EA: "We've asked for too much time, too much skill, too much money"

nesf

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-25-ea-weve-asked-for-too-much-time-too-much-skill-too-much-money

See kids, if you're going to troll don't make a half assed attempt, do it bloody properly! (Obvious PC-Gamer Master Race plant here)

nesf

Also 90 minutes? Can you tell EA didn't publish Civilisation or XCOM?

ShadowHearth

According to EA research, mobile games hold the attention for 90 seconds and PC games for 90 minutes, but consoles can keep engagement for two hours at a time.

Corholio

The day I start taking EA's advice on the state of gaming will be a very sad one indeed. A cold hellish like one.

LOL at the criticism of Miyamoto too.

abbir

We're in Gen 4 so? Gaming started with Playstation......I know they've said it before but everytime I read it from EA I just shake my head. Surely we're in Gen3, it all started with Xbox.

Shiminay

The disconnect between the management of this company and the expectations of its customers is staggering at times.

I'd love to know what customers they talk to about things they do (if any) because I wanna kick these "customers" in the head for steering them so wrong.

Sarky

The last PC game that managed to hold my attention for 90 minutes was Super Hexagon, and that's mostly because after 90 whole minutes of Super Hexagon I needed to give my aching hands a rest.

EA are awfully confusing when they com out with things like this. Where are they getting these numbers from? Are there really gamers that fit these claims or are they just making sh*t up?

nesf

Sarky wrote: »

The last PC game that managed to hold my attention for 90 minutes was Super Hexagon, and that's mostly because after 90 whole minutes of Super Hexagon I needed to give my aching hands a rest.

EA are awfully confusing when they com out with things like this. Where are they getting these numbers from? Are there really gamers that fit these claims or are they just making sh*t up?

Sims.

CiDeRmAn

What a load of crap.
So, in essence, what gamers want according to EA are cheap, simple games that can run on any device, so we are looking at the proliferation of games from app stores.
Things that are cheap to make, will turn an easy profit for the company, before churning out the next one.
What a frakking nightmare.

I find it hard to reconcile that EA with the EA that brought use Syndicate, Magic Carpet, Road Rash, Need for Speed and Mass Effect 2.

Though it's exactly what I'd expect from a developer of annual update fodder like Fifa or lowest common denominator muck like Dead Space 3.

Sarky

Whenever EA speak I'm reminded of how much I miss Bullfrog.

Pushtrak

He talks about Miyamato and Nintendo, but then he says Gen 4? What?

Jet Black

According to EA research, mobile games hold the attention for 90 seconds and PC games for 90 minutes, but consoles can keep engagement for two hours at a time.

I would say that pretty accurate. In terms of EA games on each format aright.
I wouldn't bother with EAs mobile games because of micro transactions and when I did it was just click a couple of things, come back the next day.
When I played on console EA had the big titles (COD/BF/FIFA) big releases every year and they got most of my attention.
Since I got a PC I would say I play very few EA games if any. Before Titanfall the last time I logged into origin was June. There's too much choice on PC to have to put up with EAs BS.

Grumpypants

I would say 90 mins is about right. It is rare I would play for longer without getting up going for a pee, getting a cup of tea, checking emails or facebook etc etc.

Games of BF4 are about 30 mins long, something like Day Z i would play for longer. lets say a 2 1/2 hour session on day Z followed by 1 game of BF4 still equals a 90min average.

Then there are days when I will put on a game and quit after 5 mins.

Robert ninja

EA can't hold my attention for one minute let alone 90. I don't care what they do anymore, they release nothing but absolute bullcrap imo. Much better games and companies to pay attention to.

gizmo

Shiminay wrote: »

The disconnect between the management of this company and the expectations of its customers is staggering at times.

I'd love to know what customers they talk to about things they do (if any) because I wanna kick these "customers" in the head for steering them so wrong.

They'll be pulling metrics from their games across multiple platforms, it's not like they're being generated out of thin air. On that basis, one imagines the PC figures will be diluted with input from their mainstream titles like The Sims and Popcaps output.

Speaking of kicking though, make sure and save some energy for the 1.4 million plus people who have already shelled out for Battlefield 4 Premium. And on that note...

I'm finding it strange that people haven't even mentioned the more positive notes from the keynote though. You know, the importance placed of user generated content in the current/next generation? There's been endless bitching about how larger publishers like EA have moved away from it so as to concentrate on high-margin content which they can sell so one would have thought this kind of change would be welcomed?

