2010 BMW F10 major problem and expense - any advice please

Humblepie

Hi All,

Would like to hear folks opinions and options if any, with regard to the following:

A BMW 520D F10 bought in Mar 2013 privately with 72k miles, std 2 yr warranty was finished.
Drove OK for first 6 months, never ever abused, maintained and serviced at regular intervals.
Turbo blew in October 2013. Cost to replace Turbo etc approx €1,700 (all genuine parts). A month later Crankshaft broke - new crankshaft / new oil pump / new conrods / new gear wheels / new head gasket set and all the additional parts that go with this / significant labour. Bill of €5,500
Few weeks later, max 1000 miles done - car sits down again, told problem is in the 'bottom of the engine'. (I assume Crankshaft gone again?) but it has not been opened up and examined yet.
Car is with a reputable dealer now who is trying to wash his hands of it.
I had heard if 2 or more BMW replaced 'genuine' parts were damaged again, BMW would replace the engine. Is this true or a nonsense?
Interested to hear if anyone has had a similar experience and outcome / advised options ?


Thanks.
H

jimgoose

To be honest it sounds like the wrong oil is being used in it??

Humblepie

Hi, cheers. To confirm, there was only correct oil put in.
Although, prior to the turbo blowing, a oil warning light had come on and oil was topped up at this time. Shortly after, the turbo blew and was told the turbo was burning the oil. Turbo replaced.

colm_mcm

I'm guessing the work wasn't done by BMW dealer?

Humblepie

The work wasnt done by a dealer but by someone who has worked on BMWs for a long time. All genuine parts used.
Anyway, I suppose the question is - should BMW have to replace engine if at least two of the parts failed again? OR due to fact it wasnt a dealer that fitted them, they wont honour this?
Trying to establish if there is any way out of this dark hole?!
Thx

Gumbo

Humblepie wrote: »

The work wasnt done by a dealer but by someone who has worked on BMWs for a long time. All genuine parts used.
Anyway, I suppose the question is - should BMW have to replace engine if at least two of the parts failed again? OR due to fact it wasnt a dealer that fitted them, they wont honour this?
Trying to establish if there is any way out of this dark hole?!
Thx

Do you have paper records of the parts bought?

This is why i always say "It doesnt matter if tom next door does your service work, keep every receipt for the parts and mark your service book yourself"

blingrhino

Previously to your purchase was the servicing done by bmw?
most likely was so that should stand to you.
Contact bmw direct and they might do a percentage goodwill gesture.
if the mileage is correct a turbo /crankshaft problems should not be an issue.

Humblepie

kceire wrote: »

Do you have paper records of the parts bought?

This is why i always say "It doesnt matter if tom next door does your service work, keep every receipt for the parts and mark your service book yourself"

I dont personally, but assume I assume the mechanic who replaced them has the paper records.

Gumbo

Humblepie wrote: »

I dont personally, but assume I assume the mechanic who replaced them has the paper records.

Do you have the receipt that the mechanic charged you for the work?
Did he fill in and stamp the service book

If you answered yes to the above, then BMW may consider a goodwill gesture for you.

ive gotten goodwill 3 times over the years and not all cars had full BMW service history and in fact one had no BMW stamps in it, but traceable SH.

mathepac

Sorry to hear of all the hassle OP.

Did anyone give you a reason for the turbo blowing?

A common reason is the turbo oil-pipe blocks (I think the pipe is now a service item). The turbo oil-pipe cab block if the wrong oil is used. I wouldn't dismiss incorrect lubrication as a source of your problems just yet.

Humblepie

kceire wrote: »

Do you have the receipt that the mechanic charged you for the work?
Did he fill in and stamp the service book

If you answered yes to the above, then BMW may consider a goodwill gesture for you.

ive gotten goodwill 3 times over the years and not all cars had full BMW service history and in fact one had no BMW stamps in it, but traceable SH.

kceire, hi.
We have all receipts / stamps etc. I am aware BMW will do a goodwill gesture but I am assuming this is a token gesture and will knock 20% off their price.
Id be interested to know what sort of gestures you received?

bazz26

From experience the best way to get goodwill from a manufacturer is through one of their dealers. A goodwill case from one of their dealers carries more weight than from an individual owner. Also for a dealer to lodge a goodwill case they will need to diagnose the problem first, they will not take another garage's word for it and neither will the manufacturer. Getting work done by an independent garage makes things more complicated though.

