A club to belong to.

topcatcbr

I don't have much time for organised religion. I don't believe in a God person/persons.

I was wondering if there is any religion/ moral club that doesn't have a god figure (not those Scientology clowns).

I was thinking along the lines of budism.

Has anyone any ideas.

PopePalpatine

Well, there's always humanism.

topcatcbr

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, there's always humanism.

Where do they meet b

PopePalpatine

I was about to suggest the "Sunday Assembly", but I'm guessing that travelling to Dublin every Sunday morning is probably unfeasible.

topcatcbr

I'm pretty happy being athiest /agnostic. It's just I am curious if anyone has come up with a belief system that doesn't rely on a supreme being. Again not Scientology.

Benny_Cake

The Unitarians? They have their historical roots in Christianity but there's no creed or statement of faith to subscribe to. There seem to be plenty of atheists and humanists who attend their services.

Otherwise, perhaps check out Meetup.com for something more informal.

Eramen

Platonism, Stoicism, Pali Buddhism (no other forms of Buddhism).

legspin

I may be wrong on this but there is I believe a thing called Non-Theistic Quakerism. As religions go I have always found the Quakers to be a thoroughly agreeable lot.

seamus

legspin wrote: »

I may be wrong on this but there is I believe a thing called Non-Theistic Quakerism. As religions goes I have always found the Quakers to be a thoroughly agreeable lot.

True story; I know a guy whose Dad died quite young (when he was a teenager), and as his Dad was a member of the Quakers, and he was the eldest son, the organisation paid him a generous grant for a number of years to assist in looking after the house/family.
Mildly archaic attitudes aside, the sentiment is thoroughly brilliant, you never hear of the big religious organisations providing practical support to bereaved families, despite having much bigger purses.

I forget the specifics, but the agreement was to pay him until he'd finished college or something, at which stage he could formally join the church and continue to receive the payments for another while, or go off and do his own thing.

legspin

seamus wrote: »

True story; I know a guy whose Dad died quite young (when he was a teenager), and as his Dad was a member of the Quakers, and he was the eldest son, the organisation paid him a generous grant for a number of years to assist in looking after the house/family.
Mildly archaic attitudes aside, the sentiment is thoroughly brilliant, you never hear of the big religious organisations providing practical support to bereaved families, despite having much bigger purses.

I forget the specifics, but the agreement was to pay him until he'd finished college or something, at which stage he could formally join the church and continue to receive the payments for another while, or go off and do his own thing.

I always found the story of Bournville to be a classic example of how folk were treated by Quakers. Of course, there are exceptions, Nixon being the most obvious example.

Off thread slightly : a good article on Nixon's Quakerism here.

http://www.kimopress.com/nixon.html

Benny_Cake

legspin wrote: »

I may be wrong on this but there is I believe a thing called Non-Theistic Quakerism. As religions goes I have always found the Quakers to be a thoroughly agreeable lot.

Definitely a minority among Quakers but nontheist Quakers exist - there are some discussion groups online. I know one who describes himself as being a humanist. Quakers have no creed or set of required beliefs but the vast majority of Irish Quakers would probably consider themselves to be Christian, certainly at the fairly liberal meeting I attend someone will often read from the Bible. So there may be a little too much "God talk" for the OP's taste.

legspin

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Definitely a minority among Quakers but nontheist Quakers exist - there are some discussion groups online. I know one who describes himself as being a humanist. Quakers have no creed or set of required beliefs but the vast majority of Irish Quakers would probably consider themselves to be Christian, certainly at the fairly liberal meeting I attend someone will often read from the Bible. So there may be a little too much "God talk" for the OP's taste.

The one reason why I couldn't go along with it.

smacl

Eramen wrote: »

Platonism, Stoicism, Pali Buddhism (no other forms of Buddhism).

Taoism / Daoism is typically practised as a philosophy without a God, though it does have some mythology and cosmology lurking in the background. I find some of the philosophical ideas useful, but have no idea if there are any groups practising in Ireland. You sometimes see tai chi groups also practising Taoism as tai chi is in itself essentially a Taoist practise.

