a licensee renting a room) has zero responsibility. Neither does the LL. This is not a tenant / LL relationship

The OP should withhold rent in lieu of the deposit if it cannot be agreed with the LL. Sound like there is zero chance of the OP getting any deposit back if the last months rent were to be paid in full. Not only is the LL uncooperative, there is no agreement in place. My concern would be with the LL though....he sounds like he could get very aggressive.

When I made my comment there was no clarity as to weather this was a tenanncy or licencee situation. We now know its the latter.

as to the OP witholding the rent as a licenee the owner read LL is within his or her rights to jsut kick her out the door that day. The OP has no rights I think its very foolish and irresponsible for anybody to suggest they withold the rent given the situation.

Not that I would agree to it if it was a tennancy anyway.

Grandpa Hassan

D3PO wrote: »

When I made my comment there was no clarity as to weather this was a tenanncy or licencee situation. We now know its the latter.

as to the OP witholding the rent as a licenee the owner read LL is within his or her rights to jsut kick her out the door that day. The OP has no rights I think its very foolish and irresponsible for anybody to suggest they withold the rent given the situation.

Not that I would agree to it if it was a tennancy anyway.

That is the decision to be made by the OP isn't it. It seems almost certain that the deposit will not be returned. So the OP needs to make a choice between two not very attractive outcomes: being out of pocket or potentially being thrown out

runawaybishop

Didn't realise the OP was a licensee. OP, just move out asap.

dottybows

runawaybishop wrote: »

Didn't realise the OP was a licensee. OP, just move out asap.

If this was an option I would do it asap, but I have to work until the 26th and then I'm moving to Mayo that weekend.

I will have to try and talk to him about the deposit being used as rent and if he doesn't let me do that then that's a clear sign that he doesn't want to give me the money anyway.

I can't wait for this to be over.

runawaybishop

dottybows wrote: »

If this was an option I would do it asap, but I have to work until the 26th and then I'm moving to Mayo that weekend.

I will have to try and talk to him about the deposit being used as rent and if he doesn't let me do that then that's a clear sign that he doesn't want to give me the money anyway.

I can't wait for this to be over.

Ask for a meeting about the deposit now, so you can gauge his reaction - you can just say you want to make sure there are no issues you need to clear up before you leave at the end of the month.

D3PO

dottybows wrote: »

I will have to try and talk to him about the deposit being used as rent and if he doesn't let me do that then that's a clear sign that he doesn't want to give me the money anyway.

.

No its not its a clear sign that he wants a deposit. The depositisi to prevent you trashing the room and or leaving a load of bills in your wake when you swanny off to Mayo.

If he allows the deposit be used as the last month theres nothign to prevent you trashing the bedroom and leaving without paying your share of ESB, UPC or whatever other communal bills exist.

You may say you have no intention to damage anything and that everything is in good condition but thats not the point. The deposit is there to ensure that is the case.

dottybows

D3PO wrote: »

No its not its a clear sign that he wants a deposit. The depositisi to prevent you trashing the room and or leaving a load of bills in your wake when you swanny off to Mayo.

If he allows the deposit be used as the last month theres nothign to prevent you trashing the bedroom and leaving without paying your share of ESB, UPC or whatever other communal bills exist.

You may say you have no intention to damage anything and that everything is in good condition but thats not the point. The deposit is there to ensure that is the case.

Wow, you are clearly some disgruntled landlord.I have in the past two years in this place ALWAYS paid my bills and rent. He was the one who never held up his end of the bargain. If I pay the rent now and "swanny off to mayo" as you so nicely put it, whats to stop him from saying "sorry but I don't want to give you back the deposit" just because he can?
I will be the one out of pocket and if I read up right, as a licencee I would't even have a case at the PRTB because he isn't a registered landlord.

dottybows

Thank you for all the helpful info everyone.

D3PO

dottybows wrote: »

Wow, you are clearly some disgruntled landlord.I have in the past two years in this place ALWAYS paid my bills and rent. He was the one who never held up his end of the bargain. If I pay the rent now and "swanny off to mayo" as you so nicely put it, whats to stop him from saying "sorry but I don't want to give you back the deposit" just because he can?
I will be the one out of pocket and if I read up right, as a licencee I would't even have a case at the PRTB because he isn't a registered landlord.

Im not a landlord actually.

Re your question about deposit retention unfortunatly there is not a lot you can do if he decided to do that as you are correct your not covered by PRTB.

Your essentially nothing more than a houseguest. There are no proper provisions for rent a room scenarios i this country which is another thing thats wrong with the overall rental legislation we have in this country.

However that said two wrongs do not make a right. There is a reason deposits are taken and its not to cover the last months rent. By all means refuse to pay it but be aware hes perfectly entitled to kick you out the door that evening and you can do nothing about it.

