Problem with Dobermans IKC

angeliukas92

hey guys!

Well don't know where to start .
So 4 years ago i bought a dobbie for 550 which said IKC reg, microchiped , all vaccinations done, When we went to buy a pup the breeder said he didn't receive the IKC reg yet as he should have so just pop our info down and he will send it to us. We saw the pup parents real dobbies saw the Doc of the parents .
But the IKC reg never actually come , i tried to get contact with the breeder but never got in contact until he changed his number.
Now i really need that piece of paper for breeding my dog, Even dough i know that he is a real dobbie and his health is perfect , he is microchiped and the vaccinations carried out up to date but it's not enough for the bitches owners.
What should i do ? The only info i have is his date of birth and the vaccination book where is was vaccinated for the first time.
Is there any possibility of i don't know what asking vet to carry out all the test to confirm that he is a real dobbie for the IKC to give a IKC Reg ? Help ! It's just wrecking my head

andreac

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do. Only the breeder can register the pups. Can you not call back to the house where you bought the pup and demand the papers?
Although doubt you will get anywhere as they sound like back yard dodgy breeders.
Have you health tested your dobe for a start if you are considering breeding? As in all the relative Health screening for dobermanns? Ie hip scoring etc.
No one should consider breeding unless everything is above board and unfortunately in your case it isn't so I wouldn't even consider it until you get everything in order and the health tears done.

mosi

How did you find this breeder? Online or through another source? It sounds suspicious that you never received the papers. There have been a few posts on here from people who have had similar happen to them. It's often a ploy of backyard breeders and puppy farmers.
You say you cannot contact the breeder, due to a change of phone number. Did you view the pup at the breeder's home? Would you have an address that you could visit? I guess you could contact the IKC to see if they ever received a registration off this person that corresponds with your dog' microchip. BTW, are you sure that the dog was microchipped?
TBH, I imagine that the dog was never registered.You won't be able to have him registered, it is solely the breeder's responsibility and there is nothing that you or your vet can do about that.
Can I ask you, why do you want to breed from him? Without IKC registration, he won't have been able to prove himself in the show ring as an example of the breed. When you say his health is perfect, in what sense do you mean that? Do you mean that he is currently in good health or that he has had the various tests done to check for conditions that the breed is prone to?

angeliukas92

andreac wrote: »

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do. Only the breeder can register the pups. Can you not call back to the house where you bought the pup and demand the papers?
Although doubt you will get anywhere as they sound like back yard dodgy breeders.
Have you health tested your dobe for a start if you are considering breeding? As in all the relative Health screening for dobermanns? Ie hip scoring etc.
No one should consider breeding unless everything is above board and unfortunately in your case it isn't so I wouldn't even consider it until you get everything in order and the health tears done.

yes my dog goes to vet regular and he is one healthy dobbie so no worries about that, just the papers thing is bad .
Long distance that why i didn't call back to the house.

angeliukas92

mosi wrote: »

How did you find this breeder? Online or through another source? It sounds suspicious that you never received the papers. There have been a few posts on here from people who have had similar happen to them. It's often a ploy of backyard breeders and puppy farmers.
You say you cannot contact the breeder, due to a change of phone number. Did you view the pup at the breeder's home? Would you have an address that you could visit? I guess you could contact the IKC to see if they ever received a registration off this person that corresponds with your dog' microchip. BTW, are you sure that the dog was microchipped?
TBH, I imagine that the dog was never registered.You won't be able to have him registered, it is solely the breeder's responsibility and there is nothing that you or your vet can do about that.
Can I ask you, why do you want to breed from him? Without IKC registration, he won't have been able to prove himself in the show ring as an example of the breed. When you say his health is perfect, in what sense do you mean that? Do you mean that he is currently in good health or that he has had the various tests done to check for conditions that the breed is prone to?

I found the pups in donedeal , the breeder was in cavan . I looked at the pups in his back garden , the parents and the pups had a separate cages .
i can't remember the address but i'm sure if i drive trough the cavan i maybe can find them, but they are only rented the place so they might have moved . I got 2 doc a vaccination book , it only showed dobbies D.O.B and the microchip form with the chips no. I registered him online on my address and name. The vet scanned trough and the chips no. matched , She wanted to try find the parents in a kennel club but sure we didn't think then for putting him as a stud, but now people ask can they take my dog as a stud but there is no documents for the pups .. He gets checked up with a vet every year ones or twice .

andreac

angeliukas92 wrote: »

yes my dog goes to vet regular and he is one healthy dobbie so no worries about that, just the papers thing is bad .
Long distance that why i didn't call back to the house.