Peregrinus

topcatcbr wrote: »

I'm pretty happy being athiest /agnostic. It's just I am curious if anyone has come up with a belief system that doesn't rely on a supreme being. Again not Scientology.

There are lots of belief systems that don't involve a supreme being.

The thing is, nowadays very few of them offer much in the way of structured, organised community, with premises, regular meetings, fellowship, study, etc. Humanists mostly don't go off to humanity sessions on Sunday mornings, or form themselves into humanist congregations, set up Sunday schools, etc.

A hundred years ago, you'd have been well set. You had things like the secular society (in Britain and the US; I doubt if they were active in Ireland) which quite consciously tried to preserve what they considered to be good in religious practice, and had a lot of very church-like practices without actually being a church. And there are a few groups still doing this - or doing it again - here and there, but I think nothing very major. Alain de Boton has written a book suggesting that this is what New Atheism is lacking, and advocating "Atheism 2.0" which would take this on board.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

The thing is, nowadays very few of them offer much in the way of structured, organised community, with premises, regular meetings, fellowship, study, etc. Humanists mostly don't go off to humanity sessions on Sunday mornings, or form themselves into humanist congregations, set up Sunday schools, etc.

It's a good point. If you don't believe in God, what exactly are you looking to get out of whatever it is you plan to practise?

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

It's a good point. If you don't believe in God, what exactly are you looking to get out of whatever it is you plan to practise?

To a large extent, much the same thing as religious people are looking for. Fellowship. Solidarity. The active support of like-minded friends. A shared commitment to engagement with a worthwhile ideal, and a common effort to realise that ideal in the world. A sense of working together for something that is worth working for.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

To a large extent, much the same thing as religious people are looking for. Fellowship. Solidarity. The active support of like-minded friends. A shared commitment to engagement with a worthwhile ideal, and a common effort to realise that ideal in the world. A sense of working together for something that is worth working for.

Scratch Taoism so, it is focussed more on self improvement through introspection than working towards collective goals. My knowledge of Buddhism is limited, but from the bit I've encounterd (some za zen meditation many years ago), it is similar.

Sounds like Atheist Ireland might be a better fit.

Peregrinus

Buddhism has a strong monastic component, which points strongly toward a communal, as well as individual, ethic.

But I think the question is, what are the OP's values, ideals and priorities? Sure, as an atheist, we know one thing that he doesn't believe, but if he wants to find any kind of fellowship and solidarity and shared commitment, isn't that going to be be built on something he does believe? A community service organisation like Rotary or Lions might appeal to him more than a Buddhist monastery. If he wants ritual there's always the Freemasons - there is a vague theism attached, I believe, but it's pretty amorphous. Or he could join an environmental network, or help establish and run a community garden, or something of the kind. But it crucially depends on him deciding what he thinks is worth doing, and then finding others who think the same, and getting some kind of structured effort going with them.

smacl

That's also why I pointed out Atheist Ireland, which to my mind has more to do with advocating a secular agenda than atheism per se, but still forms a non-religious community with shared goals relating to morality and ethics within society.

Peregrinus

Well, yes. But it may not be quite what the OP wants. AI is an advocacy group, whose main focus seems to be on influencing state action and policy. At the risk of bringing down outrage upon myself, Atheist Ireland is not the "Catholic Church" of atheism; it's more the "Iona Institute" of atheism. (At least, that's how it strikes me.) Not, I hasten to add, that all the criticisms made of the Iona Institute could be fairly applied to AI.

I think the Humanist Association of Ireland might be a bit closer to the mark?

smacl

Perhaps, but the OP specifically indicated that he/she 'had no time for organised religion' which would strongly suggest they do not want the "Catholic Church" of anything.

Peregrinus

It seems to me that what the OP wants is something that functions a bit like a church, but isn't actually a church because it isn't religious.

topcatcbr

smacl wrote: »

It's a good point. If you don't believe in God, what exactly are you looking to get out of whatever it is you plan to practise?

A community that has got a structure to celebrate life. Like coming of age (confirmation) child birth (baptism) death. In fact all the pagen rituals the church has taken over.

