Cooling a non TRV (Thermostatic) valve radiator?

runswithascript

Hi

We had problems a few months ago with some of the radiators in the house not heating up. The plumber we called, who seems very genuine, advised because the bungalow was extended it caused the problem. He replaced the small pump outside at the boiler, adjusted the rads (maybe bled them too), and since all the rads are working.

The problem we have now is that the rad in one of the bedrooms is just too hot for the size of the room. We are going to have all the valves replaced with TRVs but until that time I would like to lower the temperature of this radiator short of turning it off completely. I called the plumber and he told me to just open either of the valves a quarter of a turn, that it does not matter which valve. Even at this, or opening a valve an eight of a turn the rad is still hopping off the wall.

I have identified the flow valve as the one that gets hot first, and the return as the other valve. The return valve looks the same as the flow valve pictured below, both of which I think are lockshield valves? Is there anyway to lower the temperature of this rad? If so please advise how open both the return and flow valves should be.

dodzy

dusf wrote: »

Hi

We had problems a few months ago with some of the radiators in the house not heating up. The plumber we called, who seems very genuine, advised because the bungalow was extended it caused the problem. He replaced the small pump outside at the boiler, adjusted the rads (maybe bled them too), and since all the rads are working.

The problem we have now is that the rad in one of the bedrooms is just too hot for the size of the room. We are going to have all the valves replaced with TRVs but until that time I would like to lower the temperature of this radiator short of turning it off completely. I called the plumber and he told me to just open either of the valves a quarter of a turn, that it does not matter which valve. Even at this, or opening a valve an eight of a turn the rad is still hopping off the wall.

I have identified the flow valve as the one that gets hot first, and the return as the other valve. The return valve looks the same as the flow valve pictured below, both of which I think are lockshield valves? Is there anyway to lower the temperature of this rad? If so please advise how open both the return and flow valves should be.

1. Turn off heating.
2. Open both of those valves fully, noting the turns required. Both of these valves are identical, the only difference is that the LSV has a non-tamper top, and usually located on the return feed while the adjustable valve is on the flow side.
3. Fire up the heating taking note of which side gets warm first, indicating flow side.
4. Turn the return valve clockwise to almost completely closed
5. See how you go, and if required turn the flow valve to almost completely closed also.

You should be able to get it to a position whereby there is a trickle of heat to the rad in question.

Just be aware that if initially set up correctly, adjusting the LSV is affecting the balance between rads, hence taking note of its original position if needed to default.

runswithascript

Thanks for the reply.

dodzy wrote: »

1. Turn off heating.
2. Open both of those valves fully, noting the turns required. Both of these valves are identical, the only difference is that the LSV has a non-tamper top, and usually located on the return feed while the adjustable valve is on the flow side.

Both valves are now fully open and the heat is off maybe 30 minutes. Unfortunately the plastic tops have long since been lost. I understand the only difference between the LSV and the other valve is that the LSV is the return (far end, output) valve and only for balancing across all radiators where as the flow or (near end, input) valve is for adjusting each radiator's individual heat.

dodzy wrote: »

3. Fire up the heating taking note of which side gets warm first, indicating flow side.

Cool, I have worked out which is flow and which is return.

dodzy wrote: »

4. Turn the return valve clockwise to almost completely closed

5. See how you go, and if required turn the flow valve to almost completely closed also.

Once the rad is cool enough to notice any change I will try with flow completely open and return almost completely closed, then if necessary, after letting it cool down again I will try with flow also completely closed also.

It seems strange though, that having both the flow valve completely open and nearly closed would establish a low heat? I have previously tried with both valves set to one eight turn open and the rad was still too warm to keep my hand on after holding it there 15 seconds or so. If it comes to it I guess I will just have to close the valves even more.

dodzy

dusf wrote: »

. If it comes to it I guess I will just have to close the valves even more.

good, and there is always the possibility that if almost completely closed and the rad is still hopping, that one of the valves is shot.

runswithascript

dodzy wrote: »

good, and there is always the possibility that if almost completely closed and the rad is still hopping, that one of the valves is shot.

