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Buying a Pub

  • 24-02-2014 11:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭


    Could anyone point me towards an informative description of the process of buying a pub and all the requirements that would normally be associated with such a purchase i.e. tax clearance, transfer of licence, fire safety certificate and current employees.


Comments

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    If EastEnders had taught us anything, it's that the whole process can be done in minutes, usually by changing the brass plaque above the door.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Frynge


    I doubt a little ironmongery would be sufficient to keep everybody happy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    You'll likely need to form a company and get involved with the various aspects of licensing. I'm not sure if it works in this way here but can't you rent one from a brewery? Might be the way to go if you've no experience.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Frynge wrote: »
    I doubt a little ironmongery would be sufficient to keep everybody happy.
    Seriously though, the Revenue have a lot of info on the process. Check the status of the existing licence, then check the process for applying here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Bepolite wrote: »
    You'll likely need to form a company and get involved with the various aspects of licensing. I'm not sure if it works in this way here but can't you rent one from a brewery? Might be the way to go if you've no experience.

    You're thinking of the situation in the UK, the only breweries that I know that have "tied" pubs are some of the micro (or former micro) brewers - Galway Bay Brewing Company (with 3 pubs in Galway and 5 in Dublin), Carlow Brewing Company with a pub in Kilkenny and the Franciscan Well in Cork.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,375 ✭✭✭Redsoxfan


    Robbo wrote: »
    Seriously though, the Revenue have a lot of info on the process. Check the status of the existing licence, then check the process for applying here.

    Anyone know the background to this:

    Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Bog Premises


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    That's so odd but probably a typical piece of Irish legislation to solve a local problem that's never gone away. From the 1946 Act,
    the expression “bog premises” means all the buildings for the time being erected in a bog irrespective of the purpose for which such premises are used;

    the expression “licensed bog premises” means premises in a bog in respect of which a licence for the sale of intoxicating liquor granted or renewed by virtue of this Act is for the time being subsisting, whether such premises are the whole or a part only of the bog premises in such bog;

    the expression “the Minister” means the Minister for Industry and Commerce;

    the expression “on-licence” means a licence for the sale of intoxicating liquor for consumption either on or off the premises.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1946/en/act/pub/0033/print.html

    I'd love to know how many of these are in existence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 Stroke My Trout


    A well known publican family have licenses attached to their houses; they serve drink once a yr to keep the licence(s) valid. This is in the Greystones area, and was confirmed to me a few years ago by somebody. Is this a 'bog' licence?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    A well known publican family have licenses attached to their houses; they serve drink once a yr to keep the licence(s) valid. This is in the Greystones area, and was confirmed to me a few years ago by somebody. Is this a 'bog' licence?

    I would very much doubt that story. It would cause all manner of problems to have your private home or a building on your home licensed. I doubt if Greystones is a bog so no it's not a bog licence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,258 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Redsoxfan wrote: »
    Anyone know the background to this:

    Publican's Licence (Ordinary) - Bog Premises

    I'd presume it's intended for one off outdoor fairs, harvests, marts, festivals etc to allow them to legally sell drink from temporary premises.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,375 ✭✭✭Redsoxfan


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1946/en/act/pub/0033/print.html

    I'd love to know how many of these are in existence.

    Yes, I read the Act and was none the wiser.

    I immediately thought of this story, but it seems that the 'Bog Hotel' didn't even have a 'Bog Licence'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Never heard of a bog licence in my 50 years in Mayo. We have a lot of bog in Mayo.

    It may relate to the big bog areas in the midlands..

    However the intoxicating liquor licensing acts are a legal minefield. They go back to 1833, are somwhat complicated, and are affected by numerous court decisions.

    go to a solicitor, Do not try to do it thru the internet

    Good luck


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Frynge


    I was more looking for a list of particulars required for the transfer of ownership when purchased.

    Note I'm not planning on buying a pub but was more wondering is there a list of things that would have to be included on the bill of sale of such a transaction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Frynge wrote: »
    I was more looking for a list of particulars required for the transfer of ownership when purchased.

    Note I'm not planning on buying a pub but was more wondering is there a list of things that would have to be included on the bill of sale of such a transaction.

