Crackdown on the way for Dublin Bus fare evaders

StreetLight

Drivers in Dublin Bus depots are currently being given leaflets to fill out detailing the times and locations of persistent fare evaders. These details will be passed on to the company's Revenue Protection Unit, who plan to use this information to intercept and fine these fare evaders.

The level of staffing in Revenue Protection is to be significantly bolstered by a number of drivers being seconded to the Unit.

mikemac1

Dublin Bus seem to get good cooperation from DSP

The one and only time I saw a team they would ring welfare and could get a super quick answer to verify travel passes

AlekSmart

StreetLight wrote: »

Drivers in Dublin Bus depots are currently being given leaflets to fill out detailing the times and locations of persistent fare evaders. These details will be passed on to the company's Revenue Protection Unit, who plan to use this information to intercept and fine these fare evaders.

The level of staffing in Revenue Protection is to be significantly bolstered by a number of drivers being seconded to the Unit.

It's the first public signs that significant change is now being accellerated.

However,it's planned as quite a protracted collection of events,with a far higher level of on-bus checking and later,ID validation being the first visible elements.

As the DSP's move to chipped cards also accelerates,it adds the newly collated ID Data to the DSP's own Database,which will eventually lead to on-the-spot ID verification without the need to actually question people as to their status.

This is bolstered by the fact that the DSP Cards security protocol is to the SAFE1 standard,on a par with new Driving Licences and Driver Qualification Cards.

At the end of the process the DSP/RSA and Revenue Commissioners will each have a set of specific ID databases capable of interacting with,and through each other.

We are now,at last,moving from careering blindly along with quite possibly THE most forgeable Free Travel Document in Europe,to having one of the MOST advanced Identity Verifcation infrastructures in Europe...all good news IMO,but one which is almost immediately going to lead to quite a degree of displeasure and ill-feeling as individuals of long standing are finally asked to pay a Fare :eek: :eek: :eek:

Uriel.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's the first public signs that significant change is now being accellerated.

However,it's planned as quite a protracted collection of events,with a far higher level of on-bus checking and later,ID validation being the first visible elements.

As the DSP's move to chipped cards also accelerates,it adds the newly collated ID Data to the DSP's own Database,which will eventually lead to on-the-spot ID verification without the need to actually question people as to their status.

This is bolstered by the fact that the DSP Cards security protocol is to the SAFE1 standard,on a par with new Driving Licences and Driver Qualification Cards.

At the end of the process the DSP/RSA and Revenue Commissioners will each have a set of specific ID databases capable of interacting with,and through each other.

We are now,at last,moving from careering blindly along with quite possibly THE most forgeable Free Travel Document in Europe,to having one of the MOST advanced Identity Verifcation infrastructures in Europe...all good news IMO,but one which is almost immediately going to lead to quite a degree of displeasure and ill-feeling as individuals of long standing are finally asked to pay a Fare :eek: :eek: :eek:

Realistically, I'd imagine a high percentage of evaders/fraudsters will not be punished in any recognisable way."too poor" / "no economic means" to cough up. Until we start attaching sanctions to welfare payments or tax credits it's not going to make much difference.

Morf

AlekSmart wrote: »

We are now,at last,moving from careering blindly along with quite possibly THE most forgeable Free Travel Document in Europe,to having one of the MOST advanced Identity Verifcation infrastructures in Europe...all good news IMO,but one which is almost immediately going to lead to quite a degree of displeasure and ill-feeling as individuals of long standing are finally asked to pay a Fare :eek: :eek: :eek:

Incorporating a national identity card to allow passport-less transit around the EU would make sense with all this going on but I doubt it'll happen.

AngryLips

The drivers will have to start getting better at charging to the correct destination point if this is to work...

foggy_lad

Is there that much fare evasion by free travel pass holders compared to those who travel farther than their ticket allows or those who use child or student tickets which they are not entitled to?

I find it odd that such strong emphasis is placed on DSP travel pass holders when the majority of fare evasion is perpetrated by normal cash and seasonal ticket holders.

Uriel.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is there that much fare evasion by free travel pass holders compared to those who travel farther than their ticket allows or those who use child or student tickets which they are not entitled to?

I find it odd that such strong emphasis is placed on DSP travel pass holders when the majority of fare evasion is perpetrated by normal cash and seasonal ticket holders.

Don't know to be honest. Maybe the philosophy is underpaying customer is better than a non paying one

coylemj

Uriel. wrote: »

Realistically, I'd imagine a high percentage of evaders/fraudsters will not be punished in any recognisable way."too poor" / "no economic means" to cough up. Until we start attaching sanctions to welfare payments or tax credits it's not going to make much difference.

Kicking them off the bus would be a start. There's far too many able-bodied people waving free passes at drivers these days, a lot of them travelling no more than a couple of stops.