Late last night after letting it cool down, adjusting a few times, and turning the heat back on we got the rad heating but not so hot we could not leave our hands on it - exactly what we wanted. Other rads also are still hopping which we wants.


Thanks a million for the help dodzy!

For anyone reading this in future looking to do the same, I think both the flow valve and return valve are open only a 16th (22.5 degrees) or less of a turn.

dodzy

dusf wrote: »

Late last night after letting it cool down, adjusting a few times, and turning the heat back on we got the rad heating but not so hot we could not leave our hands on it - exactly what we wanted. Other rads also are still hopping which we wants.


Thanks a million for the help dodzy!

For anyone reading this in future looking to do the same, I think both the flow valve and return valve are open only a 16th (22.5 degrees) or less of a turn.

No prob, glad you got sorted. It only takes a fraction of a turn. Obviously, they are not designed for precision control. Get the TRVs when you get a few quid. They are cheap enough these days, handy enough to swap out, and give you proper control.

runswithascript

dodzy wrote: »

No prob, glad you got sorted. It only takes a fraction of a turn. Obviously, they are not designed for precision control. Get the TRVs when you get a few quid. They are cheap enough these days, handy enough to swap out, and give you proper control.

I know someone who had them fit recently and I asked if they would do it themselves and they said no because the plumber had to drain the system etc.

Is it difficult? Have you fit them, and are you just a regular Joe or a tradesman? I man not a tradesman but usually handy enough around the house etc.

dodzy

dusf wrote: »

I know someone who had them fit recently and I asked if they would do it themselves and they said no because the plumber had to drain the system etc.

Is it difficult? Have you fit them, and are you just a regular Joe or a tradesman? I man not a tradesman but usually handy enough around the house etc.

A regular joe. Drain it down. It's not difficult. Plenty of online tutorials for reference if you're not sure. Again, have a look online and then only you can judge if it is within your scope, but if you're handy, you'll be fine

runswithascript

dodzy wrote: »

A regular joe. Drain it down. It's not difficult. Plenty of online tutorials for reference if you're not sure. Again, have a look online and then only you can judge if it is within your scope, but if you're handy, you'll be fine

Thanks again!

The process of changing a radiator valve is very easy but in some cases a gas boiler can melt if not approached correctly also air in the system can be a pain.

runswithascript

gary71 wrote: »

The process of changing a radiator valve is very easy but in some cases a gas boiler can melt if not approached correctly also air in the system can be a pain.

We may just get the professional plumber to do it. He is a decent guy and I can rest assured when he leaves the entire finicky system is as it should be.

So far we plan on getting TSV put in all the rooms and a proper timer installed. The old timer broke and right now the cables running to the boiler are wired into a plug and which is in the mains.

Are there any other features to consider while getting this done? Zoning does not really seem necessary as there is only one room we would like the heat turned off in every second weekend and setting the TSV off should not be too much hassle!

dusf

dusf wrote: »

We may just get the professional plumber to do it. He is a decent guy and I can rest assured when he leaves the entire finicky system is as it should be.

So far we plan on getting TSV put in all the rooms and a proper timer installed. The old timer broke and right now the cables running to the boiler are wired into a plug and which is in the mains.

Are there any other features to consider while getting this done? Zoning does not really seem necessary as there is only one room we would like the heat turned off in every second weekend and setting the TSV off should not be too much hassle!

Again changing valves is easy enough it's the impact the work has on the boiler and heating system on refilling that problems can crop up.

Instead of trv you could try a wireless roomstat which would be easy in most cases to fit(depending on plumbing) and work well with a balanced heating system.

If it was my house I'd have a room thermoset fitted as a give with trvs on all the rads bar the bathroom(normally a bypass rad) and the rad near the wall mounted thermostat.

I'd (power) flush the system if there were any signs of dirt in the water then fit a magnetic filter to protect the boiler, then id fill up with inhibitor and protect it with my life.