No, that is not enough. I mean the proper health tests for the breed, specific ones like hip and elbow scoring, heart or eye tests, or whatever tests that dobermanns need. Normal vet checks are not enough.

I'm sorry but you should not even be considering breeding unless all this is in place along with the ikc papers.
If you did use your dog at stud then the puppies will never be allowed to be registered with the ikc so please do not do this.

Go and find your breeder and get it sorted but I'd imagine with them being on donedeal that will not happen.
Maybe on future do proper research on breeders and go through the ikc or the Dobermann club of Ireland for reputable breeders.

angeliukas92

andreac wrote: »

No, that is not enough. I mean the proper health tests for the breed, specific ones like hip and elbow scoring, heart or eye tests, or whatever tests that dobermanns need. Normal vet checks are not enough.

I'm sorry but you should not even be considering breeding unless all this is in place along with the ikc papers.
If you did use your dog at stud then the puppies will never be allowed to be registered with the ikc so please do not do this.

Go and find your breeder and get it sorted but I'd imagine with them being on donedeal that will not happen.
Maybe on future do proper research on breeders and go through the ikc or the Dobermann club of Ireland for reputable breeders.

I mean that my dobbie get all the health test done that he needs and he is okey .. if i wasn't sure and so 100% positive to bread him, i would not. the problem is the IKC reg.

kylith

An annual vet check isn't enough for breeding, unfortunately. You'd need to get eye, hip, and possibly elbow scores, along with tests for any other breed specific ailments that may be relevant. Of course it's all moot unless you have the IKC registration. Hopefully you'll be able to track the breeder down.

andreac

angeliukas92 wrote: »

I mean that my dobbie get all the health test done that he needs and he is okey .. if i wasn't sure and so 100% positive to bread him, i would not. the problem is the IKC reg.

I don't think you understand me. Regular normal vet checks are not enough. There are special tests specific for every breed that need to be done on your dog before breeding.
Is your dog hip scored?

mosi

angeliukas92 wrote: »

I found the pups in donedeal , the breeder was in cavan . I looked at the pups in his back garden , the parents and the pups had a separate cages .
i can't remember the address but i'm sure if i drive trough the cavan i maybe can find them, but they are only rented the place so they might have moved . I got 2 doc a vaccination book , it only showed dobbies D.O.B and the microchip form with the chips no. I registered him online on my address and name. The vet scanned trough and the chips no. matched , She wanted to try find the parents in a kennel club but sure we didn't think then for putting him as a stud, but now people ask can they take my dog as a stud but there is no documents for the pups .. He gets checked up with a vet every year ones or twice .

To be honest, it sounds like a backyard breeder or puppy farmer. Done Deal is polluted with these types who make everything sound legitimate to a buyer. IKC registration itself doesn't mean that a dog is from a good breeder...but when IKC registration is promised, but never arrives, that really signals something dodgy. From what you have said, I doubt the pups were ever registered. If that is indeed the case, then you should forget about breeding from him.
When it comes to breeding, there is more to health than routine check ups at the vet. There are specific hereditary conditions that need to be tested for...Dobies are prone to quite a few. With some conditions, a dog may not even be affected but they may still be able to pass the condition on to their progeny.

angeliukas92

andreac wrote: »

I don't think you understand me. Regular normal vet checks are not enough. There are special tests specific for every breed that need to be done on your dog before breeding.
Is your dog hip scored?

i mean we did all the test for dobbies that are required for his bread . We'll i don't have any knowledge but it says a hip score of 9 . and the vet said he is a perfect doberman dog . So i'm happy that his heath is perfect .

borderlinemeath

angeliukas92 wrote: »

yes my dog goes to vet regular and he is one healthy dobbie so no worries about that, just the papers thing is bad .
Long distance that why i didn't call back to the house.

I don't think you realise what health checks are necessary for breeding. The majority of purebred dogs can suffer from various health disorders and diseases - some of which are inherited or genetic and this is why health testing - not just vet checks are vitally important. No dog should be bred from if they suffer from anything that is likely to jeopardise the health of it's offspring, it doesn't matter if you have the bitch or the sire - both should be tested.