Peregrinus

The Humanist Association of Ireland celebrates milestone ceremonies like weddings, naming ceremonies and funerals. In Dublin they run monthly meetings usually featuring a talk, open discussion and socialising afterwards. They also have regional groups; I don't know how active those are. And they provide a humanist chaplaincy service, which offers non-religious counselling and support at times of stress or crisis.

Michael Nugent

Peregrinus wrote: »

At the risk of bringing down outrage upon myself, Atheist Ireland is not the "Catholic Church" of atheism; it's more the "Iona Institute" of atheism. (At least, that's how it strikes me.)

Clearly you are trying to close down debate and silence us. I demand that you apologize and give us €80,000.

Hotblack Desiato

topcatcbr wrote: »

A community that has got a structure to celebrate life. Like coming of age (confirmation) child birth (baptism) death. In fact all the pagen rituals the church has taken over.

Have you considered paganism?

r3nu4l

ninja900 wrote: »

Have you considered paganism?

Ah yeah but Paganism is still religion as it has structures for belief in 'Gods'.

weisses

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Clearly you are trying to close down debate and silence us. I demand that you apologize and give us €80,000.

At least your'e cheaper when it comes to pay-outs

weisses

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was wondering if there is any religion/ moral club that doesn't have a god figure (not those Scientology clowns).

Naturalism


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)

old hippy

smacl wrote: »

It's a good point. If you don't believe in God, what exactly are you looking to get out of whatever it is you plan to practise?

I'm guessing that some of us like being in groupings of loosely like minded people? The humanists were handing out fliers in our local last night, I did find myself thinking it would be an interesting change from the mainstream norms.

recedite

legspin wrote: »

I may be wrong on this but there is I believe a thing called Non-Theistic Quakerism.

It would be hard enough to locate some real live theistic Quakers to meet, without trying to find the non-theistic variety. Anyway, wouldn't that just be a "lapsed" Quaker?

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

It would be hard enough to locate some real live theistic Quakers to meet, without trying to find the non-theistic variety. Anyway, wouldn't that just be a "lapsed" Quaker?

No, there are active, practising, non-theistic Quakers.

I don't know whether there are any non-theistic Meetings, or whether non-theistic Quakers participate in the same Meetings as theistic Quakers. In Ireland, at any rate, since there are so few Meetings, I suspect it's the latter. In which case it might not be what the OP is looking for; I think he wants a nontheist group, not a group in which nontheists and theists are both welcome.

Benny_Cake

Nontheist Friends attend the same meetings as other Quakers. Meetings are held in silence so unless someone actually tells you, there is no way of knowing what someone's beliefs are. Quakers tend to prioritise practice and action over statements of belief and distrust creeds. I know of one nontheist who served as clerk (an administrative position) of a meeting for some years so it's certainly not an impediment to entering into the life of the society in full. As someone who has more of a traditional Christian perspective it's difficult for me to do justice to the next nontheist perspective but there is no shortage of information online.

That said, if I was to try to pin down the predominant ethos of Irish Quakerism, I would say it was largely liberal Christian, with an evangelical minority (particularly in the north). I've a feeling that there may be too many mentions of God for the OP's taste.

smacl

old hippy wrote: »

I'm guessing that some of us like being in groupings of loosely like minded people? The humanists were handing out fliers in our local last night, I did find myself thinking it would be an interesting change from the mainstream norms.

Agreed, which was why I asked. There's plenty of groups that regularly combine philosophy with some other activity (TCM, qigong, and Aikido), and others that provide social connectivity through activity without the philosophy (hill walking, book clubs, etc). Voluntary charity work could also be worth considering, as could local politics.

If the goals are a broader social network and/or a bit of self development and/or philosophical naval gazing and/or deeper involvement in the local community, personally I'd be throwing the net a good bit wider than humanism and the Quakers.

topcatcbr

Thanks for all the input.

Maybe its time to start the church of the godless or something along those lines.

I really feel there is a void in society that could be catered. There are many more nonbelievers then ever before in Ireland.

