Centralised Storage for firearms

Drexl Spivey

If ranges have locks, maybe we could leave the guns at the range.
Authorities shouldn't have a problem with that, and we can still play.


On the topic of "if a man loses his sanity, then he can do some damage, therefore we should ban guns altogether." I'd argue that with this logic we should ban a lot of things: cars for example.

Sparks

Drexl Spivey wrote: »

If ranges have locks, maybe we could leave the guns at the range.
Authorities shouldn't have a problem with that

A single location, miles from anywhere, very lengthy garda response time, and lots and lots of firearms inside behind one wall or door?
Not a good idea really...

Grizzly 45

Drexl Spivey wrote:

If ranges have locks, maybe we could leave the guns at the range.
Authorities shouldn't have a problem with that, and we can still play.

Until one of these armouries are cleaned out by a dissident group and /or criminal gang with a JCB and a few trucks.At least then if they did enact this,we would be well justified in saying "Told you so.":pac:

BillyBoy13

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Until one of these armouries are cleaned out by a dissident group and /or criminal gang with a JCB and a few trucks.At least then if they did enact this,we would be well justified in saying "Told you so.":pac:

What makes a range holding onto rifles any different than an RFD..??

Grizzly 45

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

What makes a range holding onto rifles any different than an RFD..??

Usually they are out in the middle of nowhere.Much easier to block roads and work away at leisure with heavy equipment ripping off the roof or strong room door.:rolleyes:
Put it like this,if it was such a great idea why didnt the UK introduce it post Hungerford and Dunblane???

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Usually they are out in the middle of nowhere.Much easier to block roads and work away at leisure with heavy equipment ripping off the roof or strong room door.:rolleyes:
Put it like this,if it was such a great idea why didnt the UK introduce it post Hungerford and Dunblane???

It was something the tories were considering post-dunblane, .22 single shot pistols to be kept on range premises, the uk police said it was unworkable. But tony b-lair and his nanny staters won the election while all this was being debated and banned everything anyway.

BillyBoy13

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Usually they are out in the middle of nowhere.Much easier to block roads and work away at leisure with heavy equipment ripping off the roof or strong room door.:rolleyes:
Put it like this,if it was such a great idea why didnt the UK introduce it post Hungerford and Dunblane???

Site security is something I could talk to you about all night... and then again tomorrow night and every night for the rest of the year. I actually own a business providing site security :P

Preventing/stopping JCB attacks on strong rooms isnt that big of a deal. It can be done relatively cheap. A lot of my clients would be people in rural areas looking to have strong rooms secured against everything from bomb attacks right through to people tunneling underground.

But a few things come to mind.

1) Site security can be beefed up immensely on a relatively tight budget.

2) The majority of firearms can be broken down, so for example, let the owner take home the pistol slide/mags/main spring and the range keeps the rest. Even then if the place does get robbed the criminals still don't have working firearms.

3) Criminals are getting guns anyway. If they are smart enough to get a lorry load of cocaine into the country I'm sure getting a few handguns/AKs thrown into the lorry wouldn't be much of an issue.

Besides, do they really want our guns? I mean, giving the choice does John Gilligan really want pardini and benelli pistols? Or would he rather a nice new glock/uzi/AK/AR or something with a bit of street cred

Witcher

Centralised storage would be a pain in the h0le for people looking to shoot at competitions on the far side of the country. Some people live a bit away from their club to begin with, imagine someone from Wicklow having to get up to Harbour House or somewhere, collect a gun, drive across the country to Lough Bo for instance, shoot a full competition and be back to the range before it closes.

Unworkable, can't think of anywhere that actually has that system. If it made any sense it probably would have been done by now. Couldn't see the government going for it because atm when firearms are taken they can lay it at the owner's door but if a range or storage depot was cleared out it it would be on them.

BillyBoy13

Blay wrote: »

Centralised storage would be a pain in the h0le for people looking to shoot at competitions on the far side of the country. Some people live a bit away from their club to begin with, imagine someone from Wicklow having to get up to Harbour House or somewhere, collect a gun, drive across the country to Lough Bo for instance, shoot a full competition and be back to the range before it closes.

Unworkable, can't think of anywhere that actually has that system. If it made any sense it probably would have been done by now.