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

I'm finding it strange that people haven't even mentioned the more positive notes from the keynote though. You know, the importance placed of user generated content in the current/next generation? There's been endless bitching about how larger publishers like EA have moved away from it so as to concentrate on high-margin content which they can sell so one would have thought this kind of change would be welcomed?

It's being dressed up as a new thing. Over ten years ago we had far more user generated than developer made content in games like Sims and Sim City. The Total War series has always attracted a big modding community and others.

What happened recently was EA gave the two fingers to communities like these and tried to nickle and dime it with DLC crap. The community didn't go away or suddenly appear out of the mists on mobile platforms it's been part of the PC gaming scene as long as I've been a gamer (20+ years), it's that EA decided to try and ignore it.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

It's being dressed up as a new thing. Over ten years ago we had far more user generated than developer made content in games like Sims and Sim City. The Total War series has always attracted a big modding community and others.

What happened recently was EA gave the two fingers to communities like these and tried to nickle and dime it with DLC crap. The community didn't go away or suddenly appear out of the mists on mobile platforms it's been part of the PC gaming scene as long as I've been a gamer (20+ years), it's that EA decided to try and ignore it.

I don't think the shift away from user generated content is particularly recent though and certainly not confined to EA. The complexity, whether it's in their development, maintenance or licencing, of modern engines has meant that it simply wasn't feasible for studios to release them to the wider public. Even those which have seen tool sets released for them have usually come well after the launch of the games they're linked to.

Again though, that doesn't change the fact that Hilleman is referring to a return to systems wherein user-generated content is again something they'll encourage. If we're going to sit here and rip the article to shreds then we may as well mention the positive things said too.

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

I don't think the shift away from user generated content is particularly recent though and certainly not confined to EA. The complexity, whether it's in their development, maintenance or licencing, of modern engines has meant that it simply wasn't feasible for studios to release them to the wider public. Even those which have seen tool sets released for them have usually come well after the launch of the games they're linked to.

Again though, that doesn't change the fact that Hilleman is referring to a return to systems wherein user-generated content is again something they'll encourage. If we're going to sit here and rip the article to shreds then we may as well mention the positive things said too.

Really you didn't address my points at all there, you merely brushed them aside as "not only EA" and "any sunshine on a rainy day." I'm sorry, the absolute lack of deep modding support in Sim City is criminal. We have other companies opening up far more complex games (e.g. Total War, Civ) to modding at a depth that EA hasn't even remotely hinted at because it removes DLC possibilities. Let me be clear, I'm really not against DLC, I buy quite a lot of it if I like a game. I'm just against this cynical dressing up of old as new whilst trying to pretend you didn't suppress the old for monetary gain in the first place. Have a look at how modding was severely cut back in the Sims for cosmetic stuff that doesn't require tinkering with the engine or game logic if you don't believe me.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

Really you didn't address my points at all there, you merely brushed them aside as "not only EA" and "any sunshine on a rainy day." I'm sorry, the absolute lack of deep modding support in Sim City is criminal. We have other companies opening up far more complex games (e.g. Total War, Civ) to modding at a depth that EA hasn't even remotely hinted at because it removes DLC possibilities. Let me be clear, I'm really not against DLC, I buy quite a lot of it if I like a game. I'm just against this cynical dressing up of old as new whilst trying to pretend you didn't suppress the old for monetary gain in the first place. Have a look at how modding was severely cut back in the Sims for cosmetic stuff that doesn't require tinkering with the engine or game logic if you don't believe me.

To be honest I wasn't sure exactly what you meant in your reply by "it" being dressed up as a new thing so I focused on the tool side of things and why there was a move away from releasing them over the last number of years. On that topic, to ignore the reasoning I listed below and focus solely on the introduction of DLC as the cause of this is taking an overly simplistic view of the situation imo. Does it happen in some cases? I don't doubt it for one second. The Sims is probably a great example in fact. But that doesn't mean it's the reason for all or even most of them.

On the subject of mod support in current games, well the problem with referencing SimCity et al in this particular context is that the keynote we're talking about was back in September, so I think it's safe to assume the titles he's referring to which will focus more on user generated content haven't been released yet. It's this possible move I'm suggesting is a worthy positive talking point rather than just another discussion of how ****ed many of their current games are.

EDIT: As an aside, the reason I made a point of mentioning that EA weren't the only ones who have moved away from this kind of mod support/user generated content/tools provisioning is because this is the first thing I thought of. Possibly one of my favourite cover discs from back in the day

CatInABox

Sarky wrote: »

Whenever EA speak I'm reminded of how much I miss Bullfrog.