As a society that centred around the Christian church's we don't have any real choices outside the main urban areas.

whupdedo

The g a a are looking for members

recedite

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I know of one nontheist who served as clerk (an administrative position) of a meeting for some years so it's certainly not an impediment to entering into the life of the society in full.

He sounds more like a "Cultural Quaker" then. I don't think you can get away from the fact that it is a Christian religion, even if it is one that doesn't ask for too many direct affirmations from its members regarding their faith.
With family and social ties all intertwined within a small religious community, it might be difficult or undesirable for an individual to just break away from that community on purely theological grounds.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

He sounds more like a "Cultural Quaker" then. I don't think you can get away from the fact that it is a Christian religion, even if it is one that doesn't ask for too many direct affirmations from its members regarding their faith.

With family and social ties all intertwined within a small religious community, it might be difficult or undesirable for an individual to just break away from that community on purely theological grounds.

No, no, I think you misunderstand. Nontheist quakers aren't "cultural Quakers", and they don't have to operate some kind of don't ask, don't tell policy with regard to their nontheist beliefs. Quakerism is like Judaism or Buddhism in this regard; you absolutely can be a "good" Quaker/Jew/Buddhist and an atheist, and Quakers/Jews/Buddhists who are theists will affirm this. Atheism is not a reason for leaving, as far as the community is concerned.

But there might still be a sticking-point for the OP. While Quakerism welcomes atheists, it also welcomes theists (and theists are probably a majority) so the OP needs to be comfortable in a spiritual community whose members express their spiritual insights and aspirations in theist or atheist language, according to preference, and in which, despite the diversity in language, members understand themselves as participating in a common spiritual quest. If what the OP is looking for is a community that will affirm his atheism, Quakerism is probably not that community.

smacl

topcatcbr wrote: »

Thanks for all the input.

Maybe its time to start the church of the godless or something along those lines.

I really feel there is a void in society that could be catered. There are many more nonbelievers then ever before in Ireland.

As a society that centred around the Christian church's we don't have any real choices outside the main urban areas.

Why on earth would you want a place of worship if you're not worshipping anything. In my view, one of the worst bits of many large organised religions is actually the organisation, which is actually a significant social power structure that has no mandate. The type of people who are so often drawn to these power structures are just the people you would not like to put in positions of power.

Once you take away worship, priests and empty ritual, what are you left with that is worth keeping? There was an atheist assembly in Dublin discussed here. Didn't meet with much enthusiasm from folks here, myself included.

FWIW and as others have said, from those I've met, I think you could do far worse than joining the Quakers. Religion aside, all that I've met have been very decent folk, and I'd trust them far more than the likes of the atheist assembly mob.

Benny_Cake

recedite wrote: »

He sounds more like a "Cultural Quaker" then. I don't think you can get away from the fact that it is a Christian religion, even if it is one that doesn't ask for too many direct affirmations from its members regarding their faith.

Not in Ireland or most of the English speaking world it wouldn't (Quakers in Africa and parts of America have gone in a different direction and now have Protestant style church services, with pastors). Quakerism is rooted In Christianity and the 17th century founders not only saw themselves as Christians, they saw themselves as the only true church. Things have evolved considerably since then, and in the 20th century, some Quakers in the more liberal branch started TV no longer consider themselves as Christian, but identified as Buddhist, pagan or nontheist. The majority would still identify as Christians, and Quakers participate in councils of churches in most countries. That doesn't make a non-Christian any less a Quaker though. From the website of the Irish Quakers:

Quakers have great diversity of belief, and while words can divide us, the shared experience of silent worship, seeking to practice Christ’s message of love and compassion unites us. We know ours is not the only path to God, but believe it is the right one for us.

Quakerism is rooted in Christianity. We are formally known as the Religious Society of Friends. Currently, there are just over 1,500 members in Ireland.

Coming from a Christian perspective, I'm not entirely sure how nontheists account for the experience of silent worship or the meaning of the word God. It doesn't seem too be a barrier too them though and the variety of perspectives among Friends is one of the aspects that appeals to me the most.