Dobermans can suffer from a good few diseases that can be passed on to their offspring. Dilated Cardiomyopathy, a problem with the heart where the heart muscle is weakened and can't pump the blood efficiently around the body. Another problem can be Von Willebrands Disease, a problem where the blood doesn't clot efficiently. This can effect any surgeries that dog may need or some cases are so severe that a small cut can lead to major blood loss. Another common disease is Cervical Vertibral Instability also known as Wobblers disease, as well as more widespread problems such as hip dysplasia.

Do some research on the above conditions and see how it effects the breed. For hip dysplasia an xray can determine whether your dog has acceptable hip scores. A hell of a lot of dobies develop dilated cardiomyopathy and it accounts for a lot of deaths in the breed and it has been noted that it is a genetically inherited disease. VWd can be also be tested for. But none of these tests are included in the general vet check, it's far more specific than that.

andreac

So did you get X-rays done on your dog and send them to the UK to be graded? Have you got the cert from the BVA?

DBB

It's easy enough to find out if the breeder registered the pups, if you have the microchip number, then the IKC should have a record of the pup... If he's registered, that is.
If not, then without finding the breeder, you simply won't be able to register him. In which case you're one of many, many people who have fallen for the "the papers are in the post" line which is so commonly experienced with donedeal breeders. Really, there's not that much of an excuse for breeders not to have the relevant paperwork ready to go by the time they're selling their pups. If they don't have it ready, it'd raise my eyebrow and I'd delay the deal until the breeder had fulfilled his side of the deal.

angeliukas92

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I don't think you realise what health checks are necessary for breeding. The majority of purebred dogs can suffer from various health disorders and diseases - some of which are inherited or genetic and this is why health testing - not just vet checks are vitally important. No dog should be bred from if they suffer from anything that is likely to jeopardise the health of it's offspring, it doesn't matter if you have the bitch or the sire - both should be tested.

Dobermans can suffer from a good few diseases that can be passed on to their offspring. Dilated Cardiomyopathy, a problem with the heart where the heart muscle is weakened and can't pump the blood efficiently around the body. Another problem can be Von Willebrands Disease, a problem where the blood doesn't clot efficiently. This can effect any surgeries that dog may need or some cases are so severe that a small cut can lead to major blood loss. Another common disease is Cervical Vertibral Instability also known as Wobblers disease, as well as more widespread problems such as hip dysplasia.

Do some research on the above conditions and see how it effects the breed. For hip dysplasia an xray can determine whether your dog has acceptable hip scores. A hell of a lot of dobies develop dilated cardiomyopathy and it accounts for a lot of deaths in the breed and it has been noted that it is a genetically inherited disease. VWd can be also be tested for. But none of these tests are included in the general vet check, it's far more specific than that.

well i read about the test before getting my dobbie and i knew something about it. As much as i love my dog i pay massive money for my dog to get him checked inside outside for everything that is common or not so common in dobbies . So i really trust my Vet by him saying he is health but we have to check the dobbie ones a year ..
this what he gets done :
CARDIOMYOPATHY
HIP DYSPLASIA
HYPOTHYROIDISM
vWd
WOBBLER'S SYNDROME
PRA

angeliukas92

DBB wrote: »

It's easy enough to find out if the breeder registered the pups, if you have the microchip number, then the IKC should have a record of the pup... If he's registered, that is.
If not, then without finding the breeder, you simply won't be able to register him. In which case you're one of many, many people who have fallen for the "the papers are in the post" line which is so commonly experienced with donedeal breeders. Really, there's not that much of an excuse for breeders not to have the relevant paperwork ready to go by the time they're selling their pups. If they don't have it ready, it'd raise my eyebrow and I'd delay the deal until the breeder had fulfilled his side of the deal.

okey let me get my head around. when my dog was microchiped did the vet register him ?? because i got a fido.ie brocure to fill in like and there was sticker on the thing saying what his microchip number was. So then i payed the fee to fido.ie and registered him on my self with the microchip number

angeliukas92

I can see what you are talking about, just after downloading a ikc form 18 . for reg of pup and it does require a microchip bar code sticker !! other Q . When you get the dog microshiped i mean a pup do you get 2 stickers or one ? because the barcode sticker was on the fido.ie form. Any ways guys i'll email the IKC right now and find out ) Thank youu DBB!!
This is what i Actually wanted to know . i'm not that kind of person who would breed a dog which is not capable , has a disease or something like that . I want to bread him not for the money , just for his wanting . My dobbie is my baby i take the best care i can ))