When zoning a system or adding trvs I'd fit a automatic bypass as a given they are inexpensive and are only used when there is high resistance from the heating circuit improving pump longevity.

I'd also want temperture control on my hot water.

If you have a look at the link below it explains a bit about different levels of control.

http://perfectheatingandplumbing.co.uk/Docs/Central_Heating_System_Specifications_(CheSS).pdf

runswithascript

gary71 wrote: »

Again changing valves is easy enough it's the impact the work has on the boiler and heating system on refilling that problems can crop up.

Instead of trv you could try a wireless roomstat which would be easy in most cases to fit(depending on plumbing) and work well with a balanced heating system.

If it was my house I'd have a room thermoset fitted as a give with trvs on all the rads bar the bathroom(normally a bypass rad) and the rad near the wall mounted thermostat.

I'd (power) flush the system if there were any signs of dirt in the water then fit a magnetic filter to protect the boiler, then id fill up with inhibitor and protect it with my life.

When zoning a system or adding trvs I'd fit a automatic bypass as a given they are inexpensive and are only used when there is high resistance from the heating circuit improving pump longevity.

I'd also want temperture control on my hot water.

If you have a look at the link below it explains a bit about different levels of control.

http://perfectheatingandplumbing.co.uk/Docs/Central_Heating_System_Specifications_(CheSS).pdf

Thanks, I have asked for a quote on the rads and a timer fit but I could adjust that. I will read through that PDF this evening.

Can you advise what benefit the wireless roomstat and thermoset offer compared to a TRV, and would each/most rooms have the roomstat or just the living room? As I understand it the TRV will shut the heat off in individual rooms keeping the temperature constant and reducing our bills.

I am not sure zoning is necessary, as the cottage is only a small two bed right now and the only room we can think of wanting off when the rest is on is one every second weekend - which would be easy to turn off.

Temperature control on hot water would be great. Less waste and big savings, right?

I am not familiar with automatic bypass but I understand the hot water will pass by a TRV rad if the room is already the temperature we want...

runswithascript

Googling roomstat linked me to a thermostat which I am familiar with:

How does a thermostat work?

The room thermostat senses the air and adjusts your heating system accordingly. Once the room reaches temperature the central heating will be turned off. If the air temperature drops below the thermostat setting the heating will switch on.

This sounds an awful lot like what the TSVs will do only the thermostat will knock the heating off for the whole house which we do not want. I am guessing a roomstat is individual to each room. Are they better than the TSVs alone because they provide a more accurate reading not being attached to part of the radiator?

dusf

dusf wrote: »

Thanks, I have asked for a quote on the rads and a timer fit but I could adjust that. I will read through that PDF this evening.

Can you advise what benefit the wireless roomstat and thermoset offer compared to a TRV, and would each/most rooms have the roomstat or just the living room? As I understand it the TRV will shut the heat off in individual rooms keeping the temperature constant and reducing our bills.

I am not sure zoning is necessary, as the cottage is only a small two bed right now and the only room we can think of wanting off when the rest is on is one every second weekend - which would be easy to turn off.

Temperature control on hot water would be great. Less waste and big savings, right?


I am not familiar with automatic bypass but I understand the hot water will pass by a TRV rad if the room is already the temperature we want...

Temperture control on a cylinder is very important and be a vices simply by fitting a mechanical device like a cytrol valve but a proper cylinder stat and zone valve will save you a fortune.

The main benifit of a wireless room stat is cost.
Without a roomstat you set the overal temperture by boiler thermostat, fitting a roomstat allows you more control as the boiler will switch off once the house has reached a given temperture, roomstats were around long before trvs and when used with a balanced system can work very well.

The more controlability you have the smaller your bills will be, there are different levels of control so you have to decide which matches best your finances and your plumbing, personally I like a roomstat controlling the overal temperture and trvs for finer tuning.

