Liberty & Sovereignty

GUYMAN

Hello, Guy from The States here. I'm new to the forum. Very interested in Ireland, Britain, & Europe. Used to travel to Europe quite often. As an American its not my place to say what any other nation should do, I just would like to share opinions, etc.

I truly feel that all the peoples of the Irish & British Isles ( Irish, English, Scots, & Welsh) should focus on the common enemy - the EU. They will take away your independence, your wealth, and you won't even know exactly who "they are". A huge, faceless bureacracy will do it. Oh there will be meaningless elections to be sure - you have them now. If you have problems holding your leaders in Dublin accountable how can you possibly expect a better outcome dealing with Brussels?

Pro Hoc Vice

GUYMAN wrote: »

Hello, Guy from The States here. I'm new to the forum. Very interested in Ireland, Britain, & Europe. Used to travel to Europe quite often. As an American its not my place to say what any other nation should do, I just would like to share opinions, etc.

I truly feel that all the peoples of the Irish & British Isles ( Irish, English, Scots, & Welsh) should focus on the common enemy - the EU. They will take away your independence, your wealth, and you won't even know exactly who "they are". A huge, faceless bureacracy will do it. Oh there will be meaningless elections to be sure - you have them now. If you have problems holding your leaders in Dublin accountable how can you possibly expect a better outcome dealing with Brussels?

Can you explain how Ireland has had its independence reduced, also how is ireland less wealthy now than pre 1972. BTW one of the countries with huge wealth disparity is guess where, also largest prison population in the world and the reintroduction of slavey for the Latino and African American population, a country that uses the death penalty for children and mentally ill. Not one to tell another nation what todo, but just my opinion if the USA did as they say the world would be a far better country. Just as an aside in my personal opinion the majority of Americas founding founders would turn in their grave in seeing what the federal goverenment has done to the once great America, so maybe take your advice get rid of the Federal America and allow the States their own freedoms. Or is it just ok for a American to preach to the Poor European.

The NSA is the best department in the Goverenment of the USA as they are only ones who listen, pity it's everyone they listen to.

GUYMAN

I can make no guarantee that Ireland will be more prosperous outside of the EU - frankly I think some things are more important than that. I simply said the EU will seek to take away whatever wealth you do have in unaccountable ways - as all giant, uncontrolable government entities do. As far as what you said about the USA - you happen to be right. I have many faults, but hypocrisy is not one of them. I believe in civil liberties, private property, more personal responsibility, less government, national sovereignty, a place for God in the public sphere, peace not war - and I believe those principles should apply to all nations. My country, being the superpower that it is holds more responsibility than others for some of the problems in this world, there's no doubt of that.

Pro Hoc Vice

GUYMAN wrote: »

I can make no guarantee that Ireland will be more prosperous outside of the EU - frankly I think some things are more important than that. I simply said the EU will seek to take away whatever wealth you do have in unaccountable ways - as all giant, uncontrolable government entities do. As far as what you said about the USA - you happen to be right. I have many faults, but hypocrisy is not one of them. I believe in civil liberties, private property, more personal responsibility, less government, national sovereignty, a place for God in the public sphere, peace not war - and I believe those principles should apply to all nations. My country, being the superpower that it is holds more responsibility than others for some of the problems in this world, there's no doubt of that.

Agree with most of your aspirations but I have no place for magic sky fairy in the public sphere. When ever countries allow people connected to such views into the public sphere it usually ends with the poor and young getting a shafting. We in Ireland would know plenty about that.

Jim2007

GUYMAN wrote: »

I truly feel that all the peoples of the Irish & British Isles ( Irish, English, Scots, & Welsh) should focus on the common enemy - the EU. They will take away your independence, your wealth, and you won't even know exactly who "they are". A huge, faceless bureacracy will do it. Oh there will be meaningless elections to be sure - you have them now. If you have problems holding your leaders in Dublin accountable how can you possibly expect a better outcome dealing with Brussels?

You have absolutely no idea about this topic! We elect the EU parliament, just like you elect your congress. That parliament approves the appointment of the EU Commission, just the same as your Congress approves the approval appointment of your administrative branch. And just as your Congress is responsible for the approval of the US budget, the EU Parliament is ultimately responsible for the EU budget.