I was waiting at the stop at UCD one day when a smartly-dressed guy in his twenties touched me up for 50c to make his bus fare. Assuming he was a poor student, I gave it to him and we boarded the bus together. I went to the machine to swipe my card while he stood by the driver, I assumed to pay the fare in cash. Instead he asked the driver a question, seemingly as a delaying tactic in the hope that I'd bugger off but as there was a fault with the reader, I had to stand there for longer than normal making several attempts to get the machine to read the card at which stage I noticed that he was not paying a cash fare and in fact had a travel pass in his hand! Not content with travelling for free, he was touching up other passengers for money to pay his fare and doing his best to conceal the free pass from them when he boarded the bus in case they asked for their money back!

Banjoxed

Morf wrote: »

Incorporating a national identity card to allow passport-less transit around the EU would make sense with all this going on but I doubt it'll happen.

I'll keep that in the crack of my arse if that's introduced.

ronn

I'll believe it when I see them checking buses,

foggy_lad

Uriel. wrote: »

Don't know to be honest. Maybe the philosophy is underpaying customer is better than a non paying one

As far as any transport staff are concerned though the fare is paid for anyone presenting a free travel pass or other single use travel pass issued by a community welfare officer. To call them non-paying passengers or to imply that those availing of free travel are somehow defrauding the transport companies or to single them out as a group for special attention is just wrong.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is there that much fare evasion by free travel pass holders compared to those who travel farther than their ticket allows or those who use child or student tickets which they are not entitled to?

I find it odd that such strong emphasis is placed on DSP travel pass holders when the majority of fare evasion is perpetrated by normal cash and seasonal ticket holders.

Nothing odd about it at all Foggy.

The Child/Student issue is well under control now following the enabling of Student Leapcard and the migration of the Student Rambler Range onto it.

The FTS review has been ongoing now since just before the 2010 freeze of the DSP Free Travel Scheme budget.

What begun initially as a half hearted internal "review" of elements of the FTS,developed,almost by accident,into an excercise on a far broader scale.

For anybody following the statistics since 2010,the financials have been continually worsening as the DSP continued to add ever more "Qualifying" persons to its scheme without allocating any further monies to pay for the services.

It's no longer about a perception of Fare Evasion amongst "classes" of ticket holder.
That comparison was indeed investigated and assesed as to historic,and potential negative revenue streaming,on both existing and future operational models,but with very rapid,positive results,coming from Leapcard migration,it became apparent that the most effective and efficient solution was through technology.

Having taken all of these scenarios into account,the Joint Review Groups recommendations appear to be focusing on accelerating the complete re-structuring of the FTS.

What was initially outlined as a lengthy process,now appears to have been substantially ramped up,with Public Transport Operators (Private & State) allocating additional resources to checking and ongoing monitoring,but more importantly,a significant shift in DSP attitude involving real-time support including Out-Of-Office Hours and multi-disciplinary teams deployed with the intention of detecting and withdrawing invalid or forged documents.

The upside of this renewed activity may,if successful,allow the DSP to facilitate newer routes,such as the Aircoach Cork Express,to finally enter the scheme and offer it's benefits to a somewhat reduced number of genuine recipients.

The alternative option,always attractive to a Politician,was to do Nothing...maintain the infamous "Status Quo"..but the situation had worsened to the extent that such option was no longer viable.

Mark1990

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's the first public signs that significant change is now being accellerated.

However,it's planned as quite a protracted collection of events,with a far higher level of on-bus checking and later,ID validation being the first visible elements.

As the DSP's move to chipped cards also accelerates,it adds the newly collated ID Data to the DSP's own Database,which will eventually lead to on-the-spot ID verification without the need to actually question people as to their status.

This is bolstered by the fact that the DSP Cards security protocol is to the SAFE1 standard,on a par with new Driving Licences and Driver Qualification Cards.

At the end of the process the DSP/RSA and Revenue Commissioners will each have a set of specific ID databases capable of interacting with,and through each other.

We are now,at last,moving from careering blindly along with quite possibly THE most forgeable Free Travel Document in Europe,to having one of the MOST advanced Identity Verifcation infrastructures in Europe...all good news IMO,but one which is almost immediately going to lead to quite a degree of displeasure and ill-feeling as individuals of long standing are finally asked to pay a Fare :eek: :eek: :eek:

Is this an actual problem outside your own head? Who fakes these documents? The idea is laughable but for the fact people will believe it!

cdebru

Mark1990 wrote: »

Is this an actual problem outside your own head? Who fakes these documents? The idea is laughable but for the fact people will believe it!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/down-on-his-luck-graphic-designer-admits-forging-fake-travel-passes-29640634.html

Yeah laughable

AlekSmart

Mark1990 wrote: »

Is this an actual problem outside your own head? Who fakes these documents? The idea is laughable but for the fact people will believe it!

