Gay teachers/right-wing groupings in the REPUBLIC of Ireland

Theequalizer67

2 questions for the forum.

1. What are the Asti/Tui/Teaching council doing about the position of gay/lesbian teachers?
Do they offer any support, in particular challenging legislation vis-a-vis certain schools (paid from State) employment policy??

2. What is the Asti/Tui/Teaching council position on external right-wing Catholic groups visiting schools for "talks" (or for that matter external left-wing Marxist groups!)??


This is the year 2014, right??

sitstill

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

2 questions for the forum.

1. What are the Asti/Tui/Teaching council doing about the position of gay/lesbian teachers?
Do they offer any support, in particular challenging legislation vis-a-vis certain schools (paid from State) employment policy??

2. What is the Asti/Tui/Teaching council position on external right-wing Catholic groups visiting schools for "talks" (or for that matter external left-wing Marxist groups!)??


This is the year 2014, right??

1. They (at least ASTI) have a LGBT group which apparently organises meet ups etc but they don't actually seem to do anything meaningful to challenge Section 37.

byhookorbycrook

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

2 questions for the forum.

1. What are the Asti/Tui/Teaching council doing about the position of gay/lesbian teachers?
Do they offer any support, in particular challenging legislation vis-a-vis certain schools (paid from State) employment policy??

2. What is the Asti/Tui/Teaching council position on external right-wing Catholic groups visiting schools for "talks" (or for that matter external left-wing Marxist groups!)??

Is it actually stated that a school shall not employ an LGBT teacher? In my experience , there doesn't seem to be an issue at primary.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Is it actually stated that a school shall not employ an LGBT teacher? In my experience , there doesn't seem to be an issue at primary.

Ahh but there's many's the slip between the cup and the lip... Hows the school to know that the teacher they are employing is of a certain orientation! I think it's what happens after the teacher is employed is the crux of the matter... whatever about primary, generally in secondary a teacher is thrown a few hours to start with so it's easy to dismiss (or simply get someone of a different persuasion in) when the contract/subbing renewal time comes up.. Even then, if a teacher gets their CID/permanency it's not that difficult to dickey the timetable to make their life very difficult. Maybe not get them to quit, but still it's a form of bullying.

spurious

All the teaching unions have LGBT sections which meet regularly with each other to discuss joint approaches to things like Section 37. They have been involved in a number of submissions regarding it.

DK man

I have worked in a number of schools with gay teachers and it was never an issue for anyone - 'they' were all very decent and good teachers and I never even remember anyone saying anything about their sexuality behind their backs

Some of the schools were religious and others were Vec

Armelodie - I think it's very common for young part time teachers to get the run around - I remember getting an 11 hr ept in a school I started in mid step and my first timetable was just ripped up to facilitate established staff members - I was in first class Monday and also last class on Friday and had plenty of sitting around time during the five days that I worked - the original was much different - I could go on... U don't need to be lgbt to get a rough ride in a school

Theequalizer67

Thanks for responses. Seems lame enough from unions.

Ok Any comment on religious right_wing groups access to schools?

seavill

I was asked my religion, marital status and sexual orientation by the secretary of a secondary school when I started a job there for my "file". Was a catholic school. I'm sure most of those questions are out of bounds to ask

Manach

Does the OP have any groups in mind or just trawling and hoping to spread anti-Catholicism in general?

byhookorbycrook

Manach wrote: »

Does the OP have any groups in mind or just trawling and hoping to spread anti-Catholicism in general?

Or a lazy journalist??

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Or a lazy journalist??

This was discussed here a month ago... upshot.. Theres a secret society of Satanic Catholics run by John Waters and his wife Panty Bliss from an off the books department office in Uganda..allegedly.. Itll come out in the new JC programme..

Seriously though OP..any reason youre asking, if you have evidence of such groups please share..

Theequalizer67

Manach wrote: »

Does the OP have any groups in mind or just trawling and hoping to spread anti-Catholicism in general?

You clearly didn't read my post.
I also mentioned Marxist left wing groups etc
Groups I have in mind are fundamentalist Christian groups, Jehovah groups , Islamic groups etc. allowed into schools
but I think in Ireland you and I both know what groups it is likely to be oh wise one.

Theequalizer67

Armelodie wrote: »

This was discussed here a month ago... upshot.. Theres a secret society of Satanic Catholics run by John Waters and his wife Panty Bliss from an off the books department office in Uganda..allegedly.. Itll come out in the new JC programme..

Seriously though OP..any reason youre asking, if you have evidence of such groups please share..

