holistic paretning.

finnead

hi all.

so i have been trying to find some like minded groups of people, there is a website in america called holistic moms, and its all about paretning with "alternative" methods. it sounds a bit more intense written like that! but its more exploring other ways of raising your kids such as no vaccinations, a greener house, i.e no chemical products such as shampoos or soap or washing powder. shopping with more knowladge, like maybe bringing the dirty dozen list with you when heading out for the weekly food shop! and lots of other things.

I know there must be other people who are living their family lives like this and have lots of other little dos and don'ts too. id love to get chatting and see what they are!

cool, thanks.

Chattastrophe!

In my opinion, refusing to give your kids vaccinations is just downright irresponsible, and unfair on other members of society, particularly those who are most vulnerable.

nikpmup

Exactly - it's not just your kids that it affects

pwurple

"Holistic" does not mean avoiding everything going. It means embracing completeness.

Maybe speak to someone who works in a children's ward, and think about the damage that unvaccinated children carrying disease can do to sick children. Fatality rate for something like measles among the immunosupressed runs at 25-30%. That's a terrifying thought for the parent of a child who is undergoing cancer treatment, getting a transplant, or has any other kind of immuno-definiency condition.

finnead

well great that is YOUR opinion. i wasnt asking for yours i was asking if there were people out there who believe in what i believe in. and there are plenty. if you wish to pump your children with toxic chemicals that is your choice and i have no problem with it, that is your choice. its not like i woke up some day and decided hey, lets try this. your narrow mindedness makes me so angry. just because some big company spends billions on advertising and tell you all the reasons why and none of the reasons why not does not merit you telling me i am a bad parent. take a good long look in the mirror is thats what you really believe.

also i am well a wear of cancer wards having spent many months in and out of them with my family. i am well a wear of illness and sickness and death. so DO NOT try and make me feel bad about my chocies when the food we are eating and the drugs we are taking are a big part of the reason people i know and love have ended up in there.

go read some non biased information for yourself before you go throwing around your "facts" and judging how i live my life and raise my family.

Dravokivich

finnead wrote: »

if you wish to pump your children with toxic chemicals that is your choice and i have no problem with it, that is your choice.

Vaccines are not toxic chemicals.

How about you have a read of this article with the headline "Parents' fear of vaccinations nearly killed their son":

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/06/06/3776327.htm

nikpmup

You may not wish to "pump your children full of toxic chemicals" and while I feel sorry for your children, that's your decision. However, it is NOT the choice of the parent of the immunosuppressed child, who YOUR child then endangers.

Edit: also, I didn't listen to a big company who spent millions on advertising regarding vaccines. I listened to my GP and my consultant, who have medical degrees and many years of experience, and who conduct evidence-based practice.

nicowa

finnead wrote: »

well great that is YOUR opinion. i wasnt asking for yours i was asking if there were people out there who believe in what i believe in. and there are plenty. if you wish to pump your children with toxic chemicals that is your choice and i have no problem with it, that is your choice. its not like i woke up some day and decided hey, lets try this. your narrow mindedness makes me so angry. just because some big company spends billions on advertising and tell you all the reasons why and none of the reasons why not does not merit you telling me i am a bad parent. take a good long look in the mirror is thats what you really believe.

also i am well a wear of cancer wards having spent many months in and out of them with my family. i am well a wear of illness and sickness and death. so DO NOT try and make me feel bad about my chocies when the food we are eating and the drugs we are taking are a big part of the reason people i know and love have ended up in there.

go read some non biased information for yourself before you go throwing around your "facts" and judging how i live my life and raise my family.

I sincerely applaud your choices and determination to forego as many of life's bad chemicals as you possibly can. Going organic and green is probably best practice and more should do it (it would bring the costs down for everyone).

But vaccinations and modern medicine are the best thing to happen to us. Have you really done your homework on this? On both sides of the argument?

I was discussing this subject with my mother in law the other night. And while she witnessed the 0.01% who get the worst reaction ever, while she's afraid of the vaccines in a more acute way, she would still never argue against vaccines. Because she had a son (has) who was severely immuno suppressed as a child, who benefitted from the herd protection offered by vaccines.

And a .01% chance is a hell of a lot worse than a 20-30% chance in any scenario.

robindch

finnead wrote: »

[...] no vaccinations [...]

Your attitude is irresponsible and stupid.