It's not a problem in my head at all....I just observe and roll my eyes...:) (But you are correct Mark1990,it IS laughable for sure )

However,as the linked story glosses over the most important bit,I'll underline it for posterity....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/down-on-his-luck-graphic-designer-admits-forging-fake-travel-passes-29640634.html

He also made full admissions when arrested and told gardai that someone had asked him if he could make the fake travel passes for them.


Over the past number of years,the usual approach has been to avoid Court Proceedings,and instead to attempt,as far as possible to dismantle the manufacturing and distribution processes for DSP documents.

However,with the arrival of cheap,easily portable and more importantly High Quality copy/printing equipment,the situation was becoming rapidly untenable.

As of 2012,in a country of c.3.5 Million Adults,748,000 of them were in possession of a legally held Free Travel Document.

Just to clarify,and to absolve my head from any further blame,those figures are from the DSP 2012 Statistical Report.

For anybody interested in watching the ongoing process of re-establishing some form of accountable control,they could still make their way today,to either Heuston,Connolly,Tara Street,Westland Row Stations today between 10.00-17.00.

hfallada

I find it embarrassing how nearly all state issued IDs in Ireland are so simple to forge. How drivers licenses would still be a piece of card board with practically no security features for years into the future, if it wasnt for the EU standardising drivers licenses. Finally travel passes arent just another piece of paper ID.

The fine is too little for fare evasion. Its only €100 which is a recent increase from €50. In places like Berlin the fine is €500 and because of that people pay for tickets. There is no barriers getting onto trains or buses. Its up to you to pay for your ticket. But I seen several inspectors actually enforcing the fines in one weekend. I have seen 3 bus inspectors even through I have used the bus daily for 9 years.

Morf

hfallada wrote: »

I find it embarrassing how nearly all state issued IDs in Ireland are so simple to forge. How drivers licenses would still be a piece of card board with practically no security features for years into the future, if it wasnt for the EU standardising drivers licenses. Finally travel passes arent just another piece of paper ID.

The fine is too little for fare evasion. Its only €100 which is a recent increase from €50. In places like Berlin the fine is €500 and because of that people pay for tickets. There is no barriers getting onto trains or buses. Its up to you to pay for your ticket. But I seen several inspectors actually enforcing the fines in one weekend. I have seen 3 bus inspectors even through I have used the bus daily for 9 years.

Germany has a much different culture where not being socially conscientious is really really frowned up. Using a pedestrian crossing when it isn't green gets your filthy looks at best. Dropping litter is likely to have you publicly harangued.

Can you imagine the meltdown if people who "every other time except this" "wrong trousers/coat" etc. etc. are hit with a €500 fine?

Irish aren't very socially conscientious as seen by voting for politicians more after being convicted of fraud/corruption rather than less so I doubt raising fines 500% would go down well.

Mrs OBumble

Morf wrote: »

Irish aren't very socially conscientious as seen by voting for politicians more after being convicted of fraud/corruption rather than less so I doubt raising fines 500% would go down well.

Are you seriously saying that Irish people are fundamentally amoral, so laws and penalties should not be attempted here? Really? Do you not see a certain ever-decreasing circle in that argument, with can only end with complete anarchy?

Sir Gallagher

It would also be nice if they could somehow stop giving bus passes to heroin abusers. Nothing worse than having to pay almost 3 euro for a lift up the road while junkies hop and and off at their leisure. It's actually comical when you think about it.

Morf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that Irish people are fundamentally amoral, so laws and penalties should not be attempted here? Really? Do you not see a certain ever-decreasing circle in that argument, with can only end with complete anarchy?

1. No. I'm saying a €500 penalty wouldn't even be attempted.

2. I never suggested the course of this argument to absurdity so no.

I am happy for smart public services cards including FTP is applicable.

I am against rush hour restrictions unless the main hospitals arrange clinics to facilitate these restrictions.

I am against large-scale monitoring of FTP usage unless in certain cases the data is very abnormal.

I'd favour an option national ID card similar to those used widely in Europe without the necessity to carry at all times.

cbreeze

I was on a 33x last year when inspectors got on. They discovered quite a few people travelling on the wrong type of ticket, including a young woman who was using her father's employee travel pass for irish rail!

People who cheat the bus company are mugging their communities.

AlekSmart

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that Irish people are fundamentally amoral, so laws and penalties should not be attempted here? Really? Do you not see a certain ever-decreasing circle in that argument, with can only end with complete anarchy?

Thats actually quite an interesting concept Mrs O'B ,but probably way O/T here....however I would suggest that the outward signs of such precesses tend to be initially observed in mass gatherings,as oft seen on Public Transport,and some indications are becoming worryingly visible on a regular basis on our PT elements.

