contrary to the rules of golf?

shaneon77

we have a hidden lake on our course and there is a local rule in place that you must play a provisional ball if your ball goes in the direction of the hazard. The gui have deemed this as contrary to the rules of golf. What are the options? Apologies for the underlined text, the phone won't switch it off for me.

Senna

Is it red stakes or yellow stakes around the lake? But yes they are correct, you can only play a provisional if you believe the ball to be lost or OOB, not when its in a water hazard. Water hazard has different rules, normally a drop, but depending on the surrounds of the lake, many people want to hit a provisional rather than drop into possibly a worse position, but that's against the rules.

Water Hazards (Rule 26)

If your ball is in a water hazard (yellow stakes and/or lines) you may play the ball as it lies or, under penalty of one stroke:

play a ball from where your last shot was played, or
drop a ball any distance behind the water hazard keeping a straight line between the hole, the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

If your ball is in a lateral water hazard (red stakes and/or lines), in addition to the options for a ball in a water hazard (see above), under penalty of one stroke, you may drop within two club-lengths of, and not nearer the hole than:

the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, or
a point on the opposite side of the hazard equidistant to the hole from the point where the ball last crossed the margin.

Ben1977

If it's hidden you can not claim the ball entered the lake because you did not see it. You can only declare the ball lost.
That's the reason for the provisional.
If you can spot and identify the ball in the water then you can drop and play from the drop.

bobwilliams

Ben1977 wrote: »

If it's hidden you can not claim the ball entered the lake because you did not see it. You can only declare the ball lost.
That's the reason for the provisional.
If you can spot and identify the ball in the water then you can drop and play from the drop.

are you 100% sure about that??

Senecio

Ben1977 wrote: »

If it's hidden you can not claim the ball entered the lake because you did not see it. You can only declare the ball lost.
That's the reason for the provisional.
If you can spot and identify the ball in the water then you can drop and play from the drop.

That's not correct. I believe the rule reads something like "knowledge or virtually certainty". So you do not have to see it enter if you and your players are virtually certain that it did.

Back to OP. The best thing the club can do is fill in the hazard or declare it an internal OOB. blind hazards are always a contentious issue.

Renno

We had a long discussion about this a few months back. ("We" as in lots of people with better knowledge than me discussed it, and I read it!)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057041032&page=4

The relevant bit is at

John Divney wrote: »

There can be a local rule for blind hazards where balls may be lost

Appendix I -2b Permitting play of a provisional ball under Rule 26-1 for a ball that may be in a water hazard of such character that if the original ball is not found, there is reasonable evidence that it is lost in the water hazard and it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play. The ball is played provisionally under any of the available options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a provisional ball is played and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the provisional ball in play, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.

onlyfinewine

Here we go again!

WattyWoo

Renno is right.The problem you have op is the use of the word "must".
Must means its mandatory and by definition if you don't comply there is a penalty.
In the recommended sample local rule as quoted above the word used is "May".
That is where the breach of Rules applies in yere case.

Golfgraffix

We had this problem on the 4th hole at Portmarnock Links 2 years ago. water right of the mounds on the right side of the fairway. We changed from red stakes to OB.

Not such a big issue as it is the edge of the course, presonally i hate internal OB.

J

Sandwlch

Ben1977 wrote: »

If it's hidden you can not claim the ball entered the lake because you did not see it. You can only declare the ball lost.
That's the reason for the provisional.
If you can spot and identify the ball in the water then you can drop and play from the drop.

Can you 'declare' a ball lost though ?

Ben1977

bobwilliams wrote: »

are you 100% sure about that??

Maybe my wording was not 100% but you got the idea.

bobwilliams

Ben1977 wrote: »

Maybe my wording was not 100% but you got the idea.

wording??what you said was incorrect.

charlieIRL

Sandwlch wrote: »

Can you 'declare' a ball lost though ?

No you can't but we know what he means

shaneon77

Some good insight thanks, its a workable solution we need though. Not sure an internal OB would work. The lake is small and between a fairway and a green from another hole. Its just a pain frankly.

Ben1977

bobwilliams wrote: »

wording??what you said was incorrect.

Thanks that helps the OP

ShriekingSheet

The GUI either clarified this (in writing on the tee) or put a local rule in for the 13th at Lisheen Springs (then South County).

Certainty of the ball being in the hazard is only part of the problem. Just as problematic is the point of entry, as not knowing that means you're guessing where to drop.

So, the rule as per the GUI is that you play a provisional (as someone mentioned above). However, you can ONLY use your first ball and play an unpenalised second shot if you both (a) find the ball in the hazard, and (b) play it as it lies from the hazard.

You can't drop out of the hazard, even if you find your ball in it. It sounds mad to me, but that's the rule. If you can't play it as it lies, or you can't find it, you play your 4th shot from the provisional ball.

It's based on the initial point of not knowing where it crossed the line, so you don't know where to drop.

For te record, I think it's a poxy way of "solving" the issue. I'm just clarifying that that is an official ruling.

Russman

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The GUI either clarified this (in writing on the tee) or put a local rule in for the 13th at Lisheen Springs (then South County).

Certainty of the ball being in the hazard is only part of the problem. Just as problematic is the point of entry, as not knowing that means you're guessing where to drop.

So, the rule as per the GUI is that you play a provisional (as someone mentioned above). However, you can ONLY use your first ball and play an unpenalised second shot if you both (a) find the ball in the hazard, and (b) play it as it lies from the hazard.

You can't drop out of the hazard, even if you find your ball in it. It sounds mad to me, but that's the rule. If you can't play it as it lies, or you can't find it, you play your 4th shot from the provisional ball.

It's based on the initial point of not knowing where it crossed the line, so you don't know where to drop.

For te record, I think it's a poxy way of "solving" the issue. I'm just clarifying that that is an official ruling.

Totally agree, it does sound mad.

I wonder would having it as neither a hazard or OOB work ? ie an integral part of the course, so its just a lost ball. Pace of play might be f--ked up though