Landlord trying to sell the house

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:05am #1

I know that in this country a landlord is legally allowed to sell their house out from under you even with a lease but I want to know can I stop people from coming to view the house and can I pull out of the lease on the grounds that there's strangers wandering around my house and I have a young child?!

fussyonion · 02-03-2014 12:07am

The owner of the property has to allow people to view the place but he should let you know in advance about people coming to see the house.

You can't break your lease just because there are potential buyers coming to see the house, but you should have been told beforehand that people were coming.

Was this the case? Did you get warning?

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:13am

fussyonion wrote: »

The owner of the property has to allow people to view the place but he should let you know in advance about people coming to see the house.

You can't break your lease just because there are potential buyers coming to see the house, but you should have been told beforehand that people were coming.

Was this the case? Did you get warning?

Well for the first viewing the auctioneer gave 2 hours notice. At least the landlord himself gave a few days notice about the upcoming. The day I gave the deposit I was told by the auctioneer, while on the phone to the landlord, that there would be very few viewings. Now 3 viewings in 3 weeks is not very few. I feel like I've been conned by the auctioneer not so much the landlord. I know people have to view the house but it's disrupting our lives and starting to stress me out

fussyonion · 02-03-2014 12:16am

skeptik wrote: »

Well for the first viewing the auctioneer gave 2 hours notice. At least the landlord himself gave a few days notice about the upcoming. The day I gave the deposit I was told by the auctioneer, while on the phone to the landlord, that there would be very few viewings. Now 3 viewings in 3 weeks is not very few. I feel like I've been conned by the auctioneer not so much the landlord. I know people have to view the house but it's disrupting our lives and starting to stress me out

I understand it's stressful but the Landlord is obviously getting a lot of attention for the property and though I understand it's disruptive, just go with it.

I assume you're moving out soon anyway?

Having people in to see the house is just one of those things, but I would say if they were just knocking on the door, without notice, to view the house, then that would not sound right to me.

eyescreamcone · 02-03-2014 12:16am

3 viewings in 3 weeks is not much in my opinion!

Balmed Out · 02-03-2014 12:20am

A landlord has no right to allow viewings without your permission. They can either cone to an agreement with you or end the letting giving you the required period of notice

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:23am

eyescreamcone wrote: »

3 viewings in 3 weeks is not much in my opinion!

You clearly don't live in a house where strangers are wandering in and out of your rooms then!

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:24am

Thanks for the replies. So the consensus is I haven't got grounds to pull out of the lease because the viewings are making me and my family uncomfortable?

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:25am

fussyonion wrote: »

I understand it's stressful but the Landlord is obviously getting a lot of attention for the property and though I understand it's disruptive, just go with it.

I assume you're moving out soon anyway?

Having people in to see the house is just one of those things, but I would say if they were just knocking on the door, without notice, to view the house, then that would not sound right to me.

No, we have just signed the lease. It's for 12 months. Not sure I could put up with this for that length though :-(

Balmed Out · 02-03-2014 12:28am

You have grounds to not allow viewings. The landlord can't have it both ways. Either terminate the lease and not gain tent during the selling process or come to an arrangement with you, for example a period on s Saturday morning in exchange for a small discount on rent.

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:30am

Balmed Out wrote: »

You have grounds to not allow viewings. The landlord can't have it both ways. Either terminate the lease and not gain tent during the selling process or come to an arrangement with you, for example a period on s Saturday morning in exchange for a small discount on rent.

Now that sounds more like it! Thank you :-)

fussyonion · 02-03-2014 12:48am

OP, I didn't realise you had only just signed a lease.
This changes things drastically.

You need to tell the Landlord that he needs to set up a timetable for viewings if he is adamant he wants them.
He cannot just turn up on the doorstep at the drop of a hat and expect you to be happy with several viewings a week.

skeptik · 02-03-2014 12:50am

fussyonion wrote: »

OP, I didn't realise you had only just signed a lease.
This changes things drastically.