About 3 weeks ago I had a firearm sent from an RFD in Cork to another RFD in Drogheda for €10 and that was next day delivery.

People in competitions could do the same kinda thing. Have it posted from range to range. And chances are there will be one or two other lads who will be going to it aswell, so once you split it maybe 3 ways sure it amounts to hardly anything.

Witcher

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

About 3 weeks ago I had a firearm sent from an RFD in Cork to another RFD in Drogheda for €10 and that was next day delivery.

People in competitions could do the same kinda thing. Have it posted from range to range. And chances are there will be one or two other lads who will be going to it aswell, so once you split it maybe 3 ways sure it amounts to hardly anything.

That's not really a realistic option, there would be far bigger volume of firearms being moved than there is now and one would evenually go missing and there would be murder over it. You're trying to cut the risk that firearms will be stolen, a risk which is low enough already but you're introducing isolated depots and a system of strangers moving firearms from place to place, that will only increase the risk.

The person best situated to ensure the safe storage and transport of a firearm is the person who has money invested in it. I dn't know what class of firearm we're discussing here but I've an expensive shotgun, I don't want strangers ****ign it in the back of a van etc. others like the gallery rifle/ISSF would have a couple of grand invested in their rifle, they wouldn't want that either.

It's a wonder the ptb haven't clamped down on couriers moving firearms already really.

BillyBoy13

Blay wrote: »

That's not really a realistic option, there would be far bigger volume of firearms being moved than there is now and one would evenually go missing and there would be murder over it.

Thats not much of an argument against centralised storage to be honest. I think you're just looking for reasons to go against it.

I mean, I could argue a similar thing about letting people have pistols at home. What if he puts his range bag on the roof of the car and forgets it and drives off. Or puts the bag down beside the car, realises he forgets the keys runs into the house to grab them, comes back and the bag is gone?

BillyBoy13

Blay wrote: »

The person best situated to ensure the safe storage and transport of a firearm is the person who has money invested in it. I dn't know what class of firearm we're discussing here but I've an expensive shotgun, I don't want strangers ****ign it in the back of a van etc. others like the gallery rifle/ISSF would have a couple of grand invested in their rifle, they wouldn't want that either.

You edited your post while I was typing reply so I missed the above paragraph.

But again it's a non-argument.

What happens when these people want to shoot in a different country? Do they tell airport staff they are bringing their shotguns/rifles on board the plane because they dont trust the staff not to toss it in the back? Or do they just go and buy a hard case specifically designed for this purpose?

Witcher

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

You edited your post while I was typing reply so I missed the above paragraph.

But again it's a non-argument.

What happens when these people want to shoot in a different country? Do they tell airport staff they are bringing their shotguns/rifles on board the plane because they dont trust the staff not to toss it in the back? Or do they just go and buy a hard case specifically designed for this purpose?

That's the price of going abroad, when I'm in my own country I'd like to maintain control of my own firearm.

I'm actually quite suprised to see a shooter suggesting this tbh. I mean think about it, nowhere has this system, if it made any sense it would have been implemented here of all places.

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Thats not much of an argument against centralised storage to be honest. I think you're just looking for reasons to go against it.

I mean, I could argue a similar thing about letting people have pistols at home. What if he puts his range bag on the roof of the car and forgets it and drives off. Or puts the bag down beside the car, realises he forgets the keys runs into the house to grab them, comes back and the bag is gone?

The system just makes no sense, what about ranges that don't have the ability to store firearms? What about hunters..will they get to keep their firearms at home? If they do I'm not handing mine in to a storage depot just because I'm a member of a range.

Plus if we're just talking pistols, then ranges that don't already have storage would have to spend thousands to store a few pistols and depending on the regulations those that already store them may have to upgrade their security. Who is going to pay for that? Those that don't have a pistol would object to having their fees used on only one section of the membership. Depending on numbers, those that actually have one may not be able to fund it themselves.

