Galway Airport re-opening a non-flyer

Laviski

in the new this week

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/2322-airport-re-opening-a-non-flyer

The re-opening of Galway Airport with State-subsidised flights is a non-flyer, Government sources have insisted.

It was reported yesterday that European rule changes on competition would clear the runaway for the Carnmore facility to take-off again with flights to Dublin and London.

But claims that subsidised commercial flights would return to Galway have been rubbished by sources close to Transport Minister Leo Varadkar.

at best it will be kept for GA.
Possibility turned into another ida park if there is demand there, but a lot of vacant warehouses as it is and the pharma facility in oranmore hasn't being touch yet.

GekkePrutser

Laviski wrote: »

at best it will be kept for GA.
Possibility turned into another ida park if there is demand there, but a lot of vacant warehouses as it is and the pharma facility in oranmore hasn't being touch yet.

I just don't get that IDA park thing. Half of Deerpark, just nearby, is empty. Some of the brand-new buildings in Ballybrit have never had a tenant. Crowne plaza is a big hole in the ground (with some pillars sticking out). And yes indeed the old airport which was torn down to make a pharmaceutical complex, still a bog 38 years later. :rolleyes:

Really, who needs another industrial estate? It's not as if the lack of office/warehouse buildings or development sites is holding the city back at the moment.

At least the airport provides something different, and with the limited debts it now has it could run viably as a GA airport. Just to put it into perspective, that 1.1 million is only about the cost of one of those two airplanes that were doing skydiving there every weekend last summer.

folbotcar

GekkePrutser wrote: »

At least the airport provides something different, and with the limited debts it now has it could run viably as a GA airport. Just to put it into perspective, that 1.1 million is only about the cost of one of those two airplanes that were doing skydiving there every weekend last summer.

Not quite but you could probably get two of that type brand new out of the box for 1.1m. Second hand a bit less. But otherwise you're dead right. It isn't huge money in aviation terms. The skydive operation alone can generate income for the owners while they make up their minds about their fantasy industrial park. Right now it's a money pit. I wonder what the electricity, maintenance and security bill alone comes to. But they'll need to make up their minds fast. The skydivers will move out if they get messed about. They don't just operate at weekends either. They operate seven days a week. The councils need them more than they need the airport. On top of that you can generate more income from visiting aircraft, selling fuel and landing fees. It's no longer viable as a commercial airport but it is viable as a small GA field.

Storm 10

I find it unreal that the City Council,County Council,Chamber of Commerce and the business community in Galway are not able to come together and sort something out to get the Airport open again, I did not like the snotty remarks in the paper about Galway Airport by Leo Varadkar "Its gone forget it" "You dont need an Airport in Galway now you have a motorway and trains" , Galway the third biggest City in the Country and our Airport closes its just mind blown.

Waterford and Sligo are still open and Varadkar recently granted Waterford a grant of over 400,000k to extend the runway which still wont be as long as Galway, they also have motorway access and trains to Dublin just like Galway so what is wrong here its because we have Knock on our doorstep and a Taoiseach from Mayo that is the real reason nothing else. What I am really mad at is how our so called Councils just closed it down with out really going for the private flyers who would flock here given that they boycotted Galway when it was open due to being charged just to fly by the City. Surely if the boom times are coming back could they not get Aer Lingus or Flybe to operate some kind of service from Galway in the future, also speaking to a friend in the Air Corps its a big loss to them and the Coastguard for fuel, Air Traffic Control, Weather assistance and direction beacons etc when coming into UCHG in poor weather. if only for the rescue services it should remain open. only a few years ago Galway celebrated two million passengers flying from the Airport and around 40,000 passengers went through in August 2007. The closeure of Galway Airport is a crazy decision and one that the City will regret into the future.

Rant Over :mad::mad::mad:

notharrypotter

Waterford and Sligo are still open

Both are bases for the SAR Helicopters so have a reason to remain open.

the private flyers who would flock here given that they boycotted Galway when it was open due to being charged just to fly by the City

So an attempt by Galway Airport INC. to charge the users for a service just shows how committed the GA community was to paying.

Just how much do you reckon the skydive operation was actually paying to the airport?

