Fire Safety Purpose group classification

gman2k

I pose a question/ scenario,
An individual house is rented by a limited company for the purposes of having it as a place of residence for individuals with intellectual disabilities (whom are under the care of the limited company). There is no clear defined tenancy agreement between the individuals and the limited company.
The limited company employs staff, who work in these houses to support the individuals. The houses become defacto places of work for these staff. Most staff are employed on permanent/ temporary contracts, but there are also agency staff, or relief staff to cover absences etc.
Many of these staff are employed to remain on the premises overnight, both on awake and asleep duty.

What is the viewpoint of fire authorities in regards to these houses considering the nature of the care of the residents and that the houses are also places of work.
What Part B purpose group do they fall under.
Do these houses need fire safety certificates?
Does anyone have any knowledge of interaction with HIQA with regards to the registration process, and in particular to fire safety declarations. Likewise any interaction with Fire authorities.
I would appreciate some help/ input - either here on thread if mods allow, or via PM.
Regards
Gman2k

sydthebeat

maybe not answering your question directly but....

i was involved in a housing project which was a renovation and extensive extension to a dwelling which was funded by a private company who work with 'troubled youths' (contracted to HSE). Same situation, contracted staff staying overnight etc

I was informed by this company that they had HSE documentation which stated that these type of dwellings do not require Fire Safety Certificates. I took them at their word as the onus was on them to comply with regs.

So perhaps ask this limited company if they too have similar documentation?
I would think that a premises for intellectually disable clients would have fairly strict HSE parameters prescribed.

otherwise a letter to your local FSO will answer your query.

gman2k

I've spoken to a couple of fire consultants, and their consensus is that FSOs are taking a more regulated view on these premises i.e. that they are not dwellings and a FSC is needed.
6year rule and pre92 can confuse some people though.
My reading of it is that with Hiqa registration now mandatory, they demand a fire safety declaration which is to be signed by a competent person.
There will be a lot of work available for competent persons who could carve out a niche in this sector.
Every dwelling that I know of personally would not comply with Part B requirements. There is an excellent resource document available via the UK NHS sector that is specific about this sector, and I'm informed that FSOs are using that as a go-to guide for compliance now. On mobile so can't link to it now....
I'd welcome any other input!

gman2k

I believe HTM88 is the relevant UK document.

richban

I'm invovled in a similar situation - again involved with HIQA registration.

My Fire Consultant has found a document 'Guide to Fire Precautions in Community-Based Residences for Mentally Handicapped or Mentally Ill People’ - (Dept. of Environment - November, 1987)' that is referenced in Part B, although its not in general circulation anymore - I'd love a PDF copy if you do happen to get one. He says that a house with up to 7 clients will not need any FSC, even a regularisation FSC if the Chief Fire Officer accepts the content of the 1987 document. As yet we're awaiting this agreement from the fire officer. The implication is that if its not accepted, a FSC will defo be required.

In planning terms, we're viewing these as normal houses as they can revert to being 'normal' houses without planning permission, if the agency involves were to sell them. Whereas if the house is located on a campus/ hospital grounds, its more residential (institutional) and not a normal house and domestic exemptions would therefore not apply.

Hope this helps.

gman2k

Thanks Richban.
I've spoken to a planner, and these dwellings are exempt from change of use planning requirements if:
(f) from use as a house, to use as a residence for persons with an intellectual or physical disability or mental illness and persons providing care for such persons.

The number of persons with an intellectual or physical disability or a mental illness living in any such residence shall not exceed 6 and the number of resident carers shall not exceed 2.
(Class 14 Section F)

I would like to get a concrete understanding of a Fire Safety Officers understanding of an exempted dwelling as listed under 14/f, and their requirements - i.e. are they looking for HTM88 guidance.
My understanding is that a lot of FSOs are now looking for compliance with HTM88 instead of the older Irish document.

It's my understanding that the Northern Ireland version of HIQA which is RQIA is very much into HTM88, and in particular are interested in Fire Safety assessments, and the competency of the competent person who signs off on the Fire Safety declaration.
This is all following the Rosepark disaster and the subsequent inquiry into same and published by the Scottish Courts - a letter of introduction here from the NHS
Report itself here.

gman2k

richban wrote: »

...a document 'Guide to Fire Precautions in Community-Based Residences for Mentally Handicapped or Mentally Ill People’ - (Dept. of Environment - November, 1987)' ...

I've spoken to a couple of Fire Officers, and whilst they were aware of the document you quoted, they said it is now outdated and HTM88 is the one they would use, and look for compliance with.

Regarding the need for an actual FSC being needed, there is still a grey area on the purpose group classification, but the more forward looking FOs are NOT viewing them as dwellings only.
They say as the building is a place of work, it should comply with requirements of Part B, and many of their colleagues would insist on HTM88.
Items such as 30min FR of protected routes, FD30s doors on these routes, emergency lighting, escape signage and thumb-turn operated locks on final exits are a minimum. They will also look closely at fire alarm installations, travel distances, training and records and management.

sydthebeat

I have a similar case coming up gman2k where the HSE want a section 5 declaration from the local authority

how did your situation unfold?
was planning exemption declared?
did FSO insist on compliance with HTM88?