Morf's issue,as I understand it,is why (LOUDLY) publicise items such as "Smokers can be fined up to €3,000 :eek: " when,AFAIAA, no such Fine has EVER been imposed by the courts on a convicted person.

If the Courts will not Walk the walk,then we should not be attempting to Talk the talk,as continuing to do so effectively devalues the entire process.

_Kaiser_

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that Irish people are fundamentally amoral, so laws and penalties should not be attempted here? Really? Do you not see a certain ever-decreasing circle in that argument, with can only end with complete anarchy?

Very O/T but this isn't as far-fetched as you might think. "We" love the cute hoor, and lament/sympathise when someone is (rarely) pulled up on their stroke - "sure haven't they little to be doing?".

Scandals like the penalty point debacle, Anglo etc are merely symptoms of this fundamental flaw in the national psyche. It's also why we end up with the incompetent, unqualified gombeens that we call TD's and why everything in the country runs on the "it depends who you get/know" principle.

With such a mentality, is it any wonder you'll get people trying to pull a fast one with their bus fares

Thargor

What if a bus inspector finds someone and the fare dodger just tells them to fcuk off and walks away like the LUAS documentary the other night? Can DB inspectors actually restrain someone?

AlekSmart

Thargor wrote: »

What if a bus inspector finds someone and the fare dodger just tells them to fcuk off and walks away like the LUAS documentary the other night? Can DB inspectors actually restrain someone?

Simple answer...Yes.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/about-us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Enforcement-Procedures/

58 (c) Where any such person refuses or fails to comply with a request under paragraph (a) or (b) of this Bye-Law or following such request such person gives a name and address which the authorised person has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading, such person may be detained by the authorised person until the arrival of a member of the Garda Síochána.

Dublin Bus Bye-Laws 1996...a surprisingly robust piece of work

Thargor

Good to hear thanks, wasn't expecting that.

bumper234

Inspectors can make a "citizens" arrest to detain someone the same as any citizen can do. Hopefully they start to take robust action would be nice to see public transport cleaned up at long last.

AlekSmart

bumper234 wrote: »

Inspectors can make a "citizens" arrest to detain someone the same as any citizen can do. Hopefully they start to take robust action would be nice to see public transport cleaned up at long last.

The mechanism by which a DB "Authorized Person" can effect an arrest is somewhat more robust than the,oft quoted but little understood,"Citizens Arrest" procedure.

Suffice to say,any ordinary individual,attempting to arrest somebody for a breach of the DB Bye-Laws would be embarking on a dangerous course of action....;)

adrag

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

It would also be nice if they could somehow stop giving bus passes to heroin abusers. Nothing worse than having to pay almost 3 euro for a lift up the road while junkies hop and and off at their leisure. It's actually comical when you think about it.

The reason that addicts have travel passes is because a lot of them have contracted hep c or hiv sadly.This then qualifies them to disabity benefit which includes medical card,travel pass,plus they never have to even sign on.so if your paid into the bank you wouldnt even have to be in the country.
Im not saying wheter its right or wrong,just stating fact

AlekSmart

adrag wrote: »

The reason that addicts have travel passes is because a lot of them have contracted hep c or hiv sadly.This then qualifies them to disabity benefit which includes medical card,travel pass,plus they never have to even sign on.so if your paid into the bank you wouldnt even have to be in the country.
Im not saying wheter its right or wrong,just stating fact

It is evidence to the fact that Ireland is a progressive,enlightened State which recognises the hardships brought on by such diseases,and attempts to lessen the burden imposed on sufferers by reducing unnecessary interaction with officialdom,which can often prove stressful for the unfortunate sufferers.....Many people recognise this system for what it is....others however,may continue to think it just, Fantastic

SHOVELLER

The reason junkies and winos get free travel passes is at the discretion of the relevant minister of social welfare. No minister will ever grasp the nettle and ban these vermin from getting passes.

As regards fare evaders it just shows what a joke Dublin Bus' fare system is. How many different fares are there? In countries with proper transport infrastructures there are 2 fares. One adult and one child. And it doesnt matter where you are going. This would cut down on this rubbish of the driver asking where are you are going etc. And rule out having fare inspectors in this day and age which is a joke. And no they wouldnt necessarily lose their jobs as they could be deployed.

Also there are plenty who just chuck change into the machine and who knows if it is the right fare. How hard can it be for them to install machines that count the exact change. If Dublin Bus are losing money it is entirely their own fault.

miller50841

Hopefully if they do start clamping down it's these sort's of scum that are taken off our public transport system.Look at link.....

I was shocked at how everybody just sat there and didn't even move downstairs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpSZ1zu3umU