GA8 Airvan Wikipedia weighs 2 tonnes

Galway Airport website landing charges €5 per tonne?

Most small aircraft are less than 1.5 tonnes so will not pay a whole lot.

At the end of the day the commercial justification is gone.

get Aer Lingus or Flybe to operate some kind of service from Galway

The chances of a future commercial operation are very limited.

Equally changes at an EU level now prohibit the Government (includes local Councils) from subsidising future operations.

New State Aid Rules for a Competitive Aviation Industry.

keano89

Our TDs in Galway didn't fight hard enough over the years, look at Knock and Shannon Galway's need is as great as theirs if not greater.

If Shannon airport is meant to be the airport that serves Galway, there should be a rail line direct to the airport, this was suggested in the NSS (2002).

GekkePrutser

notharrypotter wrote: »

So an attempt by Galway Airport INC. to charge the users for a service just shows how committed the GA community was to paying.

That zone transit charge was something that's not normally charged, of course there was resistance to it. It was on top of all the other charges. The general practice is that it's free to fly around wherever you want to go (the vicinity of the biggest airports excepted of course). When you come down, that's when you start paying and that's well accepted. It'd be like Galway City charging visitors a fee for just walking around.

Landing charges aren't the only thing an airport makes money on. Parking charges, fuel (even a small plane uses 20-30 litres per hour and Avgas is almost 3 euro per litre). The skydive club was also renting a big hanger, there's much more money changing hands than just landing charges.

If other small airports like Abbeyshrule can be viable with just General Aviation, so can Galway, which has better facilities. Galway's runway is twice as long. Even last year it saw use for private jets, aerial photography (bell geospace) and medical flights. Galway would also be a good spot for GA pilots coming over for a weekend holiday or as a base to continue on to Connemara.

folbotcar

Certain amount of clarification needed here:

notharrypotter wrote: »

Both are bases for the SAR Helicopters so have a reason to remain open.

Both Air Corps Air Ambulance and SAR helicopters used Galway for refuelling and general/weather related stopovers. UCHG is the main destination for both as anyone who lives in Galway well knows. The helipad is not always the best place to stop over.

So an attempt by Galway Airport INC. to charge the users for a service just shows how committed the GA community was to paying.

Just how much do you reckon the skydive operation was actually paying to the airport?

GA8 Airvan Wikipedia weighs 2 tonnes

Galway Airport website landing charges €5 per tonne?

Most small aircraft are less than 1.5 tonnes so will not pay a whole lot.

At the end of the day the commercial justification is gone.

The GA community is well used to paying fees. The problem was Galway Airport was that they demanded a fee if you simply flew through their airspace whether you landed or not. No other airport here or abroad tried that stunt. Add that to the most expensive fuel in the country and expensive landing and parking charges along with a generally unfriendly attitude to GA and people voted with their wings and stayed away. They even billed an unfortunate pilot who had to divert to Galway because of bad weather.

This was deliberate on the part of the then management who had big airport notions about themselves. The management paid themselves big salaries too, after all the taxpayers were keeping them in gravy. I should add that this didn't apply to the manager who took over last year. He didn't receive a salary and did his best to pick up the pieces. But it was too late.

The landing fee you quoted is inaccurate. The minimum is €20 for the smallest aircraft. That's before parking.

The skydive operator is renting hangar space. That will be several thousand a month at least. The last quoted figure for a complete hanger that I recall was €75k a year. Doubt if they are paying that much but it won't be cheap. Another aircraft is based there too also paying several thousand a year for hangarage. Both would have bought fuel from the airport. The skydive operation was operating seven days a week with up to ten or twelve flights a day sometimes. They would have bought a lot of fuel. In fact the only thing keeping the airport open last year was the skydive operations and a few private jets along with the visits from the Air Corps and Coast Guard. But mainly the Skydiving. When they stopped for the winter the money dried up. In fact the skydive operation is the equivalent of basing an SAR/Air Ambulance aircraft there in terms of generating income.

With all the debts gone and minimum overheads. There is no reason the airport can't generate revenue from the skydiving and visitors.[/QUOTE]

The chances of a future commercial operation are very limited.

Equally changes at an EU level now prohibit the Government (includes local Councils) from subsidising future operations.