There are just too many hurdles with it, it's a nuclear solution to a issue with little enough risk. No legally held pistol has ever been stolen and used in a crime, even at the height of pistol ownership here. The most likely firearm to be taken is a shotgun just because of the number of them out there and the practice of some farmers throwing them behind the back door that still exists. You're targeting the wrong group.

rowa

Centralised security will thankfully never happen , the gardai don't even want guns stored in stations. so having a shed in the back of beyond crammed with firearms will never appeal to them and its something they would lobby the minister against. I don't see the point of it in the first place, you are either safe and responsible enough to own and have a firearm at home or you're not. You are also responsible in law for the firearm when you licence it , what if someone decides to mess about with one of your's when you are not there ? Its your neck on the block.

BattleCorp

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

People in competitions could do the same kinda thing. Have it posted from range to range. And chances are there will be one or two other lads who will be going to it aswell, so once you split it maybe 3 ways sure it amounts to hardly anything.

You have to be in charge of your firearm at all times. That's the best way to ensure the safe use and storage of your firearm.

If the PTB are worried about you and your few guns, how worried would they be about van loads of guns being shipped around the country for competitions.

Some lads would have 4 or 5 competition guns, add in 20 or 30 lads shooting, more sometimes, that adds up to a high risk delivery.

Then you also have the risk that your gun case could get a whack or two and screw up your sights, not much use on the day of the competition so. I've seen how some couriers handle packages - not good.

Also, most stuff delivered by courier is kept in a warehouse somewhere overnight. I wonder do they have gun safes?

BattleCorp

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

What if he puts his range bag on the roof of the car and forgets it and drives off. Or puts the bag down beside the car, realises he forgets the keys runs into the house to grab them, comes back and the bag is gone?

It's called personal responsibility.

If you have a gun, you mind it. If you don't, then they should throw the book at you.

BillyBoy13

Blay wrote: »

That's the price of going abroad, when I'm in my own country I'd like to maintain control of my own firearm.

If thats the only argument you have you're really clutching at straws.

Blay wrote: »

I'm actually quite suprised to see a shooter suggesting this tbh. I mean think about it, nowhere has this system, if it made any sense it would have been implemented here of all places.

Who cares if it hasnt been implemented anywhere else? There's a lot of things that already goes on here that doesnt happen anywhere else.

Blay wrote: »

The system just makes no sense

You keep saying this over and over and you're not convincing me. Give me a bullet point list of reasons why it doesn't make sense.

Blay wrote: »

What about ranges that don't have the ability to store firearms?

Thats fine. Nobody ever said that it would become obligatory for a range to have storage. They can take it or leave it.

Blay wrote: »

What about hunters..will they get to keep their firearms at home?

Why does it bother you what hunters do? Why do shooters always go against each other? Not that it really matters, but hunters don't use restricted pistols to hunt. (at least I hope none of them do).

There is only one reason you could have to want to bring your restricted pistol home at night and thats for dry fire practice.

If Shatter announced in this upcoming review that he was going to allow 9's and 38s and 45's as unrestricted but the catch is they have to be kept at the range, well obviously you and a few others on here would be writing him letters complaining, but a lot of people like myself would be absolutely delighted and would have an FCA1 on the supers desk within the hour.

BillyBoy13

BattleCorp wrote: »

If the PTB are worried about you and your few guns, how worried would they be about van loads of guns being shipped around the country for competitions.

Some lads would have 4 or 5 competition guns, add in 20 or 30 lads shooting, more sometimes, that adds up to a high risk delivery.

Also, most stuff delivered by courier is kept in a warehouse somewhere overnight. I wonder do they have gun safes?

If you are so worried about couriers shipping huge amounts of guns and storing them why dont you complain to the government? I mean it's whats happening right now every week all over the country.

One of the RFD's I go to gets huge shipments all the time (be of one the biggest in the country). We're talking vans loaded with slabs of shotgun cartridges, bullets, rifles, shotguns etc.... This fella has been in business a long time and I don't recall ever hearing about one of his vans been raided. Or any RFDs courrier van been raided for that matter.

Maybe your right, maybe these vans are high risk. Maybe we should kick up and make sure when these RFD's are shipping guns and ammo into the country they have to do it in armoured vans driven by ex SAS lads. The dealer can pass the tab onto us.

Besides, whats more appealing. A van loaded with brand new, fully assembled working rifles and slabs of bullets or a van with possibly 30 pistols that are all missing slides/mags and main springs?