Auto bypass are a small device (€15-€20)often over looked in plumbing design but do wonders for system health by allowing (mainly gas)boilers to dissipate heat and reduces strain on the pump (pumping in to a deadend)as the trvs close or zones close, their jobs is allow energy to pass in to the return pipe from the flow if the resistance from the valves closing becomes to much.

dusf

dusf wrote: »

Googling roomstat linked me to a thermostat which I am familiar with:



This sounds an awful lot like what the TSVs will do only the thermostat will knock the heating off for the whole house which we do not want. I am guessing a roomstat is individual to each room. Are they better than the TSVs alone because they provide a more accurate reading not being attached to part of the radiator?

For every zone you have a stat, when I started gas fitting one thermostate was the norm and the system would be balanced around that stat and it's position in the house, later when trvs came along they were added to give the house holder more control, room stats then went out of fashion because it takes less skill just to fit trvs than wire a zoned heating system.

runswithascript

gary71 wrote: »

Temperture control on a cylinder is very important and be a vices simply by fitting a mechanical device like a cytrol valve but a proper cylinder stat and zone valve will save you a fortune.

I appreciate the reply but can you please explain that to me in laymans' terms, are the temperature control cylinder or cytrol valve the same as the TSV orare both different? Will the zone valve do anything other than turn off the heat in the one room we will not be using that we can do manually if TSVs installed, considering it is either the heat to the whole house or just one specific room we will ever want to turn off?

gary71 wrote: »

The main benifit of a wireless room stat is cost.
Without a roomstat you set the overal temperture by boiler thermostat, fitting a roomstat allows you more control as the boiler will switch off once the house has reached a given temperture, roomstats were around long before trvs and when used with a balanced system can work very well.

Again, why are they any better than TSVs in every room, will TSVs not turn off the heat for individual rads when they reach a certain temperature?

gary71 wrote: »

The more controlability you have the smaller your bills will be, there are different levels of control so you have to decide which matches best your finances and your plumbing, personally I like a roomstat controlling the overal temperture and trvs for finer tuning.

See my lack of understanding above

gary71 wrote: »

Auto bypass are a small device (€15-€20)often over looked in plumbing design but do wonders for system health by allowing (mainly gas)boilers to dissipate heat and reduces strain on the pump (pumping in to a deadend)as the trvs close or zones close, their jobs is allow energy to pass in to the return pipe from the flow if the resistance from the valves closing becomes to much.

I had thought TSVs would do the same thing, turning off the rad when not more flow is required?

Would remote control over GSM or the Internet cost a fortune? Just to turn on and off the heat separate to what the timer is set to.

dusf

dusf wrote: »

I appreciate the reply but can you please explain that to me in laymans' terms, are the temperature control cylinder or cytrol valve the same as the TSV orare both different? Will the zone valve do anything other than turn off the heat in the one room we will not be using that we can do manually if TSVs installed, considering it is either the heat to the whole house or just one specific room we will ever want to turn off?

You need to stop heating your cylinder at a given temperture usually 60c to not do this costs you money and risks scalding, there are different control methods and your plumber will tell what suits your installation be it electric or mechanical.

dusf wrote: »

Again, why are they any better than TSVs in every room, will TSVs not turn off the heat for individual rads when they reach a certain temperature?

The boiler will stay on and cycle on and off if you don't tell it the house is warm with a roomstat which in turn wastes your money.

dusf wrote: »

I had thought TSVs would do the same thing, turning off the rad when not more flow is required?

When trvs close they make your heating system smaller and smaller and your pump will pump in what could be called a dead end possibly burning your pump out

dusf wrote: »

Would remote control over GSM or the Internet cost a fortune? Just to turn on and off the heat separate to what the timer is set to.

Gizmo gadget my advice is to keep things as simple as possible, I'd have lever valves in my house if I was let.

runswithascript

gary71 wrote: »

You need to stop heating your cylinder at a given temperture usually 60c to not do this costs you money and risks scalding, there are different control methods and your plumber will tell what suits your installation be it electric or mechanical.