But there are a few important difference between the EU and the USA - the Irish people have the right through referenda have the right to prevent changes to the treaties underlying the foundations of the EU, where as you have no direct say in a change to the US constitution, the Congress decide that for you.

And then there is the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights have a good read of it, you will be amazed at how far short your constitution falls compare to it.

And then there is the whole lobbying issue in the states, if you take the time to study that as well you find that EU lobbying is almost not existent in comparison what goes on in the US.

Jim2007

GUYMAN wrote: »

I believe in civil liberties, private property, more personal responsibility, less government, national sovereignty, a place for God in the public sphere, peace not war - and I believe those principles should apply to all nations.

Have you actually read the EU charter of fundamental rights??? It would appear that you are very long on opinions and very short on facts!

Pro Hoc Vice

Jim2007 wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea about this topic! We elect the EU parliament, just like you elect your congress. That parliament approves the appointment of the EU Commission, just the same as your Congress approves the approval appointment of your administrative branch. And just as your Congress is responsible for the approval of the US budget, the EU Parliament is ultimately responsible for the EU budget.

But there are a few important difference between the EU and the USA - the Irish people have the right through referenda have the right to prevent changes to the treaties underlying the foundations of the EU, where as you have no direct say in a change to the US constitution, the Congress decide that for you.

And then there is the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights have a good read of it, you will be amazed at how far short your constitution falls compare to it.

And then there is the whole lobbying issue in the states, if you take the time to study that as well you find that EU lobbying is almost not existent in comparison what goes on in the US.

Excellent post and while I agree with you the charter is an excellent document it is currently limited in Scope. (I will predict the ECJ may very well broaden the scope over time and I for one hope they do), but as written the charter only applied to the instructions and organs of the EU and the important bit only to the states when exercising EU functions.

"1. The provisions of this Charter are addressed to the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union with due regard for the principle of subsidiarity and to the Member States only when they are implementing Union law. They shall therefore respect the rights, observe the principles and promote the application thereof in accordance with their respective powers and respecting the limits of the powers of the Union as conferred on it in the Treaties."

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

Can you explain how Ireland has had its independence reduced, also how is ireland less wealthy now than pre 1972. BTW one of the countries with huge wealth disparity is guess where, also largest prison population in the world and the reintroduction of slavey for the Latino and African American population, a country that uses the death penalty for children and mentally ill. Not one to tell another nation what todo, but just my opinion if the USA did as they say the world would be a far better country. Just as an aside in my personal opinion the majority of Americas founding founders would turn in their grave in seeing what the federal goverenment has done to the once great America, so maybe take your advice get rid of the Federal America and allow the States their own freedoms. Or is it just ok for a American to preach to the Poor European.

The NSA is the best department in the Goverenment of the USA as they are only ones who listen, pity it's everyone they listen to.

Reintroduction of slavery for the Latino and African American population(s) ?

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

Reintroduction of slavery for the Latino and African American population(s) ?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/prison-the-new-slavery-for-black-america-235416.html

http://feministing.com/2013/06/19/its-juneteenth-2013-more-black-people-are-in-prison-than-were-slaves-and-paula-deen-wants-to-bring-slavery-back/

https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights-racial-justice/kanye-west-new-slaves-and-long-tradition-locking-people-profit

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

I could keep going all day long. Many goods made in the USA would not be able to compete except they are made for tiny wages in prison. http://mentalfloss.com/article/51037/11-products-you-might-not-realize-were-made-prisoners

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/prison-the-new-slavery-for-black-america-235416.html

http://feministing.com/2013/06/19/its-juneteenth-2013-more-black-people-are-in-prison-than-were-slaves-and-paula-deen-wants-to-bring-slavery-back/

https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights-racial-justice/kanye-west-new-slaves-and-long-tradition-locking-people-profit

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

I could keep going all day long. Many goods made in the USA would not be able to compete except they are made for tiny wages in prison. http://mentalfloss.com/article/51037/11-products-you-might-not-realize-were-made-prisoners

Indeed you could keep going,but it still wouldn't make any instance quoted slavery, 2 of the articles relate to the numbers of black people in jail,one relates to Prof Kanye West PhD and his thoughts.

Nothing in any article you linked to is slavery.

In your quest to browbeat an American visitor you have insulted the memory of those who were born and died in slavery.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

Indeed you could keep going,but it still wouldn't make any instance quoted slavery, 2 of the articles relate to the numbers of black people in jail,one relates to Prof Kanye West PhD and his thoughts.