Yeah, I despaired at the recent Syndicate reboot, and I was hoping that they'd do a proper remake at some stage, but after the recent travesty that was Dungeon Keeper, I realise that some things are best left in the past.

Potential-Monke

PC gamers attention is only held for 90 minutes? Tell that to the marathon 14 hour session i just had!

Vicxas

Potential-Monke wrote: »

PC gamers attention is only held for 90 minutes? Tell that to the marathon 14 hour session i just had!

If they think that then I shudder to think what they'd make of my Warcraft or X-Com play times

Skatedude

I dont get the 90 mins for pc gamers. i'm usually on my pc for 5 or 6 hours when i'm gaming and i'm considered a lightweight by most of my friends that play. but i rarely spend more then an hour or so on any of my consoles

sarumite

I usually do shorter gameplay on console than on PC. A lot of my PC gaming is more strategy/sim based or large open world RPG's. These are usually slow burns that require more time than playing an action adventure game on a console. I think 90 minutes is my console limit, PC time can stretch to way too many hours.

Potatoeman

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, I despaired at the recent Syndicate reboot, and I was hoping that they'd do a proper remake at some stage, but after the recent travesty that was Dungeon Keeper, I realise that some things are best left in the past.

No, they could have made a good mobile game out of that but were so greedy with the microtransactions it was unplayable. I didnt consider getting dead space 3 for the same reason. They think locking content and charging for it is a good idea.
There is a good market for mobile games if you get the balance right.

Nody

Skatedude wrote: »

I dont get the 90 mins for pc gamers. i'm usually on my pc for 5 or 6 hours when i'm gaming and i'm considered a lightweight by most of my friends that play. but i rarely spend more then an hour or so on any of my consoles

90 min makes sense if you limit yourself to recent EA games (i.e. Dead Space 3, Fifa, BF etc.) and not the full PC market...

Mr Freeze

Shiminay wrote: »

I'd love to know what customers they talk to about things they do (if any) because I wanna kick these "customers" in the head for steering them so wrong.

Same here, especially the people that found Dead Space too scary, resulting in 2 and 3 being action games.

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

To be honest I wasn't sure exactly what you meant in your reply by "it" being dressed up as a new thing so I focused on the tool side of things and why there was a move away from releasing them over the last number of years. On that topic, to ignore the reasoning I listed below and focus solely on the introduction of DLC as the cause of this is taking an overly simplistic view of the situation imo. Does it happen in some cases? I don't doubt it for one second. The Sims is probably a great example in fact. But that doesn't mean it's the reason for all or even most of them.

On the subject of mod support in current games, well the problem with referencing SimCity et al in this particular context is that the keynote we're talking about was back in September, so I think it's safe to assume the titles he's referring to which will focus more on user generated content haven't been released yet. It's this possible move I'm suggesting is a worthy positive talking point rather than just another discussion of how ****ed many of their current games are.

EDIT: As an aside, the reason I made a point of mentioning that EA weren't the only ones who have moved away from this kind of mod support/user generated content/tools provisioning is because this is the first thing I thought of. Possibly one of my favourite cover discs from back in the day

I'm not focusing solely on DLC as a cause I'm griping over instances where it is the cause.

User made content can cause problems in multiplayer games (balance), MMOs (Blizzard have said they wouldn't have allowed the level of customisation that they did if they knew what would happen) and certain strategy games (again, difficulty and balance). Etc. There are many genuine reasons for restricting user-made content. The problem I have with EA and some of the other big developers is that they restricted it where profit was the only possible motive. In this case saying "more user-generated content" translates either as stopping doing the latter (which is good but it's good in the "I've stopped keying cars on the way home" sense of good) or just the giving us the same as was common before EA, etc started restricting mods just because they didn't want to provide modding tools (it's extra developer time and lengthens the game's lifecycle with little benefit to EA's profit margin).

Taylor365

I don't buy EA published games because they're a$$hats.

FACT.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

I'm not focusing solely on DLC as a cause I'm griping over instances where it is the cause.