DBB

angeliukas92 wrote: »

okey let me get my head around. when my dog was microchiped did the vet register him ?? because i got a fido.ie brocure to fill in like and there was sticker on the thing saying what his microchip number was. So then i payed the fee to fido.ie and registered him on my self with the microchip number

If the breeder had registered the pup with the IKC, then the IKC would have the pup's microchip number... It's a condition of registration (since 2006) that pups must be chipped to be registered, and all registration papers since 2006 have the dog's chip number on them. Therefore, the IKC should have a record of your pup via the chip, if he's registered with them.
I'm not sure how helpful the IKC would be, but a phone call to them would be a very quick way to find out if your dog was ever registered, or not.

DBB

angeliukas92 wrote: »

other Q . When you get the dog microshiped i mean a pup do you get 2 stickers or one ?

There are usually a few stickers with each chip, one for the IKC reg form, one for the microchip booklet itself, one for the microchip registration form, and one for the vaccination card.

angeliukas92

DBB wrote: »

If the breeder had registered the pup with the IKC, then the IKC would have the pup's microchip number... It's a condition of registration (since 2006) that pups must be chipped to be registered, and all registration papers since 2006 have the dog's chip number on them. Therefore, the IKC should have a record of your pup via the chip, if he's registered with them.
I'm not sure how helpful the IKC would be, but a phone call to them would be a very quick way to find out if your dog was ever registered, or not.

You just made my day !!:D:D We'll i don't blame the people like i know stuff happens .. So i really hope, trust i don't know what , that my dobbie actually has a IKC reg.
I would love to take him to kennels, he went trough basic training and security training and it was expensive :eek:

angeliukas92

DBB wrote: »

There are usually a few stickers with each chip, one for the IKC reg form, one for the microchip booklet itself, one for the microchip registration form, and one for the vaccination card.

:mad: i only got vaccination card with the vaccinations and microchip no. and the microchip registration form .
ok never mind the IKC reg is the only i thing i need .. So i'll call in to IKC and see how it goes . Will text back to say how did it go !!

DBB

angeliukas92 wrote: »

:mad: i only got vaccination card with the vaccinations and microchip no. and the microchip registration form .

The breeder would have the remaining stickers, probably binned long ago. It's not a big deal. The chip number can just be written by hand on other documents should you wish.
Just be aware that even if your dog is registered, you'll have a battle on your hands getting his papers as the breeder is required to sign the change-of-owner document. I'm not sure if the IKC have any system in place for people in your position.

valerossi

Breeder was/is a backyard park timer looking to make money.
IKC are jokes anyway I keep GSD's and would never register them cause your just feeding the scam in my opinion. All they represent is a pure line not a good line, the amount of "pure"GSD's I've met with bad genes is remarkable nervous, oversized and that ridicules angled back is a joke.
I no you don't have a GSD but same goes selective breeding for looks is a big problem, if you thing you have something to offer the dober man blood line breed it if not sterilise the animal.
http://www.embracepetinsurance.com/dog-breeds/doberman-pinscher

ShaShaBear

And just as a side note, studding him out because of his "wanting" is pretty pointless unless he is a champion show/agility/trial dog who is exceptionally good at something and the owners of an equally talented bitch want to make sure that their pups inherit some or all of those exceptional traits.

How did you source the bitch? Is she a show-winner? Has SHE had her tests done? Is SHE healthy?

At the risk of sounding really cruel to you, your dog's apparent horniness is not a reason to inadvertently put a litter of unhealthy or badly-bred Dob pups into the pound.

angeliukas92

Guys , you all just look like you want to put me under ground. It doesn't mean that if i get the ikc reg that straigth away i will put him up for stud . No! I will repeat all the required test for dobbie , sign him up to a kennel. And then i might put him up as a stud . But i will require the same from the bitch . What if she have fiv and other desease that dobbie has. Letting out pups that are unhealthy is not my way .

ShaShaBear

angeliukas92 wrote: »

Guys , you all just look like you want to put me under ground. It doesn't mean that if i get the ikc reg that straigth away i will put him up for stud . No! I will repeat all the required test for dobbie , sign him up to a kennel. And then i might put him up as a stud . But i will require the same from the bitch . What if she have fiv and other desease that dobbie has. Letting out pups that are unhealthy is not my way .