Nothing in any article you linked to is slavery.

In your quest to browbeat an American visitor you have insulted the memory of those who were born and died in slavery.

From the very first article I linked to, "Prison: The new slavery for black America" from the second "As Phillipe Copeland points out, the prison system was quickly positioned to take the place of slavery through the 13th amendment:" Sp either you did not read the articles or have decided to ignore them and many more. There has been a discussion in the US for a couple of decades now that the criminal justice system there seems to have many more Latino and African American men in the system than other races. Where 1 in 3 African American man spending some time in custody. A multi billion industry has grown in the US in the production of many products by the prison system. The system also has the single largest prison population in the world.

Far from being an insult to the memory of many who have suffered as slaves, it is highlighting a serious injustice been perpetrated against in many cases their descendants. If I am guilty of insulting the victims of Slavery then so to is the New Yorker "Mass incarceration on a scale almost unexampled in human history is a fundamental fact of our country today—perhaps the fundamental fact, as slavery was the fundamental fact of 1850. In truth, there are more black men in the grip of the criminal-justice system—in prison, on probation, or on parole—than were in slavery then." http://m.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik?currentPage=all

Nor was it a quest to browbeat a visitor (i did not know Americans got special treatment) but simply informing him that he may be better served 1 learning his own countries issues 2 before he claims ireland is being destroyed by the EU based on no data or evidence. If he or any person wants a discussion on this or any issue then please don't get upset when that's actually what happens.

Can you point at any part of my "browbeating" that was factually incorrect.

A quote "The new form of slavery has the same intent and purpose as the old: to rob us of our labor and to keep us powerless." From http://www.alternet.org/america-never-really-ended-slavery unless you are saying a known African American activist is also guilty of what you have accused me of. I insulted no one in my post unlike you.

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

From the very first article I linked to, "Prison: The new slavery for black America" from the second "As Phillipe Copeland points out, the prison system was quickly positioned to take the place of slavery through the 13th amendment:" Sp either you did not read the articles or have decided to ignore them and many more. There has been a discussion in the US for a couple of decades now that the criminal justice system there seems to have many more Latino and African American men in the system than other races. Where 1 in 3 African American man spending some time in custody. A multi billion industry has grown in the US in the production of many products by the prison system. The system also has the single largest prison population in the world.

Far from being an insult to the memory of many who have suffered as slaves, it is highlighting a serious injustice been perpetrated against in many cases their descendants. If I am guilty of insulting the victims of Slavery then so to is the New Yorker "Mass incarceration on a scale almost unexampled in human history is a fundamental fact of our country today—perhaps the fundamental fact, as slavery was the fundamental fact of 1850. In truth, there are more black men in the grip of the criminal-justice system—in prison, on probation, or on parole—than were in slavery then." http://m.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik?currentPage=all

Nor was it a quest to browbeat a visitor (i did not know Americans got special treatment) but simply informing him that he may be better served 1 learning his own countries issues 2 before he claims ireland is being destroyed by the EU based on no data or evidence. If he or any person wants a discussion on this or any issue then please don't get upset when that's actually what happens.

Can you point at any part of my "browbeating" that was factually incorrect.

A quote "The new form of slavery has the same intent and purpose as the old: to rob us of our labor and to keep us powerless." From http://www.alternet.org/america-never-really-ended-slavery unless you are saying a known African American activist is also guilty of what you have accused me of. I insulted no one in my post unlike you.

Nothing in those articles describe anything Close to slavery-indeed you seem to be insinuating that being held in prison equates to slavery,meaning therefore that slavery is being supported by every government on Earth.

Those men (and women) in prison will serve their time and be set free-as you well know,slaves had no such timeframe for freedom.
Those now incarcerated had parents who concieved them in a more traditional Environment, many/if not most slaves were concieved as part of a eugenics plan-for want of a better Word,many were "bred"
Physical, sexual torture and rape were widespreadly used by the plantation owners, Are you saying that D.o.C officials use those tactics too?

All you have used is outrageous hyperbole to compare incarceration with slavery,one of the biggesst stains on mankind.

Lastly,on the Point of why so many Latino and AA incarcerations-take Chicago, a city of about 30% Black,30% White & 30% Latino (other 10 being Asian,native,mixed race etc.).

