Subject Choice for Leaving Cert Help

lukebyrne

Hi, I'm in TY now in Wexford and we need to choose our subjects soon, and I'd just like some advice regarding some subjects.

So far, my current choices are listed:

English (A in JC)
Irish (C in JC)
Maths (B in JC)

Geography (A in JC)
French (B in JC)
Music (Didn't do for Junior Cert, but currently on Grade VIII on piano)
Applied Maths (Not JC subject but B in Science for JC and B in Maths)

Japanese (outside of school)

All JC subjects are HL.

My questions are:

1. Is Higher Level Irish worth it? I'll do HL in every other subject. I didn't try at all for HL Irish in JC, but perhaps if I studied properly for it in LC I would do better. Is the course hard?

2. I most definitely want to do Geography, French and Music for LC. But, is it possible to do Music for LC without JC? In TY, I found it extremely easy due to knowing the theory from piano, but is any knowledge of JC Music needed?

3. I am torn between a variety of subjects for my 7th subject (Applied Maths, Economics, Physics). Has anyone any insight into these subjects?

4. Finally, I am extremely interested in doing Japanese outside of school for LC. I already have a lot of knowledge (Hiragana, Katakana, some Kanji and basic grammar). Is much more needed for the exam? I've heard the exam is similar to other LC languages, can anyone confirm this?

Many thanks in advance

d1234

Hi - can only help you with a few of these questions but anyways!!

1. Irish - I would recommend you to at least try HL Irish if you can speak it at all or indeed willing to go to the Gaeltacht, Irish groups etc. I know it sounds a pain but believe me if you try to improve your talking skills everything will be fine. 40% of the marks are for the oral exam and 10% are for the aural or listening section. The paper is generally fine and it is much easier to get an A1 in higher than ordinary.

2. With music I know a few people who picked it up for LC without doing it for the JC. But again like the Irish you'd want to have a good knowledge (which you seem to have) as as far as I know there is a high % going for the practical exam.

Can't help you with 3 but with 4 I'd advise you to look at the course - http://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/6aaec8af-748f-4cdf-9e72-e0348297e42f/SCSEC23_Japanese_Syllabus_eng.pdf. Contact the NCCA or SEC if you have any qs about that.

Good luck!!

robman60

d1234 wrote: »

Hi - can only help you with a few of these questions but anyways!!

1. Irish - I would recommend you to at least try HL Irish if you can speak it at all or indeed willing to go to the Gaeltacht, Irish groups etc. I know it sounds a pain but believe me if you try to improve your talking skills everything will be fine. 40% of the marks are for the oral exam and 10% are for the aural or listening section. The paper is generally fine and it is much easier to get an A1 in higher than ordinary.

Hang on a second, that's very misleading. It's most certainly not easier to get an A1 in higher than in ordinary, but more people get A1s in higher as anyone capable of an A1 in ordinary should be doing higher.

It's definitely hard to get a top grade in Irish. I know in my class anyone who got less than a B in the JC is struggling badly, and will have difficulty reaching the C3 level I'd imagine.


Languages seem to be your forté so try to play to that strength.

d1234

robman60 wrote: »

Hang on a second, that's very misleading. It's most certainly not easier to get an A1 in higher than in ordinary, but more people get A1s in higher as anyone capable of an A1 in ordinary should be doing higher.

It's definitely hard to get a top grade in Irish. I know in my class anyone who got less than a B in the JC is struggling badly, and will have difficulty reaching the C3 level I'd imagine.


Languages seem to be your forté so try to play to that strength.

Well not necessarily. I do understand that it takes a lot of skill to get an A1 in any subject regardless of level etc. In 2013, nearly 6% got an A1 in HL whereas 0.4% got an A1 in OL. That's 92 students out of 23000.

Also, it's important to note that there are many similarities between the two courses.Same poetry to be studied, listen to the same cd, essays - even though OL topics are easier.

Look at it this way. A1 OL = 60 marks. C3 HL = 60 marks.

90.3% of higher level students got their 60 marks or even higher. (15,052 students). 0.4% got got 60 marks at ordinary level (92 students).