You need to tell the Landlord that he needs to set up a timetable for viewings if he is adamant he wants them.
He cannot just turn up on the doorstep at the drop of a hat and expect you to be happy with several viewings a week.

Well that's it, I don't want to stop the man from selling the house but I have a young child. I want to know exactly who's coming to the house and when. And no more than 1 a week. We'll have had 3 in less than 2 weeks come Monday. Think I'll have to have a word on Monday. Thanks :-)

fussyonion · 02-03-2014 12:54am

skeptik wrote: »

Well that's it, I don't want to stop the man from selling the house but I have a young child. I want to know exactly who's coming to the house and when. And no more than 1 a week. We'll have had 3 in less than 2 weeks come Monday. Think I'll have to have a word on Monday. Thanks :-)

Ah that's a bit much..how are you meant to lead a normal life with that disruption?
One a week sounds fair enough to me.
Best of luck on Monday

Balmed Out · 02-03-2014 12:55am

fussyonion wrote: »

OP, I didn't realise you had only just signed a lease.
This changes things drastically.

You need to tell the Landlord that he needs to set up a timetable for viewings if he is adamant he wants them.
He cannot just turn up on the doorstep at the drop of a hat and expect you to be happy with several viewings a week.

A tenant is under no obligation to allow any viewings at all. If the landLord is adamant he wants viewings hr must get the tenants permission which they are perfectly within their rights to refuse regardless of when a lease was signed. As the landlord is selling the house he can end the lease early, giving the tenant the appropriate notice. If he wants to continue to receive rent he needs to come to an agreement with thetennant. A landlord is within their rights to inspect a property but that doesn't equate to holding viewings.

djimi · 02-03-2014 2:39am

A landlord cannot invoke the termination clause from a part 4 tenancy while a fixed term lease is in effect, even if they wish to sell. Why they would sign a further lease while looking to sell is beyond me; very silly thing for them to do.

With regards to viewings, it's entirely up to you how many to allow, and how often. You are perfectly within in your rights to allow none at all if you so choose. Or if you want to accommodate the sale, you can allow an hour a week or whatever in which people can view. It's entirely on your terms, however do not allow the agent to try and bully you with false tales of any obligation to allow a viewing; if they ring with an hours notice do not be afraid to say no.

davo10 · 02-03-2014 7:45am

skeptik wrote: »

The day I gave the deposit I was told by the auctioneer, while on the phone to the landlord, that there would be very few viewings. t

So you paid the deposit and rented the house in the knowledge that it was for sale and that there would be viewings?

It doesn't matter if the lease is 12 months, sale of the house is one of the reasons a LL can use for ending a tenancy agreement (I think, see below). Also if new owner is buying as an investment, having a sitting tenant has its advantages.

Like others, I think 3 in three weeks is not excessive.

davo10 · 02-03-2014 7:49am

djimi wrote: »

A landlord cannot invoke the termination clause from a part 4 tenancy while a fixed term lease is in effect, even if they wish to sell. o.

Djimi are you sure about this? My understanding is that the sale of the property is one of the few instances when a LL can end a tenancy by giving the required notice. As far as I'm aware the house must be sold and that LL cannot re-let again if not sold.

I'm not certain about this and would appreciate clarification.

eyescreamcone · 02-03-2014 7:59am

davo10 wrote: »

Djimi are you sure about this? My understanding is that the sale of the property is one of the few instances when a LL can end a tenancy by giving the required notice. As far as I'm aware the house must be sold and that LL cannot re-let again if not sold.

I'm not certain about this and would appreciate clarification.

I think if it's not sold the landlord must prove that every effort must've been made to sell, plus the house can't be re-let again within 3 months.

The_Conductor · 02-03-2014 8:01am

davo10 wrote: »

Djimi are you sure about this? My understanding is that the sale of the property is one of the few instances when a LL can end a tenancy by giving the required notice. As far as I'm aware the house must be sold and that LL cannot re-let again if not sold.

I'm not certain about this and would appreciate clarification.