There were 415 homicides there in 2013,approx 9 of those were White victims,the rest were Black and Latino (With Black accounting for over 80% of all homicide victims)

The reasons behind why violent criminality disproportionally comes from and affects minority communities is a topic for a different thread(not on this site either). All I wish to do is Point out that your statement regarding slavery in Contemporary America is wrong,delusional and crass and a slur on anyhuman that had to go through actual slavery as opposed to your definition of what it is.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

Nothing in those articles describe anything Close to slavery-indeed you seem to be insinuating that being held in prison equates to slavery,meaning therefore that slavery is being supported by every government on Earth.

Those men (and women) in prison will serve their time and be set free-as you well know,slaves had no such timeframe for freedom.
Those now incarcerated had parents who concieved them in a more traditional Environment, many/if not most slaves were concieved as part of a eugenics plan-for want of a better Word,many were "bred"
Physical, sexual torture and rape were widespreadly used by the plantation owners, Are you saying that D.o.C officials use those tactics too?

All you have used is outrageous hyperbole to compare incarceration with slavery,one of the biggesst stains on mankind.

Lastly,on the Point of why so many Latino and AA incarcerations-take Chicago, a city of about 30% Black,30% White & 30% Latino (other 10 being Asian,native,mixed race etc.).

There were 415 homicides there in 2013,approx 9 of those were White victims,the rest were Black and Latino (With Black accounting for over 80% of all homicide victims)

The reasons behind why violent criminality disproportionally comes from and affects minority communities is a topic for a different thread(not on this site either). All I wish to do is Point out that your statement regarding slavery in Contemporary America is wrong,delusional and crass and a slur on anyhuman that had to go through actual slavery as opposed to your definition of what it is.

It's a comment not just made by me but many well respected activists, and media. Even though studies that African Americans commit no more drug crimes than white they still make up a far higher % of incarcerated persons. It is not just my opinion but that of many others, you may not disagree with the view that the prison service in the USA is tantamount to a new slavery but in my view and many others it is. I wish to point out in my opinion your view is "delusional and crass and a slur on anyhuman that had to go through actual slavery" but that's just my view. It's still a fact that African Americans make up 30% of USA population yet 60% of prison population, it's a fact that the USA has more people in prison than any other country on Earth, it's a fact that prison working makes private companies and the FG billions of dollars a year. In my opinion the USA has turned the Prison system into a new slavery.

While slavery is a huge stain on world history there are as many people in the world today victims of slavery as at any time in history it is estimated that outside of prison labor over 20 million people worldwide are in slavery, my opinion remains that one of the worst criminal justice systems in the world is in the USA.

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

It's a comment not just made by me but many well respected activists, and media. Even though studies that African Americans commit no more drug crimes than white they still make up a far higher % of incarcerated persons. It is not just my opinion but that of many others, you may not disagree with the view that the prison service in the USA is tantamount to a new slavery but in my view and many others it is. I wish to point out in my opinion your view is "delusional and crass and a slur on anyhuman that had to go through actual slavery" but that's just my view. It's still a fact that African Americans make up 30% of USA population yet 60% of prison population, it's a fact that the USA has more people in prison than any other country on Earth, it's a fact that prison working makes private companies and the FG billions of dollars a year. In my opinion the USA has turned the Prison system into a new slavery.

While slavery is a huge stain on world history there are as many people in the world today victims of slavery as at any time in history it is estimated that outside of prison labor over 20 million people worldwide are in slavery, my opinion remains that one of the worst criminal justice systems in the world is in the USA.

AA do not make up 30% of the population of the US,they make up between 12-14% of the population and though they are heavily over-represented in prison populations,the fact that they are there does not equate to slavery.

Do you see all prisoners as slaves,or just the browner ones? I have no doubt that you can find academics and talking heads who refer to non-caucasian people in prison as slaves-but that simply does not make it so.Prisoners got to where they are via their Life choices-an Alien concept to actual slaves.

At first I thought that you may have mis-quoted when you described neo slavery in the USA,but now I think that you actually believe what you said,and meant it.I don't Believe the topic merits any more time now and it is now akin to argueing with a flat-Earth advocate.

Regards.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

AA do not make up 30% of the population of the US,they make up between 12-14% of the population and though they are heavily over-represented in prison populations,the fact that they are there does not equate to slavery.