Do I need a reason to ask a question?
I have plenty of evidence and it has also been reported in media.
What I would like to know is :
how widespread this is across schools
why it is allowed in schools paid by State,
Level of parents knowledge
What unions position on this is

Theequalizer67

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Or a lazy journalist??

No I'm not.
So does that make your assumptions lazy??

spurious

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

No I'm not.
So does that make your assumptions lazy??

All your posts to date are about right wing groups, pro-life groups and groups representing gay teachers.

Have you any other questions?

Theequalizer67

spurious wrote: »

All your posts to date are about right wing groups, pro-life groups and groups representing gay teachers.

Have you any other questions?

What do you find objectionable in the posts?


Have you any answers ?

Rachiee

While schools don't seem to use section 37 to dismiss the fact that its still on the books at all is offensive and stressful for lgbt teachers as they haven't the safety net there. So many choose not to come out

spurious

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

What do you find objectionable in the posts?


Have you any answers ?

People here, mainly teachers, are answering your questions honestly.
You seem to be picking and choosing what you see, such as describing the union response to Section 37 as 'lame' when I posted that there was quite an active joint union group working on it.
Some would say perhaps you have another agenda. Are you a teacher?

evolving_doors

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Do I need a reason to ask a question?
I have plenty of evidence and it has also been reported in media.
What I would like to know is :
how widespread this is across schools
why it is allowed in schools paid by State,
Level of parents knowledge
What unions position on this is

Evidence....great....could you post some links ? Thanks.

Theequalizer67

spurious wrote: »

People here, mainly teachers, are answering your questions honestly.
You seem to be picking and choosing what you see, such as describing the union response to Section 37 as 'lame' when I posted that there was quite an active joint union group working on it.
Some would say perhaps you have another agenda. Are you a teacher?

Yes I would consider the union response like a lot of things very lame - this is a civil rights issue. I don't see what exactly is being picked and chosen ?

You asked had I any other questions ie shut down debate. Why is that?
Again I am accused of having an agenda - why? Because I asked a question on a forum!
I have already answered latter question.

My agenda is clear - seeking answers to why some teachers do not have the same employment rights in this state and why schools in this state allow religious / Marxist/ groups in schools.

Does that make you uncomfortable?

Theequalizer67

Armelodie wrote: »

Evidence....great....could you post some links ? Thanks.

This isn't a court of law.
I asked if there are many others with similar experience.

If you don't wish to address the initial question, fine.

So far I am getting hostility for asking questions , having an agenda, produce evidence , etc
Hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

spurious

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

My agenda is clear - seeking answers to why some teachers do not have the same employment rights in this state and why schools in this state allow religious / Marxist/ groups in schools.

Does that make you uncomfortable?

Not in the slightest. I was involved in the LGBT joint union grouping and could answer lots of questions on it, but I don't particularly like how you are responding to other posters. It's not how we do things here.

Theequalizer67

spurious wrote: »

Not in the slightest. I was involved in the LGBT joint union grouping and could answer lots of questions on it, but I don't particularly like how you are responding to other posters. It's not how we do things here.

That is genuinely great work.

I make no apologies - Did you like how people responded to my post ?

Do you think on reflection asking " if I had any other questions ", accused of being a lazy hack , and having an agenda is the way to do things around here ????

evolving_doors

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Do I need a reason to ask a question?
I have plenty of evidence and it has also been reported in media.
What I would like to know is :
how widespread this is across schools
why it is allowed in schools paid by State,
Level of parents knowledge
What unions position on this is

You don't need a reason to ask a question...although its customery to contribute to the topic by posting a link if you say there is evidence in the media....i can understand if you have evidence that may be personal or whatever.. Just don't feel like redoing the research you have all ready done..

Why is it allowed in schools paid by the state?
Its all about maintaining the ethos... I'll keep banging on about it but the ethos will win almost any court case where a teacher goes against the ethos! Now I'm not saying this is right but just the way it is...
Whether or not the state pays over money is extraneous... Unfortunately.

Also just to let you know we regularly get posters who throw out an opening statement...finish the sentence with "discuss" and never even contribute to the discussion.

Theequalizer67

Armelodie wrote: »

You don't need a reason to ask a question...although its customery to contribute to the topic by posting a link if you say there is evidence in the media....i can understand if you have evidence that may be personal or whatever.. Just don't feel like redoing the research you have all ready done..

Why is it allowed in schools paid by the state?
Its all about maintaining the ethos... I'll keep banging on about it but the ethos will win almost any court case where a teacher goes against the ethos! Now I'm not saying this is right but just the way it is... For example that girl who had an child in Tipperary and wished to return to school but she was refused...pure and simple...she went against the ethos...never mind the principal's tax issues!
Whether or not the state pays over money is extraneous... Unfortunately.