Part 4 tenancy.
A landlord cannot invoke this clause under a fixed term lease- unless it is specifically listed as a break clause in a fixed term lease.

A fixed term lease can (and very often does) give a tenant rights significantly above those afforded to them under a Part 4 tenancy- in this instance- they have security of tenure for the term of the fixed term.

I'd echo the sentiments above- it was spelt out at the outset that the property was for sale. Agree to vacate the property for viewings on Saturday mornings between 10AM and 1PM (for example) in exchange for a significant discount on the rent. The landlord (and their agent, the auctioneer) cannot have it every which way.

Davo10- I'd suggest you check out Part 4 Tenancies- and what they entail- and then have a look at Fixed Term Tenancies- they are two different (though related) kettle of fish.

The_Conductor · 02-03-2014 8:03am

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I think if it's not sold the landlord must prove that every effort must've been made to sell, plus the house can't be re-let again within 3 months.

Once again- Part 4 tenancy only- unless, a specific clause in the Fixed Term lease, introduces this provision (which is entirely satisfactory from a legal perspective- it can mirror the terms of a Part 4 tenancy- but it cannot detract from them).

djimi · 02-03-2014 8:09am

davo10 wrote: »

Djimi are you sure about this? My understanding is that the sale of the property is one of the few instances when a LL can end a tenancy by giving the required notice. As far as I'm aware the house must be sold and that LL cannot re-let again if not sold.

I'm not certain about this and would appreciate clarification.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

djimi · 02-03-2014 8:11am

The_Conductor wrote: »

Part 4 tenancy.
A landlord cannot invoke this clause under a fixed term lease- unless it is specifically listed as a break clause in a fixed term lease.

A fixed term lease can (and very often does) give a tenant rights significantly above those afforded to them under a Part 4 tenancy- in this instance- they have security of tenure for the term of the fixed term.

I'd echo the sentiments above- it was spelt out at the outset that the property was for sale. Agree to vacate the property for viewings on Saturday mornings between 10AM and 1PM (for example) in exchange for a significant discount on the rent. The landlord (and their agent, the auctioneer) cannot have it every which way.

Davo10- I'd suggest you check out Part 4 Tenancies- and what they entail- and then have a look at Fixed Term Tenancies- they are two different (though related) kettle of fish.

Not a chance should the tenant be vacating the property. It's bad enough having strangers brought into your home, but if it were me I would want to ensure that I am there to keep an eye on them at all times.

The_Conductor · 02-03-2014 8:19am

djimi wrote: »

Not a chance should the tenant be vacating the property. It's bad enough having strangers brought into your home, but if it were me I would want to ensure that I am there to keep an eye on them at all times.

If I could extract a sufficient discount from the landlord- I'd run with it- but its entirely up to the OP- and course, he/she is under no obligation whatsoever to go along with it (unless its spelt out in their lease- which I strongly suspect it isn't). And even if they tried to add a proviso to allow viewings in a lease- it would doubtless fall if ever challenged- as it would introduce terms more onerous on a tenant- than those in the P4 tenancy.

All-in-all, the landlord was a fool for giving them a 1 year fixed term lease, and has needlessly tied themselves in knots. How the tenant manages this- is up to them- but the tenant holds all the cards on this one.

weisses · 02-03-2014 8:42am

Sorry to hijack the thread a small bit

What about if you signed fixed term leases but they expired awhile back (9 years of tenancy) ??

The_Conductor · 02-03-2014 8:45am

weisses wrote: »

Sorry to hijack the thread a small bit

What about if you signed fixed term leases but they expired awhile back (9 years of tenancy) ??

Then you're on Part 4- the landlord has to give you the requisite notice (you're on year 1 of a second 4 year cycle)- and the landlord selling the property is a valid reason to terminate the tenancy (with the requisite notice).

Murt10 · 02-03-2014 8:49am

Plus the tenant can presumably dictate the times of the viewings.

If, for example, they were to say that they were only prepared to allow viewings of their house between 9.00 and 10.00 am on the first
Wednesday morning of the month, then this is the only time that viewings could take place.