Benny_Cake

smacl wrote: »

Once you take away worship, priests and empty ritual, what are you left with that is worth keeping? There was an atheist assembly in Dublin discussed here. Didn't meet with much enthusiasm from folks here, myself included.

It seems like it would be closest to what the OP was looking for but they seem to have gone inactive. Didn't the group as a whole end up having a schism over some obscure disagreement? (in the best traditions of churches everywhere!)

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Quakerism is like Judaism or Buddhism in this regard; you absolutely can be a "good" Quaker/Jew/Buddhist and an atheist....

I appreciate that Buddhists may or may not be atheist, depending on the branch of Buddhism. Some in Tibetan Buddhism have an emphasis on gods and demons, but others take no real position on such matters.

But the Jewish and Quaker religions are Abrahamic; religions of the book.
The only reasons an atheist could have to still call himself a Jew or a Quaker would be concerned with racism, family identity, culture and tribalism.

Having said that, I'm sure many atheists are integrated fully into these religious communities, because cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are common features of the religious way. The atheist individual presumably goes along with it as long as the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I'm pretty sure there was a COI clergyman years ago who tried to take a whole parish with him as an atheist, while still being paid to be the official COI rector, and as I remember he wanted to substitute a ring as a new symbol instead of the cross. Google is not helping me out though.
Here's something else from a guy with first hand experience along those lines.

Benny_Cake

recedite wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there was a COI clergyman years ago who tried to take a whole parish with him as an atheist, while still being paid to be the official COI rector, and as I remember he wanted to substitute a ring as a new symbol instead of the cross. Google is not helping me out though.

Was it Andrew Furlong? The Church of Ireland is a creedal church though so if you can't affirm the creed then to really have no business being a clergyman in the church.

recedite

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Was it Andrew Furlong?

Possibly, I can't remember the name, but the thing about replacing the cross with his new ring symbol turned out to be a step too far for this guy.

There seem to be quite a lot of individuals in that position. They are OK until they become outspoken, and then the organisation steps in to deal with them.

I understand what you mean about the creed, but still you have to ask the question, when is a Christian not a Christian?
When they no longer believe in the divinity of Christ, I think.

topcatcbr

recedite wrote: »

I appreciate that Buddhists may or may not be atheist, depending on the branch of Buddhism. Some in Tibetan Buddhism have an emphasis on gods and demons, but others take no real position on such matters.

I'm interested in learning more about this. I find many Buddhists fairly agreeable.

I don't know of any wars or hostilities centred on their beliefs.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

The only reasons an atheist could have to still call himself a Jew or a Quaker would be concerned with racism, family identity, culture and tribalism.

Having said that, I'm sure many atheists are integrated fully into these religious communities, because cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are common features of the religious way. The atheist individual presumably goes along with it as long as the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

That may be your presumption, recedite, but have you paused to consider that it may not be his? The overall tone of what you say here is pretty derogatory. The notion of an atheist decreeing who may or may not call himself a Jew or a Quaker, and which reasons for doing so are good and which bad, is a pretty odd one. I'd suspect that those who engage in such activity do so mainly for the purpose of self-affirmation, and what you say here does nothing to allay the suspicion.

If a bloke thinks he's a Jew, and if other Jews think he's a Jew, then he's a Jew, and your attribution of racism, hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance to him reflects rather more on you than it does on him. If it suprises you that someone can be an atheist Jew, the surprise reflects the limits of your imagination and/or your knowledge. If you feel the need to understand the phenomenon better then go and talk to some atheist Jews (or even to some non-atheist Jews) who will explain to you how an atheist can be accepted as a Jew.

Hotblack Desiato

topcatcbr wrote: »

I'm interested in learning more about this. I find many Buddhists fairly agreeable.

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

... non-atheist Jews who will explain to you how an atheist can be accepted as a Jew.

ninja900 wrote: »

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims?

Tribalism. A club to belong to.
Its the real answer behind all of the above questions.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Tribalism. A club to belong to.
Its the real answer behind all of the above questions.

And your authority for this proposition would be . . . ?

recedite

It was revealed to me by the voices in my head