Do you see all prisoners as slaves,or just the browner ones? I have no doubt that you can find academics and talking heads who refer to non-caucasian people in prison as slaves-but that simply does not make it so.Prisoners got to where they are via their Life choices-an Alien concept to actual slaves.

At first I thought that you may have mis-quoted when you described neo slavery in the USA,but now I think that you actually believe what you said,and meant it.I don't Believe the topic merits any more time now and it is now akin to argueing with a flat-Earth advocate.

Regards.

If you read any of the quoted articles you would see they nor I are advocating that there is a new slavery just because people are in prison. Maybe if you actually read the articles with an open mind you might actually understand the point being made. But obviously you have a wee bee in your bonnet and will not accept another person view of the American Criminal Justice System. By the way you took us off to this topic by taking issue with one part of a response to one poster, who had no issue with what I said. I have a view based on research of the US criminal justice system, accepted as being one of the most dysfunctional in the world.

BTW you are correct on my stats re population it should have read about 15% is African American while they make up in excess of 30% of the prison population followed closely by the Hispanic population. Together African American and Hispanic populations make up over 30% of the total population yet in excess of 60% of the prison population.

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

If you read any of the quoted articles you would see they nor I are advocating that there is a new slavery just because people are in prison. Maybe if you actually read the articles with an open mind you might actually understand the point being made. But obviously you have a wee bee in your bonnet and will not accept another person view of the American Criminal Justice System. By the way you took us off to this topic by taking issue with one part of a response to one poster, who had no issue with what I said. I have a view based on research of the US criminal justice system, accepted as being one of the most dysfunctional in the world.

BTW you are correct on my stats re population it should have read about 15% is African American while they make up in excess of 30% of the prison population followed closely by the Hispanic population. Together African American and Hispanic populations make up over 30% of the total population yet in excess of 60% of the prison population.

I read through the links you provided,and I do strive to be openminded on the issues posted within,though also not willing to accecpt any voodoo-science or chicanery when discussing matters of race and society in the western World.

My issue was you using the phrase "reintroduction of slavery for the Latino and AA population" which I believe to be hyperbolic and grossly inaccurate, it does no justice in explaining the much higher incarceration levels among Latinos and AA, and to suggest that Contemporary incarceration and slavery can be equated,is I believe, a slur on those innocent people captured and born into slavery.

I gave you a Little statistic earlier that helps explain the higher incarceration rates for Latinos and AA,the example that I used,Chicago,can be replicated in other major cities also.

As for the statistical anomaly of 30% of the population taking 70% of prison places,we can use Occams razor and say that it is because the 30% cause more crime.The reasons as why that is will probably not be discussed here out of decourm.

oscarBravo

crockholm wrote: »

As for the statistical anomaly of 30% of the population taking 70% of prison places,we can use Occams razor and say that it is because the 30% cause more crime.

You could say that. You'd be wrong.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

I read through the links you provided,and I do strive to be openminded on the issues posted within,though also not willing to accecpt any voodoo-science or chicanery when discussing matters of race and society in the western World.

My issue was you using the phrase "reintroduction of slavery for the Latino and AA population" which I believe to be hyperbolic and grossly inaccurate, it does no justice in explaining the much higher incarceration levels among Latinos and AA, and to suggest that Contemporary incarceration and slavery can be equated,is I believe, a slur on those innocent people captured and born into slavery.

I gave you a Little statistic earlier that helps explain the higher incarceration rates for Latinos and AA,the example that I used,Chicago,can be replicated in other major cities also.

As for the statistical anomaly of 30% of the population taking 70% of prison places,we can use Occams razor and say that it is because the 30% cause more crime.The reasons as why that is will probably not be discussed here out of decourm.

And many studies show that all the races commit the same level of drug crime yet more Aftican Americans are jailed because of such crimes. You also ignore the issue of multi billion industry that is the prison service. If a country jails more than any other and has a large working population not properly rewarded for same. Taking people's liberty and forcing them to work.

Scofflaw

crockholm wrote:

As for the statistical anomaly of 30% of the population taking 70% of prison places,we can use Occams razor and say that it is because the 30% cause more crime.