Gumbo

Humblepie wrote: »

kceire, hi.
We have all receipts / stamps etc. I am aware BMW will do a goodwill gesture but I am assuming this is a token gesture and will knock 20% off their price.
Id be interested to know what sort of gestures you received?

• 100% once,
• parts free and i paid a discounted labour charge twice.

Humblepie

mathepac wrote: »

Sorry to hear of all the hassle OP.

Did anyone give you a reason for the turbo blowing?

A common reason is the turbo oil-pipe blocks (I think the pipe is now a service item). The turbo oil-pipe cab block if the wrong oil is used. I wouldn't dismiss incorrect lubrication as a source of your problems just yet.

Cheers - not fun.
No reason given for the turbo blowing. Original thought was that the turbo had been shot (dont know why), meaning then the turbo had burnt oil, leading to low oil and more oil then being added.

No fun

mickdw

You replaced crankshaft and more or less all associated parts. If it has been damaged again after 1000 miles, I'd be looking towards the mechanic that did this work and finding out what was missed or what was done wrong for this to happen again. It's crazy stuff.
Replacement f10 engine on ebay 1950 sterling. No idea if it's right one but if they can be bought from reputable dealers for that type of money, I'd go that way.

Nonoperational

This is crazy. If the work on the crank was done properly with BMW parts then there would be a parts warranty on them. It sounds like the mechanic has a few questions to answer here. Horrible situation.

It's rare situations like this that main dealers can come into their own.

Humblepie

mickdw wrote: »

You replaced crankshaft and more or less all associated parts. If it has been damaged again after 1000 miles, I'd be looking towards the mechanic that did this work and finding out what was missed or what was done wrong for this to happen again. It's crazy stuff.
Replacement f10 engine on ebay 1950 sterling. No idea if it's right one but if they can be bought from reputable dealers for that type of money, I'd go that way.

Cheers, having done the research, the car has been returned to mechanic and told to sort it. As said by someone in an earlier reply, main dealer would have to an investigation themselves - another 1000 sponds.
Thanks a lot for yer replies and suggestions.

Nonoperational

Let us know how you get on. Hope it gets sorted.

Gumbo

Humblepie wrote: »

Cheers, having done the research, the car has been returned to mechanic and told to sort it. As said by someone in an earlier reply, main dealer would have to an investigation themselves - another 1000 sponds.
Thanks a lot for yer replies and suggestions.

Any goodwill i got in the past started out at a risk of €85 that the dealer would charge me for diagnostic and in the case of BMW not covering it, i would have to pay only this amount.

coolbeans

Those costs are horrific. You have my sympathies.

galwaytt

coolbeans wrote: »

Those costs are horrific. You have my sympathies.

The costs are horrific - but they do reflect the scale of the FU by BMW on this. Costs quoted to me for a Mazda with not-dissimilar issues years ago was about the same.

colm_mcm

I can't see BMW giving goodwill on this tbh. Its not like its a stereo that an indie replaced and now its not working. The failure seems to be due to misdiagnosis and not the parts themselves.

noelf

I

galwaytt wrote: »

The costs are horrific - but they do reflect the scale of the FU by BMW on this. Costs quoted to me for a Mazda with not-dissimilar issues years ago was about the same.

what I can't understand is why BMW have being winning engine design awards for years perhaps they should stick to Toyota ev technology what does Toyota get in return ??

Drummerboy08

Lads I don't think the problem in this case lies with BMW.

It does sound as though the vehicle wasn't serviced correctly earlier in it's lifetime. The second issue with the crank sounds like the mechanic's fault.

I would be checking the early service history to see where and when it was serviced, and start my investigation there, as this does sound like the root of the problem regarding the turbo issue, and indeed the crank. Oil starvation?

lomb

I would never and I mean never pay for an engine or gearbox rebuild. It will never be right after on balance of probabilities. The reason is that mechanics even BMW own don't have access to the tools and work flow as well as controls on an assembly line by people building the same engines day in day out. Things like bolts will never be torqued to spec whereas on a line machines /hand tools preset for torque are offered up to each individual bolt.
The other problem is a turbo letting go is a sign of oil starvation and a crank breaking sounds like bearing failure so the crank isn't spinning true. That then can take out other parts like bearing shells with cracks or distortion and no one may spot it. Also oil starvation could affect any part of the engine in short you may not know whats wrong with it. I would be seeking to reclaim some of the 5500 from the guy who fixed it the labour anyway and getting a salvage engine and writing it off as an experience in the above..