Fail rate at higher level is 0.4%. Fail rate at ordinary level is 4.4%.

I'd go with Higher.

Figures from Careers Portal.ie

DK man

In our school junior cert music is not needed for entry into leaving cert. our music teacher would love to have a grade 8 piano student - the last one got an a1 last year.

If you don't have a science subject you are going to limit your options for college - u got a b at Jc so it shouldn't be a problem academically.

robman60

@d1234; Funny how you conveniently switch from A1s to suddenly comparing equal points!

I agree that it's easier to get 60 points in higher (C3) than in ordinary (A1). What you originally said and reiterated in your most recent post is that it's easier to get an A1 in higher than ordinary which is ridiculous. Although there is a lot of the same content, the questions aren't comparable. For example an essay of leathleathanach nó mar sin isn't comparable to the 500-600 words for honours. The reason a higher percentage get A1s in honours is only the good students do honours to begin with. It doesn't reflect on the difficulty


If my school is even vaguely representative of the national average, then I'm not surprised so few people get A1s in ordinary level. 80% of people are in ordinary in my school and I can safely say without exception they've written off the subject, unfortunately.

Going off on a tangent here, but a majority of people seem to just feel overwhelmed by maths and languages and never reach their potential due to feeling that they'd never be even reasonable at these subjects.

vcshqkf9rpzgoe

Have a look at previous Japenese exams on examinations.ie under marking schemes

AtomicKoala

If you are going to do Applied Maths, I'd definitely advise you to do Physics. Economics is supposedly easier (if you're inclined to these sort of subjects), however Physics is a science (and you'll need at least one for most science based courses), and somewhat ties into Applied Maths.

As for Japanese, if you're going to take it up, I'd say drop to OL Irish if you got a C in the JC, unless you really want to keep it up - you probably wont get any points from it. But leave dropping until towards 6th year, you never know what may happen!

Also, are you really sure you want to do Geography? I'm sure some people like it, but in my biased opinion it looks awful dreary

lukebyrne

AtomicKoala wrote: »

If you are going to do Applied Maths, I'd definitely advise you to do Physics. Economics is supposedly easier (if you're inclined to these sort of subjects), however Physics is a science (and you'll need at least one for most science based courses), and somewhat ties into Applied Maths.

As for Japanese, if you're going to take it up, I'd say drop to OL Irish if you got a C in the JC, unless you really want to keep it up - you probably wont get any points from it. But leave dropping until towards 6th year, you never know what may happen!

Also, are you really sure you want to do Geography? I'm sure some people like it, but in my biased opinion it looks awful dreary

So would you suggest Physics over Applied Maths (or vice versa)? Yes I agree, the syllabus for Applied Maths is basically HL Maths + Physics, I've heard some people saying they didn't study Applied Maths but did Maths and Physics and got as high as a C. :eek:

And for Japanese, I think that would be probably the wisest option. Yes, dropping until 6th year is quite a good idea I suppose!

Geography is my favourite subject

robman60 wrote: »

The reason a higher percentage get A1s in honours is only the good students do honours to begin with. It doesn't reflect on the difficulty

That would make excellent sense.

Thank you all for your help! It seems HL vs. OL Irish is a topic of wise debate

Mr Pseudonym

lukebyrne wrote: »

So would you suggest Physics over Applied Maths (or vice versa)? Yes I agree, the syllabus for Applied Maths is basically HL Maths + Physics, I've heard some people saying they didn't study Applied Maths but did Maths and Physics and got as high as a C.

They're lying!! The maths is no more advanced than Junior Cert level (with one or two exceptions), but there is only one shared topic with Physics (Linear Motion), and it is greatly developed on in AM (to the point that studying Physics provides no benefit). If they were exceptional they may have been able to apply their existing knowledge to the question on Linear Motion (and maybe Relative Velocity) but even then they wouldn't pick up more than 5-10% of the marks on the paper (and I stress, it would take an exceptional student to achieve that). I took up AM after a year of Physics. I went on to get an A1 in both, but there was literally NOTHING I could do when I looked at an AM paper at the beginning of the year.