Okay, I will check with the plumber, but we do have a temperature dial out the back beside the boiler and the pump, in fact I think it might be attached/part of the boiler - maybe that is what you are talking about.

gary71 wrote: »

The boiler will stay on and cycle on and off if you don't tell it the house is warm with a roomstat which in turn wastes your money.

Sh!t, I had not thought of that. So if the TSV control on and off in individual rooms (once the boiler is going), and the roomstat in one room controls the boiler and therefore the whole house, do you not end up in a situation where the temperature in the roomstat room reaches the desired heat and then knocks off the heat for every room in the house, some of which may still be too cold? Also, if you have two roomstats do both have to agree to turn the heat off but only one to turn it on?

gary71 wrote: »

When trvs close they make your heating system smaller and smaller and your pump will pump in what could be called a dead end possibly burning your pump out

I was not aware of that. A new small pump was only installed out the back beside the boiler a few months ago because some rads were not heating up, extended house, pipes were not lain properly etc.

So how would you recommend we avoid the pump burning out, and what is the best configuration to save money and energy of roomstats and TSVs to compliment the digital heat timer?

We live in a two bedroom cottage, rad in each smallish room and the small front hall, two rads in the large living room (large as in double the area of one bedroom), rad at either end of the kitchen come dining room, rad in bathroom. 7 rads total. We would like the living room and kitchen/dining room warmest with the bedrooms, front hall, and bathroom warm but at a lesser more moderate heat.

dusf

dusf wrote: »

Okay, I will check with the plumber, but we do have a temperature dial out the back beside the boiler and the pump, in fact I think it might be attached/part of the boiler - maybe that is what you are talking about.

Nope, you have a thermostat on the boiler to control the maximum temperture of the water leaving the boiler, ideally you'd have a thermostat on your hot water cylinder that stops heat getting to it when it reaches a set temperture then turns off the boiler if no heat is required for your heating circuit.

dusf wrote: »

Sh!t, I had not thought of that. So if the TSV control on and off in individual rooms (once the boiler is going), and the roomstat in one room controls the boiler and therefore the whole house, do you not end up in a situation where the temperature in the roomstat room reaches the desired heat and then knocks off the heat for every room in the house, some of which may still be too cold? Also, if you have two roomstats do both have to agree to turn the heat off but only one to turn it on?

Each thermostat on a zoned system works independently of each other.

Although a room thermoset has primary control of a property they work well with a balanced system or a system with TRVs

dusf wrote: »

I was not aware of that. A new small pump was only installed out the back beside the boiler a few months ago because some rads were not heating up, extended house, pipes were not lain properly etc.

So how would you recommend we avoid the pump burning out, and what is the best configuration to save money and energy of roomstats and TSVs to compliment the digital heat timer?

I would fit a auto bypass as a given even with a bypass rad on a circuit where TRVs are fitted, auto bypasses are good for system health and are only open when needed

Any level of control is better than none.

If it were me I would want as a minimum time and temperture control with a boiler interlock on my cylinder and time and temperture control with a boiler interlock on my heating.

If I could afford it I would then fit TRVs.

dusf wrote: »

We live in a two bedroom cottage, rad in each smallish room and the small front hall, two rads in the large living room (large as in double the area of one bedroom), rad at either end of the kitchen come dining room, rad in bathroom. 7 rads total. We would like the living room and kitchen/dining room warmest with the bedrooms, front hall, and bathroom warm but at a lesser more moderate heat.

You can achieve this usually with a balanced system and a roomstat but it is dependant on pipework design, fitting TRVs makes achieving this much easier as you have a higher level of controllability and pipework design is less of a issue.

runswithascript

Thanks for Central Heating System Specifications (CHeSS) document you linked earlier, it is great but I am still unclear on one or two things. I am going to quote it here to explain.