User made content can cause problems in multiplayer games (balance), MMOs (Blizzard have said they wouldn't have allowed the level of customisation that they did if they knew what would happen) and certain strategy games (again, difficulty and balance). Etc. There are many genuine reasons for restricting user-made content. The problem I have with EA and some of the other big developers is that they restricted it where profit was the only possible motive. In this case saying "more user-generated content" translates either as stopping doing the latter (which is good but it's good in the "I've stopped keying cars on the way home" sense of good) or just the giving us the same as was common before EA, etc started restricting mods just because they didn't want to provide modding tools (it's extra developer time and lengthens the game's lifecycle with little benefit to EA's profit margin).

As a matter of interest, if one was to leave SimCity out of the equation on the basis that it's fundamentally ****ed design-wise for a different reason and take The Sims as an example of a game whose (even higher level) mod tools were removed so as to allow them to sell additional content, what other EA published games do you think should feature mod support but don't?

Potatoeman

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Same here, especially the people that found Dead Space too scary, resulting in 2 and 3 being action games.

I dont think this is only EA that do this. Dumbing down games for mass market appeal seems to be rampant.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

damn right, look at bioshock. they took system shock 2 and turned it into a dumbed down console game

Mr Freeze

Potatoeman wrote: »

I dont think this is only EA that do this. Dumbing down games for mass market appeal seems to be rampant.

Well the recent 3 examples I can think of are all EA.

Dragon Age, Mass Effect and Dead Space, Mass Effect 3 being the worst example of all, so dumbed down compared to where it started.

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

As a matter of interest, if one was to leave SimCity out of the equation on the basis that it's fundamentally ****ed design-wise for a different reason and take The Sims as an example of a game whose (even higher level) mod tools were removed so as to allow them to sell additional content, what other EA published games do you think should feature mod support but don't?

Well, Sim City 4 was ****ed design wise too but the community patched it into a really good game (and the patches weren't just people messing around with XML files). One can argue that one reason for doing it in the Sims was that people were recreating branded products in it in the original Sims and EA got some flak for this (as well as the nade Sims mod :P).

Off hand:

Mass Effect 3 modding is very limited compared to what you could do in Dragon Age: Origins never mind the free for all that is Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind. With RPG games in general, opening up the game and the engine to modders can provide some amazing potential for the community. Strategy games are similar, though EA has stopped making those.

Dead Space 3 being opened up to modders could be quite interesting (think complete remakes using the engine and character models). Arma II sold a little better than Arma I due to how open it was to modders.

I'll grant you most of what EA sells has limited modding potential (e.g. there's not a whole lot you could do with FIFA other than tweak things to perhaps make it more realistic/improve AI slightly etc).

Shiminay

The Frostbite engine that they're using for everything now has no modding tools and never will have (according to a senior DICE producer I spoke to a couple of years ago) as they took the approach to program each map rather than just build it and drop entities and actors into the world like most other games would do.

So if we're to see some sort of change in this, then some people in DICE are going to be very busy.

gizmo

nesf wrote: »

Well, Sim City 4 was ****ed design wise too but the community patched it into a really good game (and the patches weren't just people messing around with XML files). One can argue that one reason for doing it in the Sims was that people were recreating branded products in it in the original Sims and EA got some flak for this (as well as the nade Sims mod :P).

With SimCity I meant the online-centric design of the game. Apart from all of the other problems it introduced, it also meant that there was always going to be limited deep modding potential. One of the many sad things about the game compared to its predecessors.

I'm unfamiliar with the later entries in The Sims but I assume the branded items thing only became an issue because you can trade these items to other games online?

nesf wrote: »

Mass Effect 3 modding is very limited compared to what you could do in Dragon Age: Origins never mind the free for all that is Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind. With RPG games in general, opening up the game and the engine to modders can provide some amazing potential for the community. Strategy games are similar, though EA has stopped making those.

Funnily enough this was the first one that came to mind too, especially since DA has its own Toolset. The reasoning is perhaps a little clearer when you realise that DA:O is based on Biowares own tech (an evolution of the tech used in NVN) rather than the Mass Effect games which are built via Unreal Engine and would have their own proprietary toolchain.

What will be interesting to see is if Inquisition, which is now based on Frostbite3, ships with something approaching a DA equivalent toolset.

nesf wrote: »

Dead Space 3 being opened up to modders could be quite interesting (think complete remakes using the engine and character models). Arma II sold a little better than Arma I due to how open it was to modders.

Dead Space falls into the category of "it'd be nice to have mod tools" though, as opposed to "they didn't ship them so they could hawk DLC at us". Mirrors Edge would also fall into this category for instance. Which brings us to...

nesf wrote: »

I'll grant you most of what EA sells has limited modding potential (e.g. there's not a whole lot you could do with FIFA other than tweak things to perhaps make it more realistic/improve AI slightly etc).

