Racing v Training

thirstywork2

The debate on talent v hard work/effort has come up here a few times.
Not sure this one has been done but looking at some peoples logs they train much better than when it comes down to a race.

I would say I race better than I train,reasons maybe mentally or I don't leave everything in training.This doesn't mean I don't work hard in training but I never get into racing the last few reps anymore(used to when I was younger)

So which are you and what reasons would you say you train better or race better?

pconn062

Good idea for a thread. Up until recently I used to train much better than I ever raced, I could bang out good sessions with recovery time but due to an overall lack of aerobic fitness I could never replicate it in training. However since I increased my mileage last winter my racing performances have improved, down to a better aerobic base meaning I could hold the training paces in races.

buck65

Disclaimer! I am not a fast runner.

But when I race I frequently bring my mile time down by a minute a mile faster than even a tempo run for me. Definitely the adrenaline or the fact that I can just turn it on on race days helps. I race usually 10miles or a half marathon.

Chivito550

If one is performing better in training than on race day then there is something seriously wrong IMO.

TFBubendorfer

I've got a friend whose training times are completely out of my league, I'd probably collapse if I tried his tempo runs or 800s.

Yet our race times are almost identical, all the way from 5k to the marathon and beyond, we are usually just a few seconds apart.

When I once asked him why he doesn't kill me in racing as he does in training he dryly remarked: "Thomas, the simple answer is that I don't like the pain of racing and you don't like the pain of losing. Hopefully I'll learn to endure and you'll learn to accept."

ecoli

I am sensing that this thread could come down to those who either once trained better than they have raced or those who don't realize they are leaving it on the track so in early to buck the trend

Been doing a little soul searching regarding my running the last few weeks and this is one topic which has come up. I used to be terrible for this as can be seen in the early stages of my log and though I have improved I think I am lacking a small bit still. More recently however I don't think that it is down to training too hard but rather under performing in target races (or maybe I am being naive about it). Just looking at my PBs and I think there is a bit of a pattern

3k Steeple PB - First 100 mile week the week before so no pressure to chase PB
3k PB - few drinks with a friend the night before which kinda expected to have an effect so pressure off about chasing PB
HM PB - Stomach issues in target race meant I bombed but came back 3 weeks later and pressure was off.

I think in each of these cases it could have been a confidence issue and even looking in races I have let people that I shouldn't have get away with me despite being in the physical condition to compete.

Funny enough I would have thought training on your own might buck this sort of thoughts but I am wondering whether it actually enables it as I can hide in training to a point (maybe running an uneven split for a rep by mentally giving up in the middle and coming back)

Despite times going in the right direction this would be down to improved fitness but still possibly trails behind capability

(Mainly speculation here and trying to be objective on my own training as if I had the solution it wouldn't be an issue right?)

RacoonQueen

I'd say I train better than I race. Confidence(or probably really overthinking, as I wouldn't necessesarily say I lack confidence in my potential/ability) is my main issue in races - some of my better race performances have come the day after big training sessions or at times where I was going into a race more relaxed with no pressure on myself for different reasons (midlands half, dunboyne 4 mile, nat half 2011, dcm 2011 and a couple of xc races last year...)

Was the complete opposite when I played team sports, was always a crap trainer and good performer on match day.

menoscemo

I have no idea why I train so poorly compared to what I race.
Sometimes in training I can barely do 400s at 5k pace, and if I try to hold 5k pace for 8 x 600m, I can usually only manage 3-4 reps before fading.

I always feel like I am dying in training and it knocks my confidence at times but if I am wearing a HRM I can see my HR in training only peaks about 5bpm below my average 5k HR .
Also I can generally only manage 1 faster session per week as the legs are buckled so the rest of my mileage is very easy, much slower than other people with my times would do as their 'easy pace'.

I'm not sure what it is but I just don't seem to be able to go into the 'pain cave' in training at all. While I much prefer to have better race times than training times I do think it would benefit my racing if I was able to train a bit harder...

pconn062

Chivito550 wrote: »

If one is performing better in training than on race day then there is something seriously wrong IMO.