My niece has suffers from a rare genetic disorder which means her immune system is almost completely broken. She has to rely on herd immunity (which comes from having everybody vaccinated) in order to cut down on vaccine-preventable diseases so that she doesn't spend all of her young life sick. As it is, she's in and out of hospital almost on a weekly basis with wildly fluctuating temperatures, fevers, diseases, MRSA infections, cold and just about everything else that's going around. We're scared to hell that she could catch something vaccine-preventable like measles which could disable or kill her.

Your "I won't vaccinate my vulnerable child because I don't have a clue" is directly putting my niece's health and possibly my niece's life at risk. I think I'll leave it at that since I'm getting upset and am likely to say something that will get me banned.

Otherwise, what Penn and Teller said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

eviltwin

I cannot believe someone is actually here advocating for NOT giving a child vaccinations. The vast majority of us in this country have had our vaccinations...most of us are fine. Of course anything medical carries a risk but you have to weigh that up against the reality of what measles etc can do. I think its awful you would put your childs health as such a low priority to satisfy your eco friendly ideals.

How Strange

I applaud that you're questioning everything and not just accepting what you're told and doing the conventional thing but on the issue of childhood vaccinations I think you have to consider the risks of not vaccinating your child. The diseases that were almost eradicated due to an effective immunisation programme are now on the increase.

I really couldn't find any convincing information not to immunise my children. There's a lot of scaremongering and misinformation on both sides of the argument.

There's a risk in giving the vaccination especially to babies but I decided the risk to their health was greater if I didn't immunise. I'm sceptical about vaccinations myself and decided not to get the whooping cough or flu vaccines on my last pregnancy but I feel parents are being used as pawns in the debate about children's' vaccinations. On one side there's statistics and data and the other it's far too emotive.

One thing I do know is that these now preventable diseases seriously injure the health of children or can kill them. I think we've no awareness of how terrifying they can be as we've not experienced them in our lifetime.

pwurple

I'm the biggest food hippy going... We make all our own bread using our own yeast starters rather than packets. We make our own natural yoghurt. We have fruit trees & bushes, nut trees and a big fat veg patch in the garden. All organic. I only buy meat from places where I visited the farms, and I know the all farmers and butchers personally. All anti-biotic free and well cared for. My fish comes from nearby, usually caught that day. I am extremely vigilant about what my family eats. We eat real food.

Even my skincare is organic. We barely even need to recycle anything we buy so little with packaging. We are saving up for solar panels, and I'm even planning on building a small wood-burning outdoor oven out of clay, old bottles, and rocks I've been digging up around the place, so we can cook sometimes without using electricity. We even moved house to be near enough to walk/cycle everywhere we need, and have access to public transport as much as possible. We are, for sure, green.

I consider vaccines to be a superb example of a natural process. A natural virus, causing a natural body response. I honestly am extremely judgemental of people who choose not to vaccinate. I feel very strongly about those who deliberately choose to make others suffer.

Penny Dreadful

finnead wrote: »

well great that is YOUR opinion. i wasnt asking for yours i was asking if there were people out there who believe in what i believe in. and there are plenty. if you wish to pump your children with toxic chemicals that is your choice and i have no problem with it, that is your choice. its not like i woke up some day and decided hey, lets try this. your narrow mindedness makes me so angry. just because some big company spends billions on advertising and tell you all the reasons why and none of the reasons why not does not merit you telling me i am a bad parent. take a good long look in the mirror is thats what you really believe.

also i am well a wear of cancer wards having spent many months in and out of them with my family. i am well a wear of illness and sickness and death. so DO NOT try and make me feel bad about my chocies when the food we are eating and the drugs we are taking are a big part of the reason people i know and love have ended up in there.

go read some non biased information for yourself before you go throwing around your "facts" and judging how i live my life and raise my family.

I have an actual fact. My brother who did not receive the MMR (we were born before it was widely available) almost died from measles.
Not vaccinating your children is highly irresponsible not only for them but also for everyone else in society.

You may choose to eat what you want and feed that food to your children, you may choose to use the most eco friendly products for your hygiene and to clean your house and that doesn't affect anyone else and so is entirely your business.
When you choose not to avail of the best (well research, well founded, well tried and tested) medications and healthcare available to your children or yourself you are (in my and many many other people's opinions too ) behaving irresponsibly and being reckless with the lives of all.

sadie06

This what happens when anti-vaccination groups emerge in a particular area:

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=20839

You may think you are just looking after your own, making your own decisions, but I believe you have a public responsibility to vaccinate your children. We are very lucky to live in an area of the world where infant and child mortality rates are very low, and that is largely because of vaccination.