Also just to let you know we regularly get posters who throw out an opening statement...finish the sentence with "discuss" and never even contribute to the discussion.

Thank you for a thorough response.
There has been recent media evidence of groups visiting schools.
Who decides the ethos - should this not be under the remit the department of Ed instead of a BOM in non-religious schools?
That school in question was both private and religious from memory which is slightly different.

Do we continue to accept it because it is the way it is. Discuss!!
Do the unions even care?

seavill

I would imagine its the patron of the schools that decide the ethos not the BOM

evolving_doors

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Thank you for a thorough response.
There has been recent media evidence of groups visiting schools.
Who decides the ethos - should this not be under the remit the department of Ed instead of a BOM in non-religious schools?
That school in question was both private and religious from memory which is slightly different.

Do we continue to accept it because it is the way it is. Discuss!!
Do the unions even care?

Just wondering....what are these groups? Opus Dei, Iona, ...what is the media saying?......

Non religious schools also have an ethos..I'm open to correction here!
But the state or dept. of education only provides 'for' education (picks up the tab)...the schools 'provide' the education...this has been the way since 1850's...although there's been mutterings since the Louise O' Keefe ruling in Europe!

Where does the ethos come from? That would be an ecumenical matter ...but seriously though the ethos is like a mission statement created a long long time ago and embodied by some Latin phrase (if its a good school )

As regards that school being private... The only private schools are ones run solely for profit..e.g. The Institute..independent colleges etc..grind schools etc. What happened in Tipperary can happen in any school (depending on the ethos !) ...the fact that it was a fee charging school is moot and not as you say 'slightly different'.

whiteandlight

References to a specific school relating to an off topic issue (unrelated to LGBT) removed.

All posters be warned, the topic of LGBT discrimination in schools is fairly controversial and references to specific teachers/schools without evidence to back up the statements will be removed.

Edit: As always do not discuss Mod instructions on thread

Ambersky

Lots of information on LGBT teachers and students in Irish schools on the GLEN website. Glen have worked in conjunction with the teaching unions for a number of years.
http://www.glen.ie/page.aspx?contentid=33&name=education

SpaceTime

There's a big difference between schools being tolerant of gay teachers and gay teachers being able to enjoy the same legal protection from discrimination that gay people have in every other employment.

In 2014 nobody should be in fear of losing their livelihood or feel that they're only their at the whim of a tolerant boss.

The same risk applies to single parents or divorced / separated teachers or teachers who might have particular privately held religious (eg artists or even non practicing catholics) or political views.

They're state employees and should have the same rights as every other employee in the country.

The vast majority of schools are probably great employers and very tolerant but the law is still ridiculous and places a lot of people in a very awkward position where they have to hide aspects of their lives. That's totally unhealthy and unacceptable.

endakenny

Why are the teachers' unions not taking a legal challenge against Section 37 under the European Convention of Human Rights?

SpaceTime

endakenny wrote: »

Why are the teachers' unions not taking a legal challenge against Section 37 under the European Court of Human Rights?

That's a good question. Their unions really should do that. It's a major issue for a lot of teachers who aren't in 'traditional' family units. It's actually impacting more people than gay teachers, it's also hitting people who might be seen as in situations that are not in keeping with the school's ethos.

RealJohn

Is a school's ethos not important though? If a teacher in a Gaelscoil/Gaelcholáiste is fluent in the language but openly tells the students that he/she thinks that the language is dead and a waste of time and got sacked for that, would people be complaining as much?

evolving_doors

SpaceTime wrote: »

[....]

They're state employees and should have the same rights as every other employee in the country[...]

Therein lies the problem... Teachers are employed by the school first and foremost..and not the state. Its probably analogous to joining the priesthood but wanting to have a family after. Not that it makes it right, but to me it's like people I know who became australian citizens... Had to swear alegence to the Queen...

Godge

seavill wrote: »

I was asked my religion, marital status and sexual orientation by the secretary of a secondary school when I started a job there for my "file". Was a catholic school. I'm sure most of those questions are out of bounds to ask

Sexual orientation is a strange one to be asked.

Religion for "last rites" and marital status for next of kin would be common employer questions.

In order to ensure questions aren't considered discriminatory, they could be put better, "do you have a next-of-kin", "have you any personal beliefs we need to know about in case of an accident" etc. But while a large employer might be expected to get that right, the secretary in a school is a bit different.