True, but some people don't have the benefit of a coach or club, and it can be hard to understand where you are going wrong.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I've got a friend whose training times are completely out of my league, I'd probably collapse if I tried his tempo runs or 800s.

Yet our race times are almost identical, all the way from 5k to the marathon and beyond, we are usually just a few seconds apart.

Maybe he doesn't need to run 80+ mile a week to run those times though, not having a go but rather saying different types of training suit different people. Maybe he only does 50 mile a week but the tempos and intervals get him to the same level as you, this approach might suit him better.

viperlogic

I always race better than I train, put it down to adrenaline as love the buzz of racing

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

Despite times going in the right direction this would be down to improved fitness but still possibly trails behind capability

(Mainly speculation here and trying to be objective on my own training as if I had the solution it wouldn't be an issue right?)

Yeah I agree there does seem to be a disconnect between your racing and training. What do you think is going on there?

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

Yeah I agree there does seem to be a disconnect between your racing and training. What do you think is going on there?

I have a few thoughts. Looking on paper I would say that the times the effort levels in training would be in line with what I should be feeling for each of the sessions so while it could be argued I am training too hard for my ability (which honestly I don't think I am but again people might argue differently) I think it comes down to confidence in racing.

This could be down to not racing as much as many people. Normally I use races as markers and it could be a case where the under racing creates too much pressure to hit a time and as a result I focus too much on the watch. Over the last few months however I think I have made positive in roads here especially in December where I ran pretty good races without looking at the watch and times which were reflective of current fitness. Raheny was definitely a set back as it was my first marker race in a long while and one I felt that would have bettered the training paces I had been doing in the build up to it but external factors played a role so I was unable to judge.

Going forward I would probably make good in roads in the relationships between them but until I manage to sort the setback with the nose (both physical and mental setback of it) I won't be able to know for certain whether I have actually learned anything or whether I am still making the same mistakes in a new way

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

I have a few thoughts. Looking on paper I would say that the times the effort levels in training would be in line with what I should be feeling for each of the sessions so while it could be argued I am training too hard for my ability (which honestly I don't think I am but again people might argue differently) I think it comes down to confidence in racing.

Yeah I'd say that could be it. I know people who get themselves so worked up before a race that they just blow it on the day, they fall apart and thats down to not knowing themselves mentally as well as physically. Cragg is a classic example of someone who just seems to capitulate very easily in races.
At the risk of sounding like Im being condescending to you, I think you're still pretty young and I think you have plenty of time to turn things around and figure out what works best for you.

dna_leri

In general I often race better than I train, but before a breakthrough race I will have a gut feeling that training is going well and a big improvement is possible. This can feed a positive cycle, as confidence in races comes from knowing that I am training well.

However you can't keep racing ahead of your training. In my case I ran a 2:02 800m last year but to improve on that time again I needed to train like a 2 min runner. You have to consolidate the gains in training before you can move on.

BeepBeep67

Timely article?

theboyblunder

ecoli wrote: »

I have a few thoughts. Looking on paper I would say that the times the effort levels in training would be in line with what I should be feeling for each of the sessions so while it could be argued I am training too hard for my ability (which honestly I don't think I am but again people might argue differently) I think it comes down to confidence in racing.

This could be down to not racing as much as many people. Normally I use races as markers and it could be a case where the under racing creates too much pressure to hit a time and as a result I focus too much on the watch. Over the last few months however I think I have made positive in roads here especially in December where I ran pretty good races without looking at the watch and times which were reflective of current fitness. Raheny was definitely a set back as it was my first marker race in a long while and one I felt that would have bettered the training paces I had been doing in the build up to it but external factors played a role so I was unable to judge.

Going forward I would probably make good in roads in the relationships between them but until I manage to sort the setback with the nose (both physical and mental setback of it) I won't be able to know for certain whether I have actually learned anything or whether I am still making the same mistakes in a new way

Id probably disregard most of the recent stuff ecoli. IIRC you did a 5k (windy day, tough enough course), and raheny (windy day), right? You did these during a marathon programme involving plenty of long runs and not a lot if specific 5k training.