Can't see too many potential buyers coming to viewings with such limited potential. Plus they could also arrange for one or two of the other occupants to be in bed during the viewing.

In order to allow more favourably timed viewings, with no one in bed, and the house reasonably tidy, not having cooked curry or smoked fish or both, the night before, toilets flushed, a substantial discount should be discussed.

Tenant has landlord over a barrel.

weisses · 02-03-2014 8:53am

The_Conductor wrote: »

Then you're on Part 4- the landlord has to give you the requisite notice (you're on year 1 of a second 4 year cycle)- and the landlord selling the property is a valid reason to terminate the tenancy (with the requisite notice).

Got it

He has every right to sell of course Was informed last week of his intend but have the first viewing tomorrow already... Now Im not to fuzzy about people coming to the house so now and then ... but am not planning my life around viewings either

Thanks for the helpful info regarding refusing the viewings, its not something i would do but good to know anyway

djimi · 02-03-2014 9:07am

The_Conductor wrote: »

If I could extract a sufficient discount from the landlord- I'd run with it- but its entirely up to the OP- and course, he/she is under no obligation whatsoever to go along with it (unless its spelt out in their lease- which I strongly suspect it isn't). And even if they tried to add a proviso to allow viewings in a lease- it would doubtless fall if ever challenged- as it would introduce terms more onerous on a tenant- than those in the P4 tenancy.

All-in-all, the landlord was a fool for giving them a 1 year fixed term lease, and has needlessly tied themselves in knots. How the tenant manages this- is up to them- but the tenant holds all the cards on this one.

I think for me the issue of the viewings is a matter of security; I suppose it boils down to how much you trust the agent to keep an eye on the people in the house. At least if Im there, I can watch people that they arent stealing stuff from my home. Im not sure that I would trust an agent to be so careful, or that I would be entirely happy that an agent couldnt be temporarily distracted. It might sound paranoid, but its my home that we are talking about.

hdowney · 02-03-2014 11:44am

I'd be with you Djimi - I'd want to be there to keep an eye on things. I wouldn't want strangers wandering round my home when I am not there. Also having the current residents in the house can prove useful to potential buyers I would have thought. They can ask questions about the property that the resident is most likely to know seen as they live in the place - such as how well it keeps the heat (as opposed to just seeing a BER rating) and the like?

OP I would say certainly contact the landlord/agent and get some terms set out. You are in the driving seat here as you are entitled to peaceful enjoyment of your home, so people traipsing round whenever the agent/landlord feel like it is not acceptable. Set out your terms, let them come back with their own and see if you can come to an agreement. If they are looking for more viewings than you suggest and you are possibly amenable to it for a reduction in rent then say so. At the end of the day it is in the landlords best interest to get you on side if he genuinely wants to sell the property as you are under no obligation to allow any viewings and can dig your heels in about this point if he doesn't want to come to an agreement. Good luck.

TheDriver · 02-03-2014 12:01pm

3 viewings in 3 weeks is nothing. you get all your viewings in the first 1-2 weeks and then it goes quiet. Initial interest shows eagerness to buy

gemini_girl · 03-03-2014 8:21pm

We are in a similar situation 18 months now & trust me having people walk around the house every week for 18 months is very stressful. Its well & good to say just refuse to view but in our case we need a good reference from EA when we leave & we also get rent allowance so actually the EA calls the shots in our case. We have 2 small kids who get very upset with the viewings as sometimes other kids come in & sit on their beds or play with their toys etc. On the otherhand if we go out for the viewings we have the worry that the place is being scoped out for a robbery. If you can move out I would recommend that but if the house is sellable then a sale mightnt take too long. The house i rent is overpriced so is not selling but we still have all the viewings

foggy_lad · 03-03-2014 8:34pm

weisses wrote: »

Got it

He has every right to sell of course Was informed last week of his intend but have the first viewing tomorrow already... Now Im not to fuzzy about people coming to the house so now and then ... but am not planning my life around viewings either