You said that you have already found a bitch, so naturally we are curious as to what demands you made as to her health before the owners refused your dog as a stud.
Breeding two dogs just because they are purebred is not good enough. After getting IKC papers, what makes your dog better than all other dogs of the same breed? What competitions has it won, what awards has he received that proves he is better at something than all other dogs in that same competition?

Or is he simply a Doberman that may or may not be purebred that doesn't appear to have health problems? That's really not good enough.

angeliukas92

I think there is enough homeless pups and dog that whore trown out as a litter. And unhealthy dogs that whore given to the shelters . So why would any one in any means breed unhealthy pups. I know people just breed dogs only having the ikc reg ant they think oh thats fine we can register the pups any ways make bigger money . But they don't think thats wrong not knowing the health of the pup parents not taking them to the vet to carry on the test that are required. Okey my dobbie cost me 700 euro to the vet . But so ? It's worth it ! I know that he is one healthy in side out healthy. And from regular test if some deasease came along it would not be late to stop lt .

angeliukas92

ShaShaBear wrote: »

You said that you have already found a bitch, so naturally we are curious as to what demands you made as to her health before the owners refused your dog as a stud.
Breeding two dogs just because they are purebred is not good enough. After getting IKC papers, what makes your dog better than all other dogs of the same breed? What competitions has it won, what awards has he received that proves he is better at something than all other dogs in that same competition?

Or is he simply a Doberman that may or may not be purebred that doesn't appear to have health problems? That's really not good enough.

I said that the owners are asking. I can not get a place any where for the dobbie because he doesn't have ikc reg . I think you know your self. If i will get ikc i will take him to competitions . And then put him up for studs maybe !!

andreac

Why do you want to stud him anyway?

ShaShaBear

angeliukas92 wrote: »

Now i really need that piece of paper for breeding my dog, Even dough i know that he is a real dobbie and his health is perfect , he is microchiped and the vaccinations carried out up to date but it's not enough for the bitches owners.

From this I assumed that the bitch's owners have refused your dog for stud as they do not have proof of him being IKC registered. Which suggests that you either already offered your dog as a stud to them, or that they asked you could you stud your dog to them. If you do not have papers and he has not won anything, then you shouldn't even offer him as a stud because there will eventually be someone just like the breeder you dealt with that will breed the dogs and pretend the pups are registered and the cycle starts again.

I should also clarify that just because you saw papers for two Dobermans, and you saw two Dobermans outside in a cage DOES NOT MEAN your Doberman is purebred.

angeliukas92

Ok angry people and with a dobbies who are super duper champs and all the bull ****, stop attacking me. My decision is my decision ! Only Q in this forum i wanted to ask how could i receive the IKC or find out even if it was put trough ! I got my answer , Called in to IKC today they said it's possible to check just put email trough with his microchip code and she will get trough as soon as she can and then she will see what she can do . Waiting on reply .

ShaShaBear

angeliukas92 wrote: »

Ok angry people and with a dobbies who are super duper champs and all the bull ****, stop attacking me. My decision is my decision ! Only Q in this forum i wanted to ask how could i receive the IKC or find out even if it was put trough ! I got my answer , Called in to IKC today they said it's possible to check just put email trough with his microchip code and she will get trough as soon as she can and then she will see what she can do . Waiting on reply .

No-one here said they had "super duper champs" Doberman dogs. What we did say is that you should not be considering breeding a dog that you took out of a cage in a back-yard in Cavan who has not even competed. There is nothing proven to be genetically special or exemplary about your Doberman, so it makes sense that no reputable or welfare-conscious bitch-owner would approach you asking for your dog as a stud. It also makes sense that, knowing you do not have legal papers for your dog and knowing that the breeder you bought him off could well have presented you with the papers of ANY two Doberman dogs (and thus you don't even know that you have a purebreed), it makes sense that you would not offer your dog as a stud to anyone, as you do not factually know the health or genetic lines and ancestry of your dog.

Health tests only show how your dog is doing right now, not how they will be in a few years time, or whether they are likely to pass recessive negative genetic illnesses onto their offspring.

Coming on to a public forum and mentioning you are considering breeding a dog you bought from a backyard breeder who currently has no papers, who has no genetic ancestry information and who has never competed at any level, simply because you think he is feeling randy, is sort of like dropping a grenade without the pin and expecting people to ignore the fact that you dropped it.