Run down and sore after long slow runs

Tigerandahalf

Hey all

I have been running about 7/8 months. I played some Gaelic up until recently so would be reasonably fit. I am not overweight so in pretty decent condition for running. I have no history with major injuries.
I have done a couple of 10k races and an 8k. Next up is the Craughwell 10k and then the half at Connemara.
I am not following any exact running plan but generally I'm trying to have a structure that revolves around a midweek run of about 10k, a tempo 5k run on a Saturday and a LSR on a Sunday of about 22k. Some weekends I would have a race so wouldn't do anything for few days before the race.

After my LSR last night I felt really tired and run down, the sort of run down you feel before you come down with something. Today I'm feeling fairly ok but a bit stiff and sore. I have had an issue with my right hip/glute area for a month or so and am doing a few exercises/stretches to help it. I went to the physio and he advised me. My LSR pace would be about 5 - 5.20 min/km. I find this pace quite comfortable and my heart rate averages around 155 - 165 bpm.

How do others feel after their LSRs. I am generally a person who needs a lot of sleep, a minimum of 8/9 hours. Otherwise I get a lot of mouth ulcers, even after one poor night of sleep.

Do any of you take a multi-vitamin after your runs. I find Berocca would keep me awake if I had it after 4/5pm. Does the body need a boost after runs or are they a waste of time. I have had bloods done in the last year and everything was fine. I am on anti-biotics at the moment for a separate thing so maybe they are having an effect.

Sorry for the long post but some advise would be great.

HelenAnne

When I first started doing long runs of more than ten miles I felt really, really sleepy those nights. Now I'd generally be ok unless it was a particularly long distance, but my solution at the beginning was just to go to bed earlier. I think more sleep helps a lot with running, and with your immune system etc (if you can get it -- I know with work / kids etc it can be hard for some people).

spurscormac

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Do any of you take a multi-vitamin after your runs. I find Berocca would keep me awake if I had it after 4/5pm. Does the body need a boost after runs or are they a waste of time. I have had bloods done in the last year and everything was fine. I am on anti-biotics at the moment for a separate thing so maybe they are having an effect.

Sorry for the long post but some advise would be great.

I suspect that right there would be the reason. Ease off on your running load while on medication I would say - though you should get advice from your Doc on that too.
Also make sure that every 4/5/6 weeks, you do an "easy" week where you pull back the mileage a little to let the body fully recover.

You need to make sure you're getting enough rest between runs, and that you're not overdoing it on non-session runs.
Hard runs hard, easy runs easy.
You get no benefit from running easy runs hard, you only end up running yourself down.

Tigerandahalf

Cheers for replies.
The antibiotics could be having an effect though had issues before I went on them. They can be harsh on the stomach.
I think my body needs time to recover from runs. Otherwise my legs would be sluggish.
I am going for a swim tonight and that should help to ease the muscles. Normally I would wait until Wed eve to do my next run. I normally play soccer on a Monday night and this can really kill the legs thus why I do my next run on the Wednesday.

vitani

Do you run at all during the week apart from the three sessions you mentioned? 22k for a LSR is a lot if you're only doing 15k during the rest of the week.

Other than that, as spurscormac mentioned, you need a stepback week every few weeks where you bring down your mileage and give yourself time to recover.

Tigerandahalf

I gave myself a recovery week last week. I had just one 8k run. That was mainly due to tightness/soreness in my glute/hip area.
As I play a 5 a side soccer game on a Monday night this can limit my other sessions during the week. If I was to run on a Tues and Thurs this would mean I would be doing something every day of the week except Wed and Fri. Maybe that is what I should be aiming for. But the Tues and Thur sessions would have to be handy, no intervals.
I do a tempo 5k on Sat against the clock so try to be fresh for that.
At the moment I am doing swimming every Mon eve as well. I normally try to fit in another swimming session during the week. These are not heavy, more recovery.

Maybe it will just take time for my body to adjust. I do think a recovery week every month or so is a good idea. What with stuff on at weekends that would happen anyway.

Tigerandahalf

Do many of you take supplements like vitamin D3, lysine (amino acid) or a multivitamin. I sometimes take a lysine as it helps with mouth ulcers and being run down apparently.
After my LSR last night I drank a couple of glasses of water with some table salt in them. I tend to sweat a lot and know I am losing salts. I then supped on a bottle of a water for the rest of the evening. I could lose about a kilo after a lsr.
I am generally very good at eating fruit and veg. I snack on fruit a lot. I know I need to drink more water throughout the day.

menoscemo

I'd say your main problem is that you are doing your 2 hardest runs (tempo and Long run) back to back. You are also probably running your Long run at too high an effort. Not sure of your race times to compare to your pace but 155-165 seems like a high effort (depending on your max HR).
Also you probably just don't have enough weekly mileage (or kilometreage :pac:) to justify a 22k Long run. I don't think that your long run should be any more than a third of your total weekly mileage.