Casati

lomb wrote: »

I would never and I mean never pay for an engine or gearbox rebuild. It will never be right after on balance of probabilities. The reason is that mechanics even BMW own don't have access to the tools and work flow as well as controls on an assembly line by people building the same engines day in day out. Things like bolts will never be torqued to spec whereas on a line machines /hand tools preset for torque are offered up to each individual bolt.
The other problem is a turbo letting go is a sign of oil starvation and a crank breaking sounds like bearing failure so the crank isn't spinning true. That then can take out other parts like bearing shells with cracks or distortion and no one may spot it. Also oil starvation could affect any part of the engine in short you may not know whats wrong with it. I would be seeking to reclaim some of the 5500 from the guy who fixed it the labour anyway and getting a salvage engine and writing it off as an experience in the above..

The car would be de-valued greatly with a second-hand engine replacement so is not a good idea.. I hate to be in the OPs position but would do everything to get the mechanic to fix it up and then stick it on car zone

BMW appear to care only about maximising bhp and minimising co2 emissions, reliability is a joke. How many threads do we see involving low mileage Beemers needing engine re-builds???

lomb

Casati wrote: »

I hate to be in the OPs position but would do everything to get the mechanic to fix it up and then stick it on car zone

?

So what your saying is you have no more confidence in a rebuild than I do.
I would still get a salvage engine, whos to ever know its been replaced? Even if they do then If the OP keeps it for 3 years it will not then be worth less than one with an original engine as cars are bought on condition at this age.

Drummerboy08

Casati wrote: »

BMW appear to care only about maximising bhp and minimising co2 emissions, reliability is a joke. How many threads do we see involving low mileage Beemers needing engine re-builds???

Once again, I dont think this issue is down to a BMW problem.

Nonoperational

This is down to low oil, which indicates poor care early in the car's life, and bad luck/a bad mechanic. This is not a fundamental design flaw like the earlier engines that ate timing chains. Please lets not turn this into a rant about modern diesels/BMWs.

mickdw

A replacement engine is the only way out really.
While I agree that it would devalue the car somewhat, given the current situation, I think that is a minor side effect and in any event won't devalue it as much as a faulty engine.
I'm not a fan of rebuilds either. Too many end up as a short term fix when the real cause of the problem is not found.

Technoprisoner

some of the post in this thread are a bit mad to be fair...no point blaming bmw or the mechanic until you know what has failed. was it a manufacturing fault or maybe wrong size bearing used? too much of a guessing game to point fingers and expect to put the blame on anyone

Henry Ford III

Nonoperational wrote: »

This is down to low oil, which indicates poor care early in the car's life, and bad luck/a bad mechanic. This is not a fundamental design flaw like the earlier engines that ate timing chains. Please lets not turn this into a rant about modern diesels/BMWs.

I don't think that diagnosis is reasonable based on the very limited info. we have.

Casati

Technoprisoner wrote: »

some of the post in this thread are a bit mad to be fair...no point blaming bmw or the mechanic until you know what has failed. was it a manufacturing fault or maybe wrong size bearing used? too much of a guessing game to point fingers and expect to put the blame on anyone

Maybe my expectations are too high? If I was in the OP's shoes I wouldn't be happy with BMW for manufacturing a car that needed a turbo and crankshaft replaced after 4 years of average miles, especially when the car has been well serviced.

My guess is because its a BMW people are more accepting of the OP's problems because we have all seen numerous serious issues with their most models over the last 10 years?

Technoprisoner

Casati wrote: »

Maybe my expectations are too high? If I was in the OP's shoes I wouldn't be happy with BMW for manufacturing a car that needed a turbo and crankshaft replaced after 4 years of average miles, especially when the car has been well serviced.