Being pregnant Im not sure Id want to take the risk but thats entirely your perogative.

Im just spelling out what a deposit is for as Im assuming your next rental will actually be one and not a rent a room agreement in which case you should realise what its there for.

As for saying swanny off to Mayo I ysed the term to make a very specific point, there would be nothing preventing you smashing up the room and swannying off the Mayo and leaving a wake of damage that the homeowner has no money to offset against.

Again weather you intend to do or intent to leave like that or with outstanding utility bills or not is irrelevent the reasoning behind the deposit is all that is relevent in terms of this discussion.

D3PO

Given the homeowner is living there 2-3 days a week it would be kind of bizzare that he would be willing to live in a freezing house with no heating and a wrecked couch, perhaps youd like to reclarify the exact issues as it doesnt seem to add up.

magicmushroom

I don't really see the problem, just go without paying and leave him the deposit - he has treated you badly so why should you care about leaving on good terms? You have far more important things to worry about now.

So long as you really are leaving your room in perfect condition, no broken items, no outstanding bills - just go. I would.
He has the deposit so he won't be left out of pocket.

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but if I was in your position I wouldn't be willing to take the risk of losing my deposit, every penny counts when you're having a baby so look after yourself first before worrying about the landlord.

Best of luck!

jmayo

I just love how certain folk always demand that tenants pay their last months rent because it is the right thing to do and it is what is owed, whilst at the same time it is as clear as the nose on your face that the landlord has no intention of playing by the rules and will not return the deposit.

Sometimes "the right thing" to do is the damm stupid thing to do.

Anyway OP good luck with both moving back to Mayo and the baby.

D3PO

like I have said on here ad nauseum. Two wrongs dont make a right.

The system is the problem. As The Conductor said on a different thread yesterday the whole deposit system regarding rent needs a major overhaul.

It also has to be acknowledged that as a licencee the OP could concievable be kicked out on her ass by trying this as she has no rights at all from a tenancy perspective. Might sound extreme and perhaps unlikely but its a possibility and one that should be consider seriously before being done.

re actual tenants and deposit retention . Granted its a pain but at least if they have a deposit retained they have recourse via the PRTB and will get it back at some point although not in a timely manner.

The_Conductor

Dotty- Please let me know if you'd like this thread closed.
Kind regards,

The_Conductor

Grandpa Hassan

D3PO wrote: »

No its not its a clear sign that he wants a deposit. The depositisi to prevent you trashing the room and or leaving a load of bills in your wake when you swanny off to Mayo.

If he allows the deposit be used as the last month theres nothign to prevent you trashing the bedroom and leaving without paying your share of ESB, UPC or whatever other communal bills exist.

You may say you have no intention to damage anything and that everything is in good condition but thats not the point. The deposit is there to ensure that is the case.

The LL is far more likely to keep the deposit than the OP trash the room!!!

D3PO

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The LL is far more likely to keep the deposit than the OP trash the room!!!

as true as his maybe and can be used in a more generalised LL V Tenant deposit debate that has no merit.

The deposit is provided and recieved for a specific set of circumstances to be covered. It cannot be assumed that one party or the other will fail to abide by the deposit conditions.

It has to be assumed that the mechanism for which a deposit is provided will be appropriatly applied.

This is the thought process that needs to be accepted and used for the reformation of the whole deposit crisis in the Irish rental market.

Grandpa Hassan

D3PO wrote: »

as true as his maybe and can be used in a more generalised LL V Tenant deposit debate that has no merit.

The deposit is provided and recieved for a specific set of circumstances to be covered. It cannot be assumed that one party or the other will fail to abide by the deposit conditions.

It has to be assumed that the mechanism for which a deposit is provided will be appropriatly applied.

This is the thought process that needs to be accepted and used for the reformation of the whole deposit crisis in the Irish rental market.

But the deposit 'crisis' is no different in London or anywhere else when it comes to 'rent-a-room'.

The UK has great deposit protection for tenants, with independent inventory checks etc. And that needs to be brought in for Ireland asap. But there is no protection for those that rent rooms in shared houses. Deposit is effectively used as the last months rent in the overwhelming majority of cases. The LL or the others in the house just have to nmake sure that they find themselves a good flatmate who isn't going to intentionally trash the place on their last day, or else run off without paying their share of bills.

The introduction of mandatory deposit protection etc for flatshares would be impractical. Turnover is too high.

D3PO

How do we know unless we try ?

I hand on heart couldnt give you any idea how high the turnover is on flatshares or rent a room agreements. The data doesnt exist any assumption would be based on nothing more than assumption.

Shadylou

If I were you I'd use the deposit as your last months rent.....if the place is perfect then it's the same thing really