And this is kind of what I was getting at. You wouldn't really expect most of their games to actually ship with mod tools, yet they've acquired this reputation, even before the latest SimCity, as a company who purposefully withhold them so as to "force" DLC on gamers. It's because of this that I'd greet a move towards titles with more focus on user-generated content with optimism at least, they simply haven't done it much before and I'm interested to see what they can do. Dangerously optimistic? Probably.

Shiminay wrote: »

The Frostbite engine that they're using for everything now has no modding tools and never will have (according to a senior DICE producer I spoke to a couple of years ago) as they took the approach to program each map rather than just build it and drop entities and actors into the world like most other games would do.

So if we're to see some sort of change in this, then some people in DICE are going to be very busy.

That's not really true, they've shown off FrostEd in some behind the scenes footage previously. It certainly exists but judging by some of the comments from their senior tech guys, the pipeline itself is immensely complicated.

nesf

gizmo wrote: »

And this is kind of what I was getting at. You wouldn't really expect most of their games to actually ship with mod tools, yet they've acquired this reputation, even before the latest SimCity, as a company who purposefully withhold them so as to "force" DLC on gamers. It's because of this that I'd greet a move towards titles with more focus on user-generated content with optimism at least, they simply haven't done it much before and I'm interested to see what they can do. Dangerously optimistic? Probably.

I don't think this works to be honest because while sure mods for BF4 wouldn't be too interesting, some of the omissions in recent years are glaring. No mod tools in RPGs and games like Sim City and Sims are going pretty heavily against the grain. I agree most of EA's output isn't affected by this but I'm not sure that's a plus to be honest!!

Captain Chaos

abbir wrote: »

We're in Gen 4 so? Gaming started with Playstation......I know they've said it before but everytime I read it from EA I just shake my head. Surely we're in Gen3, it all started with Xbox.

We're in Gen 8 with the PS4 and X1. Gaming started well before the PS1.

Reekwind

Nody wrote: »

90 min makes sense if you limit yourself to recent EA games (i.e. Dead Space 3, Fifa, BF etc.) and not the full PC market...

It makes sense when you consider it as an average. I've put almost 800 hrs into some games (hello Football Manager 2012) but only glanced as some Steam sale purchases

nesf

Reekwind wrote: »

It makes sense when you consider it as an average. I've put almost 800 hrs into some games (hello Football Manager 2012) but only glanced as some Steam sale purchases

It's gaming time though surely? I imagine the number is pulled down by a large number of Steam accounts basically just to run indie games on low end machines and don't see too heavy use. Or Sims installs.

Grumpypants

nesf wrote: »

It's gaming time though surely? I imagine the number is pulled down by a large number of Steam accounts basically just to run indie games on low end machines and don't see too heavy use. Or Sims installs.

No the article is about the lenght of time pc gamers on average stay engaged. The vast majority of online games have short run times. Bf4 would be pretty long yet an average big match is still only 30-40 mins.

Lol averages 20-30 mins and a ridiculous amount if games of lol are played daily.

Genghiz Cohen

Grumpypants wrote: »

No the article is about the lenght of time pc gamers on average stay engaged. The vast majority of online games have short run times. Bf4 would be pretty long yet an average big match is still only 30-40 mins.

Lol averages 20-30 mins and a ridiculous amount if games of lol are played daily.

Heh, 1 engagement in DayZ or ArmA can easily last that long.

Only 5 objectives to go after that!

Potatoeman

Im not a fan of dlc. It usually is expensive for what you get unless you get it with the game on sale. Im even struggling to think of any decent ones. I guess old world blues for fallout and blooddragon for Far Cry 3 but that was a standalone.
The Skyrim user content was far better than the dlc too.

abbir

Captain Chaos wrote: »

abbir wrote: »

We're in Gen 4 so? Gaming started with Playstation......I know they've said it before but everytime I read it from EA I just shake my head. Surely we're in Gen3, it all started with Xbox.

We're in Gen 8 with the PS4 and X1. Gaming started well before the PS1.

I was making a joke at EA's use of Gen 4 in their statements Considering I had a Spectrum, I'm well aware it started before the PS1.

Call Me Jimmy

On the comment I think, as a businessman he is obviously correct. The last 5 years has changed the demographics in the industry as a whole like no other time. Developers have to react to this. There is too much money to be made not to re-assess the model!