I applaud all of your other interests though!

Grumpypants

finnead wrote: »

go read some non biased information for yourself before you go throwing around your "facts" and judging how i live my life and raise my family.

What you are saying is you don't believe the years of scientific studies, peer reviewed documents, the advice of every doctor and the fact of an ever decreasing rate of child mortality thanks to vaccines.

But you do believe what you read on some random American website called holistic moms that activity tells you to put your children in danger.

You will find others out there, the internet is full of all sorts of crazy dangerous people, the ones that actively work to harm children's health are particularly worrying.

Cutting down on the use of harsh chemicals, eating more natural local produce, wearing natural products, not driving a car but walking or cycling, using sustainable sources of materials are all great ideas.

Ignoring the one thing that means you get to live a longer healthier life is not.

Big Bag of Chips

I find it slightly ironic that in the course of defending your choices, and pointing out that nobody has the right to call you a bad parent, you proceed to call every parent who vaccinates their child a bad parent for "pumping them full of toxic chemicals", and not doing their research.

There are arguments on both sides.

And as is always said... If you post on a public forum, you're not always going to like what you hear in response.

Edit: btw - I didn't see where anyone said you were a "bad parent". People disagreed with what you believe in... you are the only one who used the phrase "bad parent"

Akrasia

Just get your kids vaccinated please.

BBC rebroadcased their 'Pandemic' documentary last night and it just re-enforces how astonishingly fortunate we are that we live in the modern era where we don't have to worry Polio, Smallpox and TB (although this is coming back due to un-vaccinated populations allowing the bacteria to mutate and evolve into antibiotic resistent strains)

The ability to vaccinate ourselves against disease is probably up there in the top 10 human acheivements of all time and it is so frustrating that it is being compromised by a small group of contrarians, snake oil merchants and charlatans and a larger group of well meaning but overly credulous people.

robindch

finnead wrote: »

[...] your narrow mindedness makes me so angry [...]

You might want to think about who's being narrow-minded here - on the one side, we have 150 years of medical practice and the virtual eradication of dangerous, potentially fatal diseases like measles, polio, mumps, rubella and many more.

And on the other side, we have a US website which is paid for by a range of woo-merchants.

As I said, your behaviour is directly risking the health and perhaps the life of my niece and I would ask you politely to take a long, hard look at your own irresponsible and dangerous behavior - if not for your sake, or the sake of your own at-risk children, but for my family.

Big Bag of Chips

Just on the vaccination issue... if your child were to get sick with one of the diseases mentioned - would you bring them to the doctor? Would you allow them to be admitted to hospital and treated?

I think it is good to have "ideals" in life - but I also think it is good to allow yourself to be open to other opinions, advice and experience.

_Kaiser_

Sorry OP, I have to completely agree with the majority here. You're putting your children and others at increased risk because of some new-age "lifestyle choice" (I could use other words to describe it, but I like my posting rights )

Whatever about eating healthier and cutting back on some of the unnecessary excesses of modern life, the extent you're talking about seems very irresponsible to me.

December2012

Sure what has medicine ever done for anybody, huh?

Penny Dreadful

December2012 wrote: »

Sure what has medicine ever done for anybody, huh?

When you think of something as easy to obtain as paracetamol (which is something we tend to take very much for granted now) and where we'd be without it.
A high temperature can kill you - paracetamol helps control it. You can buy generic paracetamol for very little in any shop in Ireland.
In many parts of the world people would give anything to obtain this medicine.

Its so insulting to the countless healthcare professionals, scientists, chemists, researchers, etc to state that their work is nothing more than pushing a load of toxic chemicals on unsuspecting people by big corporations. :mad:

enda1

finnead wrote: »

well great that is YOUR opinion. i wasnt asking for yours i was asking if there were people out there who believe in what i believe in. and there are plenty. if you wish to pump your children with toxic chemicals that is your choice and i have no problem with it, that is your choice. its not like i woke up some day and decided hey, lets try this. your narrow mindedness makes me so angry. just because some big company spends billions on advertising and tell you all the reasons why and none of the reasons why not does not merit you telling me i am a bad parent. take a good long look in the mirror is thats what you really believe.

also i am well a wear of cancer wards having spent many months in and out of them with my family. i am well a wear of illness and sickness and death. so DO NOT try and make me feel bad about my chocies when the food we are eating and the drugs we are taking are a big part of the reason people i know and love have ended up in there.

go read some non biased information for yourself before you go throwing around your "facts" and judging how i live my life and raise my family.