We have what looks like a very old boiler and a hot water tank inside the house so I think the section referring to 'Domestic wet central heating system with regular boiler and separate hotwater store' is us.

gary71 wrote: »

Nope, you have a thermostat on the boiler to control the maximum temperture of the water leaving the boiler, ideally you'd have a thermostat on your hot water cylinder that stops heat getting to it when it reaches a set temperture then turns off the boiler if no heat is required for your heating circuit.

CHeSS:

Acylinder thermostat measures thetemperature of the hot water cylinder and switches the water heating on and off.

Okay, so it will just stop the hot water supplying the taps from heating but it will not stop hot water getting to the rads where required, right? Because we use an electric shower we really only need a little bit of hot water for the kitchen to clean it up and pans etc that do not go into the dishwasher after dinner in the evening though it would be nice to have a small ready supply for washing hands etc.

gary71 wrote: »

Each thermostat on a zoned system works independently of each other.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we need a zoned system - unless it would save us money - as we either want the heat on in the whole house, off in the whole house, or on but off in one of the bed rooms which we could just switch off manually with a TSV or would doing so endanger the pump etc?

CHeSS:

A room thermostat measures the air temperature within the building and switchesthe space heating on and off. A single targettemperature may be set by the user.

A programmable room thermostat is a combined time switch and room thermostat which allows the user to set different periodswith different target temperatures for spaceheating, usually in a daily or weekly cycle.Some models also allow time control of hotwater, so can replace a full programmer.

Should we just go with room thermostat(s), or programmable? The cable from the boiler in the kitchen is running into a plug and then mains power so I think we need a new timer or something there anyway to replace the broken old timer...

gary71 wrote: »

Although a room thermoset has primary control of a property they work well with a balanced system or a system with TRVs

Can you not have a balanced system and a TSV?

The main question I have is if the room thermostat is measuring the heat in one room, say the living room, and when a certain temperature is reached it turns off the boiler for the whole house, does the situation not arise where rooms where rooms other than the living room, say the bed rooms, cannot supply heat to their rads because the boiler has been turned off by the room thermostat in the living room?

Also, you mentioned having multiple room thermostats working together. Am I correct only if both rooms have reached the desired temperature will they shut off the boiler, but if one is still cold it will stay on? Also, how many room thermostats would you recommend, maybe one in the living room and one in each bedroom with TSVs on all the other rads?

gary71 wrote: »

I would fit a auto bypass as a given even with a bypass rad on a circuit where TRVs are fitted, auto bypasses are good for system health and are only open when needed

Automatic bypass, check.

gary71 wrote: »

If it were me I would want as a minimum time and temperture control with a boiler interlock on my cylinder and time and temperture control with a boiler interlock on my heating.

Check, check, check, check.

Your have stored hot water without any temperture control which is being heated in a inefficient manor, I wouldn't want this in my house, fitting the correct controls gives you more controllability, the tap water will also be at a temperture that suits independent of your heating circuit(where pipework allows).



Fitting a room thermostat with trvs is a benifit not a hindrance when done properly and with good heating pipework.

The pump only has issues when system design does not take into account the effect trvs or multiple zones will have when they close reducing the size of the heating system the pump is pumping in to, a auto bypass cost very little and puts that problem to bed.


Keep your controls as simple as possible, I see a lot of heating systems controlled by pretty gizmo gadgets but very very few householder understand how to use them which then becomes a hinderance and a bit pointless .

Balancing works best with simplistic heating systems try to balance multi zones systems or systems can be pointless because the system is constantly changing as the valves open and close changing the characteristics of the system.

Trvs will help push the heat out to colder rads by closing the hotter ones.

The use of any system controls is based on the design of the pipework linked to the design of the controls, when done properly it will do what it says on the tin when done incorrectly it can be worse than having no controls at all, with a roomstate positioned correctly in a place that's last to get to temperture you can control easily the overal temp of the house, if on the other hand a roomstat is fitted above a toaster the rest of the house will struggle to get warm especially at breakfast time.

As for how many zones I would have as many as is practical, usually bedrooms are split from day rooms but with trvs one heating zone is enough.