That's not actually a valid use of Occam's Razor. It's similar to claiming that the simplest explanation for the Sun appearing to go round the Earth is that it does so.

amused,
Scofflaw

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

And many studies show that all the races commit the same level of drug crime yet more Aftican Americans are jailed because of such crimes. You also ignore the issue of multi billion industry that is the prison service. If a country jails more than any other and has a large working population not properly rewarded for same. Taking people's liberty and forcing them to work.

Just asking,but if a drug transaction was busted,would you expect equal sentences,or a longer term for the dealer?
As for the prisons-if the public feel that they are getting more bang for their buck with private prisons,that is really up to the voting public to demand whether or not they wish to continue with such a programme.

The prisoners Liberty has been taken because they have been deemed guilty Before a jury of their peers.I am not going to feel bad for some stick up boy spending the next few years away from the general public,he breaks the social contract,he has to face the consequences.

Now,with regards forcing prisoners to work,I would ask you-how many of these schemes are voluntary?How many prisons actually physically force inmates to work? I always assumed that it was a carrot and stick approach and that by participating in such schemes the prisoner could earn a Little Money and in an ideal World this would show the inmate the value of working legit.And in a way,help to contribute a little towards the cost of their incarceration.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

Just asking,but if a drug transaction was busted,would you expect equal sentences,or a longer term for the dealer?
As for the prisons-if the public feel that they are getting more bang for their buck with private prisons,that is really up to the voting public to demand whether or not they wish to continue with such a programme.

The prisoners Liberty has been taken because they have been deemed guilty Before a jury of their peers.I am not going to feel bad for some stick up boy spending the next few years away from the general public,he breaks the social contract,he has to face the consequences.

Now,with regards forcing prisoners to work,I would ask you-how many of these schemes are voluntary?How many prisons actually physically force inmates to work? I always assumed that it was a carrot and stick approach and that by participating in such schemes the prisoner could earn a Little Money and in an ideal World this would show the inmate the value of working legit.And in a way,help to contribute a little towards the cost of their incarceration.

You again miss the point. A system that is predisposed to incarcerate certain people because of race and or poverty is a issue.

It matters not if it's voluntary or not what matters is the system and does it create a system of slavery. It's funny read a recent article on the area around 12 years a slave a comment by one person was the slaves must have been ok with it when they got freedom they did not leave the area.

crockholm

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's not actually a valid use of Occam's Razor. It's similar to claiming that the simplest explanation for the Sun appearing to go round the Earth is that it does so.

amused,
Scofflaw

Bemused at your amusement,


corduroy,
Crockholm

Scofflaw

crockholm wrote: »

Bemused at your amusement,


corduroy,
Crockholm

Don't be bemused (or corduroy), there's no need! You claimed to have supporting logic, but were only in fact indulging in a set of logical fallacies. I found the extent of the logical fallacies involved entertaining, particularly the claim that Occam's Razor can be used to decide that the simplest solution is necessarily correct when one arrives at that simplest explanation by ignoring the majority of evidence. I don't doubt you believe that's actually meaningful, which is what makes it entertaining.

cordially,
Scofflaw

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

You again miss the point. A system that is predisposed to incarcerate certain people because of race and or poverty is a issue.

It matters not if it's voluntary or not what matters is the system and does it create a system of slavery. It's funny read a recent article on the area around 12 years a slave a comment by one person was the slaves must have been ok with it when they got freedom they did not leave the area.

The people of whom you speak are incarcerated for breaking the law.I fail to see why they should be released on grounds of wealth or race.

Again,I fail to see how you equate prison with slavery.

As for the "12 years a slave" don't spoil it on me,I haven't seen the Movie yet.

Pro Hoc Vice

crockholm wrote: »

The people of whom you speak are incarcerated for breaking the law.I fail to see why they should be released on grounds of wealth or race.

Again,I fail to see how you equate prison with slavery.

As for the "12 years a slave" don't spoil it on me,I haven't seen the Movie yet.

Nor have I, but I'm out having the first drink in over a week (was sick) so before I get legless night.

BTW I never said people should be released because of race or wealth, just that it's funny that the USA has a huge prison population.

crockholm

infosys wrote: »

Nor have I, but I'm out having the first drink in over a week (was sick) so before I get legless night.

BTW I never said people should be released because of race or wealth, just that it's funny that the USA has a huge prison population.