New State Aid Rules for a Competitive Aviation Industry.

You are right about that. Future commercial operations are limited subsidised or not. But the same is true of the other regional airports. All of which are still open, even Sligo which has no airline flights now. Galway's problem was poor management. That's what caused it's downfall as a commercial airport. But there's absolutely no reason it cannot continue just like Sligo.

I would be surprised indeed if the airport does not open again in some form in the next couple of months. In fact Skydive Ireland is still there and is advertising jumping from Galway. I would imagine they know something we don't?

notharrypotter

If other small airports like Abbeyshrule can be viable with just General Aviation

Abbeyshrule Wikipedia page

Runway is 620 M of Bituminous.

Galway Wikipedia

Runway is 1289 M of Asphalt

Galway is simply over engineered for a "small" General Aviation" field.

That zone transit charge was something that's not normally charged

They had an asset (Galway Airspace) which they wanted to use.

Anyone who did not wish to pay had the option of flying around it.


Once the pavement starts to break up who is going to pay for maintenance?

The General Aviation community?

as a base to continue on to Connemara.

Why not fly straight to Minnea?

Storm 10

Just look at the stats here on this link about Galway Airport it was booming, another thing I meant to mention was the takeover of Aer Arann by Eddie Stobart, he owns Southend Airport and he stopped Aer Arann flying the Galway to London Luton route and switched them to Southend Airport this was an Airport that people flying from Galway did not want to fly to so they voted with their feet and that route fell apart depite Aer Arann having an 80% seat occupancy from Galway to London Luton.

Check out the stats for the Airport on this link.

http://www.galwayairport.com/about/Media_Archive/23/A_New_High_for_Galway_Airport_32

Laviski

i think the site should be used a mulitfunction purpose
cater for GA but also perhaps converting the land into a race track. Not sure on the rules would allow such a combination not too mention the minority that would complain and object about it.

defo shouldn't be turned into a ida park there isnt' demand in the short-medium term "Going Forward" ;-)
maybe in 30 years if there lucky.

notharrypotter

. In fact Skydive Ireland is still there and is advertising jumping from Galway

AERODROME IS CLOSED EXCEPT FOR BASED CLUB AIRCRAFT

NOTAM A0048/14
interesting are they members of the local flying club?

commercial operation

Just look at the stats here on this link about Galway Airport it was booming

Look at the Wikipedia page.

Numbers peaked in 2007 and went down hill from there.

he stopped Aer Arann flying the Galway to London

When the PSO route went the critical mass went too.

Aer Arann having an 80% seat occupancy from Galway to London Luton.

The costs for the stand alone London route simply did not make economic sense and the business closed.

Sligo which has no airline flights now

Sligo has the SAR helicopter base.

Both Air Corps Air Ambulance and SAR helicopters used Galway for refuelling

You are not going to run a successful business basing on occasional uplift of fuel.

They did not take fuel in Galway every single time they dropped a casualty in the Hospital.

The last quoted figure for a complete hanger that I recall was €75k a year.

Maybe when Aer Arran had a maintenance base. The skydivers would at best be paying a fraction of that figure.

In fact the skydive operation is the equivalent of basing an SAR/Air Ambulance aircraft there in terms of generating income.

Equally I am open to correction but hasn't the skydive operation being at several different sites (Nenagh/Birr) already so they have no loyalty.

Aerohead

Equally I am open to correction but hasn't the skydive operation being at several different sites (Nenagh/Birr) already so they have no loyalty

Skydive Ireland operate from Offaly, Galway and Waterford, they will be back in Galway in the Spring for the season, they along with Galway Flying Club will be the sole licensed aircraft operating from the Airport until please God someone in this City gets their act together and opens the Airport.

http://www.skydiveireland.ie/

CatFromHue

According to AA Route Planner it's
86Km from Eyre Square to Knock Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 12 min
83Km from Eyre Square to Shannon Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 7 min
215Km from Eyre Square to Dublin Airport with a travelling time of 2 hr 20 min

So within a two and a half hour radius there's 3 airports available.

I don't see the need for a 4th.