An average student will find it easier to get a good grade in Phys than AM; a very good one will find it easier in AM. One does not need to have been a very successful JC maths student to achieve high marks in AM, but there is a strong correlation.

lukebyrne

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

They're lying!! The maths is no more advanced than Junior Cert level (with one or two exceptions), but there is only one shared topic with Physics (Linear Motion), and it is greatly developed on in AM (to the point that studying Physics provides no benefit). If they were exceptional they may have been able to apply their existing knowledge to the question on Linear Motion (and maybe Relative Velocity) but even then they wouldn't pick up more than 5-10% of the marks on the paper (and I stress, it would take an exceptional student to achieve that). I took up AM after a year of Physics. I went on to get an A1 in both, but there was literally NOTHING I could do when I looked at an AM paper at the beginning of the year.

An average student will find it easier to get a good grade in Phys than AM; a very good one will find it easier in AM. One does not need to have been a very successful JC maths student to achieve high marks in AM, but there is a strong correlation.

Thank you very much for a clear clarification of them both. Honestly, I still think I'll stick with Applied Maths after reading your insight. Thanks again!

Mr Pseudonym

lukebyrne wrote: »

Thank you very much for a clear clarification of them both. Honestly, I still think I'll stick with Applied Maths after reading your insight. Thanks again!

I'm glad you found it helpful. To clarify, when I said the "maths is no more advanced than Junior Cert level" I meant that the topics aren't - the actual application of them is much more advanced, though. I think it is almost beyond question that AM is the most conceptually difficult LC subject. However, as it has a comparatively short course and there are only so many variants of questions that can be asked, hard work (combined with some understanding) makes it easier than Higher Maths. But, don't be fooled: some who take it flounder.

lukebyrne

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I'm glad you found it helpful. To clarify, when I said the "maths is no more advanced than Junior Cert level" I meant that the topics aren't - the actual application of them is much more advanced, though. I think it is almost beyond question that AM is the most conceptually difficult LC subject. However, as it has a comparatively short course and there are only so many variants of questions that can be asked, hard work (combined with some understanding) makes it easier than Higher Maths. But, don't be fooled: some who take it flounder.

As you can see, the other subjects (besides from Maths) are much more easygoing in comparison, and I like a challenge to keep the brain active. I suppose it'll be interesting to say the least! I'll put down Applied Maths as my 4th choice, and Physics as my 5th and Economics as 6th so in the case of not getting Applied Maths, I'd do Physics anyway.

ProjectManager

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

(to the point that studying Physics provides no benefit). .

I agree with this i.e doing Physics is of no real benefit for Applied Maths, however I would suggest that doing Applied Maths helps with Physics. 30 -40% of the Physics course is called Mechanics which is really Applied Maths at its simplest level. So in this respect it does make sense to do both.

Furthermore I could probably write down everything you have to learn in Applied Maths on one sheet of A4. The rest is practicing maths problems based on that theory. So if you like doing maths problems the Applied Maths makes sense.

Compare that with a subject like Biology or History where there are pages and pages of info to learn. That might give you some idea based on where your abilities lie.

Finally, Applied Maths is a subject that can be done outside of school with a good tutor. It might give you more flexibility to do other subjects in school.

Mr Pseudonym

ProjectManager wrote: »

I would suggest that doing Applied Maths helps with Physics. 30 -40% of the Physics course is called Mechanics which is really Applied Maths at its simplest level.

ProjectManager, in truth, though, the only type of questions that appear on both are those involving the equations of motion - and those don't always appear every year (in long-questions). I have no doubt that the skills developed through studying AM are of benefit to other aspects of Mechanics, but not the content learnt per se.

ProjectManager

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

ProjectManager, in truth, though, the only type of questions that appear on both are those involving the equations of motion - and those don't always appear every year (in long-questions). I have no doubt that the skills developed through studying AM are of benefit to other aspects of Mechanics, but not the content learnt per se.

Mr Pseudonym, this is not true. I have the one of the LC Physics books in my hand and as as I page through I see Forces, Moments, Equilibrium, Pressure, Density, Pressure in Liquids and gases, Buoyancy, Gravity, Circular Motion, Energy, Conservation of Energy, Simple Harmonic Motion, and so on. All of these are covered in great detail in Applied Maths which makes it easier when studying Physics.