Well,have fun (if possible,with the subject of the film being what it is) and please don't come back too legless and spoil it for me;)

As for the US prison population,you will often hear in this country the claim that we don't jail enough people here.I can't in good faith say which is better.

eire4

GUYMAN wrote: »

I can make no guarantee that Ireland will be more prosperous outside of the EU - frankly I think some things are more important than that. I simply said the EU will seek to take away whatever wealth you do have in unaccountable ways - as all giant, uncontrolable government entities do. As far as what you said about the USA - you happen to be right. I have many faults, but hypocrisy is not one of them. I believe in civil liberties, private property, more personal responsibility, less government, national sovereignty, a place for God in the public sphere, peace not war - and I believe those principles should apply to all nations. My country, being the superpower that it is holds more responsibility than others for some of the problems in this world, there's no doubt of that.

The last thing Ireland and or the EU need is religion in the public sphere especially considering the outright evil that has been inflicted by religion on so many with much state collusion in Ireland since independance.

hatrickpatrick

infosys wrote: »

Can you explain how Ireland has had its independence reduced

Simple - there are many policy areas we no longer have full national autonomy over since conceding veto powers for some policy areas under Lisbon. Ergo, Ireland could be forced to implement policies in these areas that the majority of us disapprove of if the rest of Europe votes for them.

Pro Hoc Vice

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple - there are many policy areas we no longer have full national autonomy over since conceding veto powers for some policy areas under Lisbon. Ergo, Ireland could be forced to implement policies in these areas that the majority of us disapprove of if the rest of Europe votes for them.

Can you list the areas Ireland no longer has full national autonomy over. Can you also point to any EU legislation or Case law that has then brought in any law, scheme or any situation that has in the negative forced Ireland to adopt system that the majority of Irish disagree with.

Also in all cases where any power has shifted from the National to the EU Ireland has agreed to same by referendum.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple - there are many policy areas we no longer have full national autonomy over since conceding veto powers for some policy areas under Lisbon. Ergo, Ireland could be forced to implement policies in these areas that the majority of us disapprove of if the rest of Europe votes for them.

Nonsense. The reason why a qualified majority voting system applies at EU level is because the member states of the EU have exercised their individual sovereignties and agreed that such a system would apply. Hence, they have all consented to accepting QMV decisions made by the qualified majority.

No one is being "forced" to accept a decision if they have agreed they will accept and implement it.

Scofflaw

View wrote: »

Nonsense. The reason why a qualified majority voting system applies at EU level is because the member states of the EU have exercised their individual sovereignties and agreed that such a system would apply. Hence, they have all consented to accepting QMV decisions made by the qualified majority.

No one is being "forced" to accept a decision if they have agreed they will accept and implement it.

One has to bear in mind the tendency of Irish (and most Member State) governments to agree to something in Europe, then present it domestically as an external decision by "the EU". The Water Services Directive, and the non-exemption of schools, springs to mind immediately.

With respect to Ireland's record on the Council, we've only been in a minority position 10 times in the last 511 Council votes - and we weren't voting against, but abstaining, in all of those. See: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/council-minority-votes.html#/#18/0/2009-07-14/2014-07-14/INT

Both the Irish people and the Irish government have separately accepted that the areas now falling under QMV should do so, and thereby have accepted the possibility (and it seems largely only to be that) that Ireland may be outvoted in the Council in those areas. As far as that goes, therefore, the position of the eurosceptical is, I'm afraid, simply a minority position objecting to the expressed will of the majority. hatrickpatrick may not like the fact that Ireland has agreed to accept majority voting, but it has done so.

However, as I've said before, that doesn't mean there isn't a democratic deficit - my main disagreement with people relates to where that gap falls. What we lack is adequate control over our own government in Europe. Rather than crying over sovereignty that was democratically abridged by the people of Ireland, we should be dealing with the practical consequences of that. Voting, and the positions taken, by the Irish government in Europe should be as much a matter of media, public, and Dáil attention as any other policy or legislative action by our representatives, and currently it isn't.

I appreciate that for some people it's simply not possible for the EU to be legitimate because it's not a nation, and can only become one by becoming something even worse than it is now, but the majority of people do not agree with that position - even when people are voting No, it's rarely on that basis. Whether one holds such a position or not, though, the people still deserve, and currently are not getting, adequate democratic accountability from their government in Europe. That's a practical issue, and more deserving of attention than the hankering for a concept of untrammeled Irish sovereignty which is frankly unrealistic.

cordially,
Scofflaw