Ososlo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Do many of you take supplements like vitamin D3, lysine (amino acid) or a multivitamin. I sometimes take a lysine as it helps with mouth ulcers and being run down apparently.
After my LSR last night I drank a couple of glasses of water with some table salt in them. I tend to sweat a lot and know I am losing salts. I then supped on a bottle of a water for the rest of the evening. I could lose about a kilo after a lsr.
I am generally very good at eating fruit and veg. I snack on fruit a lot. I know I need to drink more water throughout the day.

I'd agree with menoscemo in that you're probably running your longer run too fast and the back to back runs are not a great idea for most people.
I used to feel 'run down' like you after my longer runs but when I slowed them down to conversational-pace I felt much better. I used to suffer from salt loss and this made me feel horrible but when I slowed down I sweated less so didn't have this problem anymore.
I'd run them now at around 135bpm (so 75% of max hr of 185) so depending on your max hr maybe you are running them at too hard an effort.
You shouldn't really need any of those supplements if you have a healthy diet and your bloods are healthy.
If you do feel particularly awful after a long run then you could try Dioralyte (replacement salts) sachets rather than table salt (tastes a lot better!) but you'd be better off getting to the root of the matter really.

Tigerandahalf

I know myself it is a push to do the 2 runs on Saturday and Sunday but I try to push them as far apart as I can, as in early morning on Saturday and then late on Sunday evening. If my lsr is a hilly run I would skip the Saturday tempo run. The hilly run is going to push up the heart rate no matter what. I am doing the hilly lsr every third week to prepare for the half at Connemara. Otherwise the lsr is generally a flat circuit that I do a good few loops of.
Re midweek runs how slow or fast should they be? Is there any need for interval training if I am doing the tempo run on the Saturday?

PVincent

When you are on antibiotics, not only do they kill the bad bacteria, they also affect the good stuff, so your immunity goes down. Hence the tiredness. Not great therefore to be doing hard runs like your long run on antibiotics because you are only further diminishing your immunity. Anyway that said a great product called UDOs super 8 ( a probiotic capsule) are available in good health stores in the Fridge ... Buy two months supply for about €50 and they will make a difference to your immune system .

Tigerandahalf

PVincent wrote: »

When you are on antibiotics, not only do they kill the bad bacteria, they also affect the good stuff, so your immunity goes down. Hence the tiredness. Not great therefore to be doing hard runs like your long run on antibiotics because you are only further diminishing your immunity. Anyway that said a great product called UDOs super 8 ( a probiotic capsule) are available in good health stores in the Fridge ... Buy two months supply for about €50 and they will make a difference to your immune system .

I am taking that probiotic with the antibiotics. It does help. Otherwise your stomach can be torn apart.
I finish the antibiotics on Friday and dont have any hard runs up until then, so I will see how it works out.

menoscemo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I know myself it is a push to do the 2 runs on Saturday and Sunday but I try to push them as far apart as I can, as in early morning on Saturday and then late on Sunday evening. If my lsr is a hilly run I would skip the Saturday tempo run. The hilly run is going to push up the heart rate no matter what. I am doing the hilly lsr every third week to prepare for the half at Connemara. Otherwise the lsr is generally a flat circuit that I do a good few loops of.
Re midweek runs how slow or fast should they be? Is there any need for interval training if I am doing the tempo run on the Saturday?

There is no need for the Interval run because you don't run enough to get away with a tempo run and an interval run every week.
I would advise you to run more (start with an extra easy day per week and build up to 6-7 days) but barring that I would move your tempo run to midweek and do an easy run the day before your LSR. If you are worried about getting 10k midweek then do a warm up and cool down (i.e. 2.5k warmup, 5k tempo, 2.5k cool down).
Easy runs should be no faster than your LSR. LSR should be considerably slower than your goal Half Marathon pace. What time do you think you can run in connemara?

Tigerandahalf

I am not sure. I have done 10k in under 42 minutes and 8k under 34. 5k in 19.5 min. I reckon 1.45 could be achievable for a tough course like Connemara.

menoscemo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I am not sure. I have done 10k in under 42 minutes and 8k under 34. 5k in 19.5 min. I reckon 1.45 could be achievable for a tough course like Connemara.

You've plenty of pace anyway. 1:45 would be way too soft a target based on you 5 & 10k times. Conn is hard but not that hard (maybe worth a few minutes?).
Based on your 5-10k times your LSR pace looks fine (maybe a touch fast but not much). I'd just avoid doing the tempo run the day before as it will leave you tired out for the long run. As I said, do it earlier in the week. Otherwise there is just an element of being tired from Long runs until you get used to the distance. I think it is pretty normal for everyone building up the distance.

Tigerandahalf

I will have to see how it works out. Thanks for all the advice.
I am enjoying running since I got into it. I run on my own which I am enjoying for now. I am lucky to have a nice circuit near me. Otherwise I might never have got into it.
It is giving me a good focus and it is nice to have the races around different parts of the country to run and explore those parts. It is helping to keep my waist in check too.
I am hoping to do a marathon at some stage this year so am building upto that. The 10 mile at Craughwell is the next target.

rom

This should help you with paces and how fast you should be going. http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ put in your recent PB and then select training paces from the left.