If youd ballsed up a 10m or half on a good day maybe its a bit different, but reading too much into races like that is perhaps not that useful. Maybe try a tranche of specific training at shorter distances, bang out the pbs and then commit to an autumn marathon minus the (frankly outrageous ) midnight 400s and broken noses. See how that goes and then soul search?

IMO

theboyblunder

Ps I train crap and race worse, but occasionally get it right. Then I just remember those...

Chivito550

I'm a big believer in racing often as part of training. I race pretty much every weekend. Many of these races are not goal races and we train through them by having a hard session two days beforehand. Some races are treated as competitive training exercises. But by racing often 1) you get into the mindset and habit of racing, 2) you learn from the mistakes you will make so you don't make them later in more important races, 3) you are not putting all your eggs in one basket by merely focusing on the one goal race, and 4) confidence issues can be sorted out by just getting out there, throwing yourself into it, not being precious, and just learn from those around you who are faster than you. The more often you race against better guys the less daunting it becomes.

TRR

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm a big believer in racing often as part of training. I race pretty much every weekend. Many of these races are not goal races and we train through them by having a hard session two days beforehand. Some races are treated as competitive training exercises. But by racing often 1) you get into the mindset and habit of racing, 2) you learn from the mistakes you will make so you don't make them later in more important races, 3) you are not putting all your eggs in one basket by merely focusing on the one goal race, and 4) confidence issues can be sorted out by just getting out there, throwing yourself into it, not being precious, and just learn from those around you who are faster than you. The more often you race against better guys the less daunting it becomes.

Definitely a good strategy for sprinters and middle distance runners. Not always possible for runners racing 5k upwards. Would agree that the more you race the better you (should) get

ecoli

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm a big believer in racing often as part of training. I race pretty much every weekend. Many of these races are not goal races and we train through them by having a hard session two days beforehand. Some races are treated as competitive training exercises. But by racing often 1) you get into the mindset and habit of racing, 2) you learn from the mistakes you will make so you don't make them later in more important races, 3) you are not putting all your eggs in one basket by merely focusing on the one goal race, and 4) confidence issues can be sorted out by just getting out there, throwing yourself into it, not being precious, and just learn from those around you who are faster than you. The more often you race against better guys the less daunting it becomes.

While I would agree with this for Sprint and middle distance races however there has to be a bit more balance with regards 5k or longer distance

Timmaay

Interesting one on the confidence issue ecoli, its something that I'm lucky its rarely an issue anymore 2bh. Certainly part of it is down to what chivito said, for middle distance you can just race away in a 3wk block, so there is no huge pressure on any individual race. Maybe that is a problem for you, do you focus too much on the target races, when realistically maybe you should be alittle more flexible. We all know that ya can't be on flying form (both mentally and physically) every single day, and unfortunately you can't predict your "down" days, which can happen spontaneously. The other source of confidence for me is I'll admit that life outside of athletes has been manic the last few years, and I in general am just delightedly to be still able to train and race to the degree that I am. I'm only speculating here, but I guess it would be quite easy to come back quite negative from a few weeks of very limited training, and think "ugh back to square one again", but I'm lucky that athletics is as much about just escaping and having a chat with my clubmates, which takes the focus away from how horribly unfit I might be during that session.

Going back on topic, of racing or training, 2bh I've approached races from every single angle by now I think, from very few sessions and racing myself into shape, to having a very dedicated 2/3months block of training building up for a race, and finally to overtraining before a race and leaving it on the track in training. Certainly the 1st two work fine for me, and I fine it hard to distinguish which is the better approach ha. I definitely think mixing up your sessions is important, last thur I had a stinker of a 3k session, which I went off in slightly too quick a pace, and paid the price and had to pull the last rep. Even still, it was fantastic mental preparation for racing, so I'll take the positives from it definitely. The main thing for me is only to have that sort of session every so often. Then on Saturday, I did a 1500m session (8x300), in alot more controlled form, I was still moving but I was more focused on holding form etc, like the early laps of a 1500m.