And these topics equate to 30 - 40% of the Physics course.

Mr Pseudonym

ProjectManager wrote: »

Mr Pseudonym, this is not true. I have the one of the LC Physics books in my hand and as as I page through I see Forces, Moments, Equilibrium, Pressure, Density, Pressure in Liquids and gases, Buoyancy, Gravity, Circular Motion, Energy, Conservation of Energy, Simple Harmonic Motion, and so on. All of these are covered in great detail in Applied Maths which makes it easier when studying Physics.

And these topics equate to 30 - 40% of the Physics course.

I'll concede your point - I did underestimate the amount! I will say, though, that a chunk of that percentage is non-mathematical. Also (and I'm rather back-peddling as I say this!) some of those topics (SHM and anything to do with Hydrostatics) are developed in entirely different ways: the favourite trick in Physics SHM is getting students to recognise the similarity between F=-ks and a=-(omega^2)s - that would never be seen in AM; though they share the fundamental formulas, the way they're applied is completely different.

I'm aware that my protestations ^ aren't especially dignified!!

Emlie

1. The course isn't complicated its just long. Irish reminds me a lot like English, I'm always going to be stuck for time and that's obviously annoying. Like any subject, to get a good mark you need to be very dedicated. I don't find Irish that interesting and that can be a problem as there is so many phrases and vocab you need to know and when you're not that interested, you're just not motivated and therefore you don't do that well.. The listening for me is tricky but that's just something I've got to continue to work at. Overall, HL Irish really isn't complicated but its just really hard work if you want to do well. There is a lot of learning involved. There is also grammar but luckily enough that's one of the parts I actually like as it is challenging. But if you feel you could do really well in your maths for example and you're good at everything else you might consider dropping to lower if its bringing you down. But try it first and see how it all goes.

2. I did music for JC so maybe not so much a help. But there are girls in my class who haven't and they seem to be doing fine. Mind you, one of them kinda regrets it as she was torn into choosing between art and music. Its really not that complicated a subject. Those less academic seem to get on very well with it. You might be a bit lost at first but I think you'll be able to get the hang of things fairly quickly. Yes there is knowledge of J.C .music within the LC music course, you still write answering phrases, dictation, aural skills but there's also the practical which can count for 50% of the overall grade so you would pretty much do very well in that.

3. I don't do any of them but I say physics might be a good option as it is a science subject firstly which does leave you more options (unless you count geo for tcd) and I think if you have a mathematical mind you will probably enjoy physics and therefore do well in it. Again I really don't know what you like so I can't tell much. I do biology sometimes I wonder if I should have done physics as it'd be maybe more challenging.

4. Nope can't confirm anything but i'd say it'd be interesting..:P

lukebyrne

Emlie wrote: »

1. The course isn't complicated its just long. Irish reminds me a lot like English, I'm always going to be stuck for time and that's obviously annoying. Like any subject, to get a good mark you need to be very dedicated. I don't find Irish that interesting and that can be a problem as there is so many phrases and vocab you need to know and when you're not that interested, you're just not motivated and therefore you don't do that well.. The listening for me is tricky but that's just something I've got to continue to work at. Overall, HL Irish really isn't complicated but its just really hard work if you want to do well. There is a lot of learning involved. There is also grammar but luckily enough that's one of the parts I actually like as it is challenging. But if you feel you could do really well in your maths for example and you're good at everything else you might consider dropping to lower if its bringing you down. But try it first and see how it all goes.

2. I did music for JC so maybe not so much a help. But there are girls in my class who haven't and they seem to be doing fine. Mind you, one of them kinda regrets it as she was torn into choosing between art and music. Its really not that complicated a subject. Those less academic seem to get on very well with it. You might be a bit lost at first but I think you'll be able to get the hang of things fairly quickly. Yes there is knowledge of J.C .music within the LC music course, you still write answering phrases, dictation, aural skills but there's also the practical which can count for 50% of the overall grade so you would pretty much do very well in that.