Storm 10

CatFromHue wrote: »

According to AA Route Planner it's
86Km from Eyre Square to Knock Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 12 min
83Km from Eyre Square to Shannon Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 7 min
215Km from Eyre Square to Dublin Airport with a travelling time of 2 hr 20 min

So within a two and a half hour radius there's 3 airports available.

I don't see the need for a 4th.

strange that considering its been in existance since the 1960s, we are not looking for a new airport, it worked very well when it was open and I for one would prefer to fly from Galway rather than travelling to other airports

CatFromHue

CatFromHue wrote: »

According to AA Route Planner it's
86Km from Eyre Square to Knock Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 12 min
83Km from Eyre Square to Shannon Airport with a travelling time of 1 hr 7 min
215Km from Eyre Square to Dublin Airport with a travelling time of 2 hr 20 min

So within a two and a half hour radius there's 3 airports available.

I don't see the need for a 4th.

Note, once the M17/18 Tuam to Gort road is built both Knock & Shannon will be around 1 hour and under 50 mins respectively, away from Galway.

Simply put, it was badly managed and inefficiently run with too little demand for the (few) services it offered.

The reason there wasn't much of a fight by many people to keep it is it made no sense to keep it.

As for what will eventually become of it, it will fit nicely on to the East side of the future residential area of Ardaun allowing for extremely well connected (5 mins away from motorway to North, South & East of the country) future developments on that side of the city whether they be industrial or residential

Chicken1

Simply put, it was badly managed and inefficiently run with too little demand for the (few) services it offered.

Lets see Galway Airport to: Dublin, Cork, Belfast, London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Lorient and Malaga via Waterford.

Nothing wrong with those (few) services, if we had London and Manchester back which were very well supported they would keep the place open along with the GA family

BeardySi

Galway as it currently stands is not viable for commercial operations, simple as that. The runway is too small and there's no options for expansion. A decision was made not to move the airport to a more commercially suitable site in the interest of protecting certain business interests - ultimately this doomed the airport's viability.

As a GA airport the site has great potential (particularly as the hare-brained idea of charging for flying near it is done away with!) and hopefully this will be pursued...

Chicken1 wrote: »

Lets see Galway Airport to: Dublin, Cork, Belfast, London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Lorient and Malaga via Waterford.

And if they had been profitable don't you think they would have continued?

BeardySi

sry, double post...

folbotcar

Again a need to clarify a few things:

notharrypotter wrote: »

Abbeyshrule Wikipedia page

Runway is 620 M of Bituminous.

Galway Wikipedia

Runway is 1289 M of Asphalt

Galway is simply over engineered for a "small" General Aviation" field.

Once the pavement starts to break up who is going to pay for maintenance?

The General Aviation community?

The IAA limit for a private airfield is 800 metres. Therefore the whole runway will not be required. You don't even need to use the runway. A grass strip can be rolled out beside the hard runway.

As for the pavement well some WW2 runways are still in use all over Europe. I guess they over engineered them too. Besides light aircraft are precisely that: light! There won't be fully loaded 747s taking off every day. The asphalt will survive a few years yet.

Someone mentioned the race track option. That is not an option as it would certainly damage the runway not to mention maddening the local residents.

They had an asset (Galway Airspace) which they wanted to use.

Anyone who did not wish to pay had the option of flying around it.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend the practice but you are on you own there. The option to fly around the airspace was not always there. Apart from that it was ridiculous and unheard of not to mention against all good aviation practice in that it discouraged pilots from calling when in the vicinity even if they were remaining clear. It's main intent as everyone knew was to make money off the helicopter traffic during race week. But it was a sledgehammer to crack a nut with unintended consequence of discouraging people from visiting Galway.

Why not fly straight to Minnea?

They are very restrictive in who they let fly in there now since the fatal Caravan accident in 2007. In fact if anything they are even more unfriendly than Galway was. Not only that they are miles out of town.

notharrypotter wrote: »

NOTAM A0048/14
interesting are they members of the local flying club?

commercial operation

In my opinion that NOTAM is poorly worded but in practice once the season ended the aircraft were tucked away in the hangar with no further flying needed. You have to assume moves have been made in the background for them to be become operational this spring as Aerohead has suggested.

Sligo has the SAR helicopter base.
You are not going to run a successful business basing on occasional uplift of fuel.