Thanks for the helpful info regarding refusing the viewings, its not something i would do but good to know anyway

Make sure also that the estate agent does not enter the property while you are away to show people around without your knowledge.

skeptik · 03-03-2014 9:51pm

Thank you all so much for your help. I have a feeling the landlord doesn't know the things you've pointed out or else he thinks we wouldn't know. The fact that I'm now in control has taken the stress out of it. I just went through my lease and it's a standard set term lease. Does this mean he's not allowed sell the house with us still in it?

djimi · 03-03-2014 10:55pm

WhiteTiger wrote: »

We are in a similar situation 18 months now & trust me having people walk around the house every week for 18 months is very stressful. Its well & good to say just refuse to view but in our case we need a good reference from EA when we leave & we also get rent allowance so actually the EA calls the shots in our case. We have 2 small kids who get very upset with the viewings as sometimes other kids come in & sit on their beds or play with their toys etc. On the otherhand if we go out for the viewings we have the worry that the place is being scoped out for a robbery. If you can move out I would recommend that but if the house is sellable then a sale mightnt take too long. The house i rent is overpriced so is not selling but we still have all the viewings

A viewing a week for 18 months is massively taking the piss. If you dont like it then put a stop to it; RA or not the agent holds no aces here. Tell them that you will accomodate a 2 hour window once a month in return for a rent reduction; if they dont like that then let them deal with an empty house until it is sold.

sandin · 03-03-2014 11:07pm

He can sell the house with you in it and new owner is who you pay rent to - happens all the time in commercial properties.

He can also give you notice as per lease terms is house is sold. Legals can take 6-8 weeks so you'll get 2 months notice assuming the lease allows this.

As for 3 viewings in 2 weeks - I'd be looking for another estate agent! That's a poor response ' possibly the house is not in a prime family home area?

Agree with ll or agent a fixed time for viewings once a week such as 6-7 on a Thursday or 12-1on a Saturday. One hour a week is reasonable and if it's fixed you can plan around it.

Eldarion · 04-03-2014 1:16pm

skeptik wrote: »

Thank you all so much for your help. I have a feeling the landlord doesn't know the things you've pointed out or else he thinks we wouldn't know. The fact that I'm now in control has taken the stress out of it. I just went through my lease and it's a standard set term lease. Does this mean he's not allowed sell the house with us still in it?

Well he can still sell the house, but your lease is still completely valid for the term period set out in the lease as long as you've done nothing to breach said lease. That being said it would mean the new buyer would have to be full cash as no bank will give a mortgage without vacant possession.

And again, you are under no obligation whatsoever to allow for sale viewings while you're in tenancy.

The_Conductor · 04-03-2014 4:33pm

sandin wrote: »

He can sell the house with you in it and new owner is who you pay rent to - happens all the time in commercial properties.

Doesn't happen very often with residential properties- as no lender will give a mortgage to a purchaser, unless they have vacant possession of the property.

gemini_girl · 04-03-2014 6:46pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Doesn't happen very often with residential properties- as no lender will give a mortgage to a purchaser, unless they have vacant possession of the property.

What does vacant possession mean? No tenants is it? The house we're renting is for sale so in order for a potentional buyer to get mortgage would we be required to move out or how does an EA sell a house with tenants?

The_Conductor · 04-03-2014 7:30pm

WhiteTiger wrote: »

What does vacant possession mean? No tenants is it? The house we're renting is for sale so in order for a potentional buyer to get mortgage would we be required to move out or how does an EA sell a house with tenants?

An EA does not normally sell a property with sitting residential tenants.
Normally- the tenants would be forced to vacate the premises (with appropriate notice) before a purchaser could draw down finances for the sale.
Of course- if it is a cash-sale, this wouldn't be an issue (however, few landlords would buy a property with cash- as the major expense they can write off against rental income is 75% of mortgage interest.

Its quite usual for sitting tenants to stay put in commercial lettings- less normal in residential scenarios.

Landlord trying to sell the house

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