3. I don't do any of them but I say physics might be a good option as it is a science subject firstly which does leave you more options (unless you count geo for tcd) and I think if you have a mathematical mind you will probably enjoy physics and therefore do well in it. Again I really don't know what you like so I can't tell much. I do biology sometimes I wonder if I should have done physics as it'd be maybe more challenging.

The best insight into Irish I've heard I'll definitely start off in HL then, probably drop to OL to focus on other subjects but might as well give it my best shot!
Music seems to be fine then. I'm sure with a little bit of catching up I'll be okay, I know for a fact that the grades in JC for my class was appalling because none of them payed attention though so I'm sure it'll be interesting to say the least! I got a C in Art in the JC but I had no interest in it at all so I most definitely will do Music.
Finally, I didn't know Geography was a Science in TCD! Interesting I'm still a bit torn between Physics and Applied Maths but I much prefer Maths over Science so I'm swaying towards Applied Maths still in reaction to all your kind help.

d1234

lukebyrne wrote: »

The best insight into Irish I've heard I'll definitely start off in HL then, probably drop to OL to focus on other subjects but might as well give it my best shot!
Music seems to be fine then. I'm sure with a little bit of catching up I'll be okay, I know for a fact that the grades in JC for my class was appalling because none of them payed attention though so I'm sure it'll be interesting to say the least! I got a C in Art in the JC but I had no interest in it at all so I most definitely will do Music.
Finally, I didn't know Geography was a Science in TCD! Interesting I'm still a bit torn between Physics and Applied Maths but I much prefer Maths over Science so I'm swaying towards Applied Maths still in reaction to all your kind help.

Geography is also accepted as a science (only for the science course) in UCD as well for this year onwards.

Oh and getting back to the Irish, I wouldn't really say that you will be very pushed with time for example for your essay you will have 120 minutes to write 2-3 pages whereas in English you have 70 minutes to do a 7 page comparative. Plus for poetry, the poem will be given to you on the sheet!!

robman60

d1234 wrote: »

Geography is also accepted as a science (only for the science course) in UCD as well for this year onwards.

Oh and getting back to the Irish, I wouldn't really say that you will be very pushed with time for example for your essay you will have 120 minutes to write 2-3 pages whereas in English you have 70 minutes to do a 7 page comparative. Plus for poetry, the poem will be given to you on the sheet!!

That's the frustrating thing. Paper 1, time is no issue at all. In fact I'm pretty sure I had about 45 minutes to spare in the mocks in paper 1 and I was very satisfied. Paper 2, however is cruel. I wrote profusely for the entire exam and I still didn't feel I had adequate time. You have to completely rush the comprehensions if you want to have enough time for filíocht, prós, and litríocht breise, I think.

Aspiring

lukebyrne wrote: »

Hi, I'm in TY now in Wexford and we need to choose our subjects soon, and I'd just like some advice regarding some subjects.

So far, my current choices are listed:

English (A in JC)
Irish (C in JC)
Maths (B in JC)

Geography (A in JC)
French (B in JC)
Music (Didn't do for Junior Cert, but currently on Grade VIII on piano)
Applied Maths (Not JC subject but B in Science for JC and B in Maths)

Japanese (outside of school)

All JC subjects are HL.

My questions are:

1. Is Higher Level Irish worth it? I'll do HL in every other subject. I didn't try at all for HL Irish in JC, but perhaps if I studied properly for it in LC I would do better. Is the course hard?

2. I most definitely want to do Geography, French and Music for LC. But, is it possible to do Music for LC without JC? In TY, I found it extremely easy due to knowing the theory from piano, but is any knowledge of JC Music needed?

3. I am torn between a variety of subjects for my 7th subject (Applied Maths, Economics, Physics). Has anyone any insight into these subjects?

4. Finally, I am extremely interested in doing Japanese outside of school for LC. I already have a lot of knowledge (Hiragana, Katakana, some Kanji and basic grammar). Is much more needed for the exam? I've heard the exam is similar to other LC languages, can anyone confirm this?

Many thanks in advance

1. HL Irish is actually not that difficult. Paper 1 a lot of paper two are quite easy with a bit of work. The mock is the same for ol and HL so you might as well do it.