You're not just a bad parent, your are a terrible, child-abusing parent. You are consciously making a choice that has a good chance to harm if not kill the children under your care but also others in society. The choices you are forcing upon the children in your care are very bad, borderline criminal choices. The children under your care should be taken from you.

Moonbeam

OK folks please do not be abusive towards other posters .
Thread will be edited properly when I am hone .

sari

Wow I can't believe the abuse in some of these posts it's crazy!!
You are perfectly entitled to parent your children how you wish. You are perfectly entitled to not a vaccinate if you wish, just please make sure you do good research on it, stay away from die hard anti vax sites, while some info on them is actually true they are also extremely biased. I knew some people who have been severely and permanently injured from vaccines so when it came time for my child to be vaccinated it was something I spent a lot of time and effort looking into. I asked my gp so many questions and was actually shocked to see he didn't know the answers to many. Your first responsibility is to your child nobody else's, although many don't like to admit this it's true. Nobody wants to see any child get sick but when it boils down to it you will protect your child before another's, who would sacrifice or potentially sacrifice their own child's health to ensure the health of another's?
That doesn't mean you don't care about others but realistically you will protect your own first. While some may not agree with your choices they are yours and you are perfectly entitled to them.
I think you are up for a serious amount of abuse, personal insults and attacks here, you don't need that, if it was me I would ask for this thread to be closed to spare yourself from it

Penny Dreadful

sari wrote: »

Wow I can't believe the abuse in some of these posts it's crazy!!
You are perfectly entitled to parent your children how you wish. You are perfectly entitled to not a vaccinate if you wish, just please make sure you do good research on it, stay away from die hard anti vax sites, while some info on them is actually true they are also extremely biased. I knew some people who have been severely and permanently injured from vaccines so when it came time for my child to be vaccinated it was something I spent a lot of time and effort looking into. I asked my gp so many questions and was actually shocked to see he didn't know the answers to many. Your first responsibility is to your child nobody else's, although many don't like to admit this it's true. Nobody wants to see any child get sick but when it boils down to it you will protect your child before another's, who would sacrifice or potentially sacrifice their own child's health to ensure the health of another's?
That doesn't mean you don't care about others but realistically you will protect your own first. While some may not agree with your choices they are yours and you are perfectly entitled to them.
I think you are up for a serious amount of abuse, personal insults and attacks here, you don't need that, if it was me I would ask for this thread to be closed to spare yourself from it

The vast majority of people are of the belief that not vaccinating is abuse. Not only of your own child but of others in society.
We are herd animals/ people and how an individual lives their life often impacts on the rest of the herd.
Take the over use of antibiotics for example. Your child is sick, you have antibiotics at home and you decide against or without medical advice to medicate that child. They get better - maybe because of your decision to self medicate or maybe because they had a virus and would have gotten better anyway. However, the next time they're sick the antiobiotics won't be as effective - and on and on it goes- the bacteria get more virulent and your act of medicating your child has had an impact on society.

Every single medication comes with the potential of side affects. This is not hidden or covered up. The information is there. For every person who has a bad side effect to a medication or vaccination there are many more whose lives are saved as a result of it.
I had to get vaccinations for travelling to Africa a few years ago and I had an odd and rarely seen side affect to those that I had to be injected with. This was problematic, uncomfortable, painful and ultimately financialy costly for me. It happens. However, I don't regret getting the vaccinations. The side effect was better than the illnesses that would most likely have killed me. In fact, so dangerous were some of these (Yellow Fever) that I wouldn't have been allowed entry into some of the countries if I hadn't had it.

Moonbeam

Now that I have computer access again this thread is being closed.

Moonbeam

enda1 wrote: »

You're not just a bad parent, your are a terrible, child-abusing parent. You are consciously making a choice that has a good chance to harm if not kill the children under your care but also others in society. The choices you are forcing upon the children in your care are very bad, borderline criminal choices. The children under your care should be taken from you.

Please do not abuse other posters. You are allowed to have an opinion and state it but please do so in a civil manner.