My guess is because its a BMW people are more accepting of the OP's problems because we have all seen numerous serious issues with their most models over the last 10 years?

well turbos and crankshafts dont fail for no reason. having both fail together or within a short time of each other points towards problems with oil. but is it an oil pump failure? maybe a bearing going out of tolerance? or is it something as silly as having no oil for the pump to scavenge? too many variables involved. Then you have the second failure? what was the cause of this? something similar or maybe bearing not sized correctly...or even a bit of dirt on the bearings lowering oil pressure....or was it a manufacturing fault. without seeing the engine being striped you may never know...this is why i say you cant point fingers at anyone in particular

lomb

There would be too high a labour cost to properly strip the engine and assess it. I dont think there is anyone in Ireland who could do this well and that included the main dealership staff. I would be looking for a salvage engine immediately. Perhaps ask the mechanic if he will fit for free considering the work not lasting. I think that would be fair for everyone.

jetfiremuck

Have we any proof that he 72k on the car is genuine? Bizzare crank problems. Is it posible that the turbo overboosted the engine under high load. Cranks downt just break.

lomb

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Have we any proof that he 72k on the car is genuine? Bizzare crank problems. Is it posible that the turbo overboosted the engine under high load. Cranks downt just break.

A loose bearing, warped bearing shell etc would cause the crank not to spin true or to be stressed which would break it.

galwaytt

mickdw wrote: »

A replacement engine is the only way out really.
While I agree that it would devalue the car somewhat, given the current situation, I think that is a minor side effect and in any event won't devalue it as much as a faulty engine.
I'm not a fan of rebuilds either. Too many end up as a short term fix when the real cause of the problem is not found.

Given the poor rep of this engine, you'd be nuts to buy a used engine.

What BeeEmm should do is offer brand new new engines as part of some sort of deal.

mickdw

galwaytt wrote: »

Given the poor rep of this engine, you'd be nuts to buy a used engine.

What BeeEmm should do is offer brand new new engines as part of some sort of deal.

I don't see any other option but to buy a used engine. He has already thrown 7 to 8k at the problem and looking at spending much of that again.
Bmw were not involved in the repair and as such I don't see why they would offer anything in this case.

galwaytt

mickdw wrote: »

I don't see any other option but to buy a used engine. He has already thrown 7 to 8k at the problem and looking at spending much of that again.
Bmw were not involved in the repair and as such I don't see why they would offer anything in this case.

The deal im talking about was not aimed at OP alone, but at all n47 owner's.
OP is bit further deeper in the financial pit, but it would still be a better option than buying another n47 grenade.

Has anyone actually priced a new engine, complete ?

galwaytt

mickdw wrote: »

I don't see any other option but to buy a used engine. He has already thrown 7 to 8k at the problem and looking at spending much of that again.
Bmw were not involved in the repair and as such I don't see why they would offer anything in this case.

Actually OP really only has 2 choices: 1 is to fix at any cost, but keep the car for 10 years to get some value for his money.
Option 2 is to sell as-is and to not spend another cent on it and chalk it up to experience.

noelf

galwaytt wrote: »

Actually OP really only has 2 choices: 1 is to fix at any cost, but keep the car for 10 years to get some value for his money.
Option 2 is to sell as-is and to not spend another cent on it and chalk it up to experience.

Who would be brave enough to buy it ?

lomb

Its a 3k repair, 2500ish for an engine inc shipping and 500ish for labour to put it in. Not the end of the world. The 5500 that was spent on rebuilding the engine was A too dear and B money down the toilet. Ive had mechanics advising me to rebuild an engine before but I think its to amuse them playing with bearings and cranks and not to get me value for money. I genuinely don't think anyone in Ireland can rebuild an engine properly. Theres plenty who will take your money but ask them to give a reasonable 20000 mile and 2 year warranty and I doubt there are any takers.

Idbatterim

if the engine is replaced, could it be with the newer one that came out around 2011, that was meant to have the timing chain issue sorted?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-520D-Diesel-ENGINE-2-0-F10-11-N47-D20O1-Fits-10-to-11-SUPPLY-FITT-/141183265753?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20df2dabd9

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-120D-320D-520D-F10-184-BHP-DIESEL-ENGINE-2010-N47D20C-20K-CAN-DELIVER-90-DA-/261389086397?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cdc00eebd

galwaytt

Idbatterim wrote: »

if the engine is replaced, could it be with the newer one that came out around 2011, that was meant to have the timing chain issue sorted?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-520D-Diesel-ENGINE-2-0-F10-11-N47-D20O1-Fits-10-to-11-SUPPLY-FITT-/141183265753?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20df2dabd9

Rebuilt and fitted for that price ? Simply not possible - that wouldn't cover parts alone that need fixing. Actually I think a crank alone would cost more than that.

mickdw

I don't see the issue with fitting an engine from a fresh breaker car. They cannot all be falling to bits.