2. Can't help

3. I do applied maths in physics. Physics is a very very doable paper. There are only 26 ( somebody correct me if I'm wrong ) experiments to be learned, and most of them can be written up with common sense. Then the other topics you answer questions on are very interesting. Mechanics, nuclear reactions, particle physics (depending on your teacher), lenses, waves and pretty much every chapter except electricity (in my opinion) are so interesting. Then in the exam on the day you have a large choice in what you answer so. Applied maths is hard I'm not going to sugar coat it. It makes you really understand each topic, in the exam you only have to answer 6/10 questions so it's quite fair. It makes physics calculations seem like first year work tho so if you can do both somehow I would.

4. Can't help

Good luck !

spurious

The Japanese and Russian exams are a much lower standard than the usual school languages. For Japanese and Russian you're only expected to have been studying the language for two years, whereas for French, German, Spanish or Italian you're expected to have a five year course behind you. Have a look at the past papers and see what you make of them.

For the non-curricular languages such as Polish, Lithuanian or Dutch, you are expected to have native speaker standard.

Mr Pseudonym

spurious wrote: »

The Japanese and Russian exams are a much lower standard than the usual school languages. For Japanese and Russian you're only expected to have been studying the language for two years, whereas for French, German, Spanish or Italian you're expected to have a five year course behind you. Have a look at the past papers and see what you make of them.

For the non-curricular languages such as Polish, Lithuanian or Dutch, you are expected to have native speaker standard.

spurious wrote: »

The Japanese and Russian exams are a much lower standard than the usual school languages. For Japanese and Russian you're only expected to have been studying the language for two years, whereas for French, German, Spanish or Italian you're expected to have a five year course behind you. Have a look at the past papers and see what you make of them.

For the non-curricular languages such as Polish, Lithuanian or Dutch, you are expected to have native speaker standard.

There are eight LC foreign modern languages: Arabic, French, German, Hebrew Studies, Italian, Japanese, Russian and Spanish.

F, G, I and S are all of equal standard; the most recent stats show that over a five-year period in the middle of the 00's fewer than five people in total sat Hebrew Studies, so it can be ignored; I have been told by native speakers that Arabic and Russian are both challenging subjects, and therefore imagine it would not be in any way appropriate for a beginner; and, lastly, concurring with what you said, Japanese does seem to be suitability for beginners.

spurious

The Russian course is a two year course, like Japanese.
From the syllabus:
A minimum period of 180 hours over two years is envisaged for teaching the syllabus content.

I've never known a native Russian speaker who didn't get an A1 or A2 on the exam. Having learned it myself, once you get over the alphabet issue, it's not that difficult a language. The SEC are not expecting perfect Russian after two years. I know from speaking to one of the oral examiners that they are a bit harder on those who are obviously native speakers in the oral exam, which I suppose is understandable, if not strictly fair.

Mr Pseudonym

spurious wrote: »

The Russian course is a two year course, like Japanese.
From the syllabus:
A minimum period of 180 hours over two years is envisaged for teaching the syllabus content.

I've never known a native Russian speaker who didn't get an A1 or A2 on the exam. Having learned it myself, once you get over the alphabet issue, it's not that difficult a language. The SEC are not expecting perfect Russian after two years. I know from speaking to one of the oral examiners that they are a bit harder on those who are obviously native speakers in the oral exam, which I suppose is understandable, if not strictly fair.

Thank you for clarifying that. I went to an international school and was told by a Maldovan with a Russian parent that LC Russian was very tough. I just had a look at a paper, and there is little evidence to suggest it is. I was also told by multiple fluent Arabic speakers that Arabic is similarly testing. Perhaps that is also incorrect.


^^Shameless attempt to absolve myself!!


Someone once told me that the only reason for Arabic being a subject is because of a school in Tripoli which enters students for the LC.

Quoting from the syllabus:

"The current syllabus is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country."

"It is envisaged that, in the future, a number of schools in Ireland will teach Arabic ab initio up to the Higher level of the Leaving Certificate, and not necessarily only to first language Arabic speakers."

They seem not to have a clue!

spurious

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

They seem not to have a clue!

You would really wonder sometimes when you see what they come up with.