    Signed in writing if over £10 if memory serves. :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Frynge wrote: »
    I was more looking for a list of particulars required for the transfer of ownership when purchased.

    Note I'm not planning on buying a pub but was more wondering is there a list of things that would have to be included on the bill of sale of such a transaction.
    If you're buying a currently active pub as a going concern, you're in fact engaging in two connected transactions:

    (a) purchase of the premises - basically like a regular conveyance but with added features, such as the need to address the transfer of the licence

    (b) purchase of a business - this can take a couple of different forms. Are you buying all the shares in a company which carries on the business? Or are you buying the assets, undertaking, stock-in-trade, goodwill, etc from the person, firm or company which carries on the business? What form the transaction takes will dictate what form the documentation takes, but there will be quite a lot of stuff that has to be addressed regardless of form. You will do a "due diligence" examining the business, the accounts, the tax status, etc. There will be a list of warranties and representations that the vendor makes to the purchase - this is often the subject of much tough negotiation. There will be a list of covenants - things the vendor agrees to do either before or after the sale, and the purchaser can sue him if he doesn't. There'll be negotiation of the purchase price (obviously) and of the arrangement for paying it.

    In the end of the day, you have quite a bulky sale agreement, plus formal transfer documents (usually quite short) for the land, the shares (if you are buying shares), assignments of contracts important to the business, etc.

    PS: In an actual real live transaction, you will of course have lawyers and accountants advising you from the outset - i.e. before you even make an offer for the pub - and they will tell you what needs to go into the documentation. You won't be relying on the likes of us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Frynge


    Obviously a solicitor would be required for such a transaction.

    But in a less obvious world is the fact that a solicitor is needed because a normal person just doesn't have the knowledge of everything required.

    As in is it possible to buy a pub without getting a solicitor involved by basing the requirements of the sale off of a similar sale made previously.

    I am fully aware that doing that would be considered bats8it crazy but more just wondering.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Frynge wrote: »
    Obviously a solicitor would be required for such a transaction.

    But in a less obvious world is the fact that a solicitor is needed because a normal person just doesn't have the knowledge of everything required.

    As in is it possible to buy a pub without getting a solicitor involved by basing the requirements of the sale off of a similar sale made previously.

    I am fully aware that doing that would be considered bats8it crazy but more just wondering.

    In theory if buying for yourself personally, financed by yourself

    In practice, not a very good idea. See Pergrinus post above which outlines some of the problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Purely on the basis of the conveyance it would be ill advised to engage in purchasing a property without the aid of a solicitor. The same goes for any purchase of real property. Land Law is a minefield (there's a pun there somewhere). You need to make sure the title is clear; that the 15th duke on Winbourne didn't will the front steps to his Son on the condition he engaged in a Crusade and that the council aren't planning on sticking a pylon there.

    In theory could you do this yourself? Yes. In theory rather than getting my kitchen put in I could have done wood-turning classes, carpentry classes and done it myself, I would have been a much richer (in skill) person for doing it, but I prefer to drink beer and watch the TV in the evenings safe in the knowledge that my cabinets aren't going to fall down and kill my cat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Frynge wrote: »
    As in is it possible to buy a pub without getting a solicitor involved by basing the requirements of the sale off of a similar sale made previously.

    I am fully aware that doing that would be considered bats8it crazy but more just wondering.
    It's possible in the sense of "not illegal". You can't get any other professional (or amateur) to do what the solicitor would normally do; that would be illegal. But it's not illegal to do it yourself.

    It might not be effective. Every transaction is different, and depending on how much the transaction whose documents you adapt differs from this transaction, the documents which worked last time might not work this time, so you could end up not getting a valid transfer of the premises, or the business.

    And, even it it's effective, it's not likely to be in your interests. The warranties and representations and covenants you want from the seller are the one's appropriate to this business carried on this pub at this time; it'll be the merest coincidence if they happen to the same as the ones that were considered appropriate to a different business carried on in different premises at a different time. It would be like trying to navigate from Cork to Dublin using instructions prepared for someone travelling from Madrid to Seville.


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