They did not take fuel in Galway every single time they dropped a casualty in the Hospital..

You would be surprised how lucrative the uplift of fuel can be. But as I said it's not just the helicopters. Skydive Ireland uplifted fuel every day they flew. As did the club, as did the visitors.

Maybe when Aer Arran had a maintenance base. The skydivers would at best be paying a fraction of that figure.
Equally I am open to correction but hasn't the skydive operation being at several different sites (Nenagh/Birr) already so they have no loyalty.

Clearly they would be paying less but obviously it's still in multiples of thousands as there are overheads to pay even when the hangar is empty. Arguably 75k was too much.

As for Skydive Ireland. It's not a question of loyalty, Erinagh in Nenagh had well documented planning problems and certain local individuals orchestrated a nasty campaign against the airfield due to a feud over land the owner bought. So very Irish! They were caught up in that through no fault of their own and moved on to Birr. Erinagh subsequently closed. It's worth nothing that another skydive operator in Kilkenny had to move to Abbeyshrule again for planning reasons.

Birr on the other hand suffers from waterlogging and is very short. It's not ideal. From any point of view Galway is the best option. A hard runway, near a city, close to motorways. Which would you pick?

If you want to bring up the question of loyalty. What of Aer Arann? Once it moved it's maintenance base out that was the real end for Galway as a viable airport.

Now it is potentially a very viable civil airfield, with low overheads and an attractive location. There is hangarage available for a maintenance organisation, room for a flying school. It has skydiving. It could have scenic flying or charters or be used as a base for survey flights.

All it would take is a bit of farsightedness on the part of the owners.

Time will tell.

MadYaker

Dublin and Shannon are both 2 hours away by motorway. Ireland is tiny. There is no need for an airport in Galway.

Laviski

MadYaker wrote: »

Dublin and Shannon are both 2 hours away by motorway. Ireland is tiny. There is no need for an airport in Galway.

It will never be an airport for commercial flights again.

But as being said can be a viable civil airfield for light aircraft. Would better than an empty ida site.

folbotcar

Laviski wrote: »

It will never be an airport for commercial flights again.

But as being said can be a viable civil airfield for light aircraft. Would better than another empty ex airfield ida site.

Exactly, well almost. I made some slight changes to your remarks. The way things are going Galway could be unique in the country in having not one but two closed airports within a couple of miles of each other. Another first for Galway! Or is it another own goal?

Storm 10

folbotcar wrote: »

Exactly, well almost. I made some slight changes to your remarks. The way things are going Galway could be unique in the country in having not one but two closed airports within a couple of miles of each other. Another first for Galway! Or is it another own goal?

Where is the 2nd closed Airport ????

folbotcar

The original Oranmore airfield, now a mooted IDA pharma complex with a road to nowhere, car parks with no cars, some ponds and a few faded signs extolling it's virtues as a place to set up your business. It's sits exactly on the field the RAF chose back in 1918 as the most suitable place for an airfield and later selected as the best place for an airport with a jet length runway. It's on the N18 south of the motorway just beside the army firing range.

bonzodog2

Storm 10 wrote: »

Where is the 2nd closed Airport ????

Oranmore airfield is mentioned in the film you mentioned recently, The Mackintosh Man. I guess you didn't watch it recently !

http://www.forgottenairfields.com/ireland/west/oranmore-s303.html

Storm 10

bonzodog2 wrote: »

Oranmore airfield is mentioned in the film you mentioned recently, The Mackintosh Man. I guess you didn't watch it recently !

http://www.forgottenairfields.com/ireland/west/oranmore-s303.html

Have not seen the film for years, great film, Oranmore was a lost opportunity for Galway it would be some Airport today if it had gone ahead.

folbotcar

I remember that film. In one scene Paul Newman calls a girl in London or somewhere to tell her where he has ended up. Roundstone I think. She mentions the airfield at Oranmore and says she'll charter a plane and fly in. I marvelled at her local knowledge because at the time I didn't even know about it. In the background I noticed Cessna 150 EI-ATH which I had flown a few times in Dublin airport when I was learning to fly. I think it belonged to the Galway Flying Club at the time of the movie.

We should bring this to the Galway movie thread!