I know which one Id be going for.

BillyBoy13

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's called personal responsibility.

If you have a gun, you mind it. If you don't, then they should throw the book at you.

You're missing the point.

Blay said we cant use centralised security because a courier might lose a gun some day.

I said you could use the same argument against private ownership. i.e. that a private owner could lose a gun just as handy.

BattleCorp

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

If you are so worried about couriers shipping huge amounts of guns and storing them why dont you complain to the government? I mean it's whats happening right now every week all over the country.

I'm not worried at all.

I just think it makes much more sense security wise not to have all the guns stored in one place all the time. It's more attractive to a criminal to hit a place that stores sh1t loads of guns than risking it for one or two guns.

Secondly, it seriously restricts your ability to shoot if you only have part of your gun. Supposing your range can't store part of your gun, what do you do then? If you store part of the gun with a firearm dealer, is he going to be at the range all the time. What happens if you want to shoot some fine Summer evening during the week? It's Sunday, "I think I'll go up to the range, then "ah bollix, I don't have all of my gun."

This isn't a personal attack on you, I just think the idea isn't practical.

BillyBoy13

BattleCorp wrote: »

I just think it makes much more sense security wise not to have all the guns stored in one place all the time. It's more attractive to a criminal to hit a place that stores sh1t loads of guns than risking it for one or two guns.

Like I said already:

1) Criminals are getting guns anyway. Now granted you'll always get the opportunity thief who will happen to see you put your range bag down beside the car and run back in to the house to get the keys off the table. But generally speaking, the organised gangs that would have the funding and resources to pull off such a heist wouldnt be gunning for (excuse the pun) for a room full of olympic pistols (and thats before you even consider these olymipic pistol are missing critical components).

2) If someone does somehow manage to clean out a range the guns are worthless without the slides and springs. If you are good enough with a machine to make up new slides- then you'd just make the pistols from scratch.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Supposing your range can't store part of your gun, what do you do then?

To be honest Im not sure if any range in this country could securely store pistols at this point in time.

But if the law changed tomorrow, if Shatter went onto the RTE and said we could have as many centerfire pistols as we want just so long as they are stored at the range, ranges would soon get the facilities.

Yes, the first couple of years would be bumpy, especially for the smaller ranges, but it would eventually happen.

Witcher

Apparently shooters, NGB's, the DoJ, AGS are all wrong, centralised storage is the right way to go..you heard it here from Billyboy first:pac:

The couriers are set to make a killing...not a courier are ya Billy? Lining up a bit of business for yourself:pac:

BillyBoy13

You tell me Im wrong and that centralised storage is a crazy idea and doesnt make sense.... so I ask you to give me a bullet point list of reasons why it doesn't make sense and all you can say is:

Blay wrote: »

Apparently shooters, NGB's, the DoJ, AGS are all wrong, centralised storage is the right way to go..you heard it here from Billyboy first:pac:

BillyBoy13

Blay wrote: »

The couriers are set to make a killing...not a courier are ya Billy? Lining up a bit of business for yourself:pac:

And then you edit and add in this.... are we really going to sit here name calling or can you actually explain why Im wrong?

Witcher

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

You tell me Im wrong and that centralised storage is a crazy idea and doesnt make sense.... so I ask you to give me a bullet point list of reasons why it doesn't make sense and all you can say is:

No, no as I said we all got it wrong. Centralised storage is the way to go. I'll be making a submission at the earliest opportunity calling for it.

Witcher

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

And then you edit and add in this.... are we really going to sit here name calling or can you actually explain why Im wrong?

Didn't call you a name, I asked if you were a courier...I'm not hearing no...:pac

You're not wrong, everyone else is wrong. Tbh I don't even know what you're advocating..first it was 'pistols' in general, then all firearms from what I can see now it's only restricted pistols. Exactly which firearms would be in these fanciful depots?

BillyBoy13

Im done with this. If you want to discuss the pros and cons for centralised storage come back to me.

And BTW, no Im not in the courier business.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=BillyBoy13;89029507]Site security is something I could talk to you about all night... and then again tomorrow night and every night for the rest of the year. I actually own a business providing site security :P

Good stuff I can talk to you about it for months then..:P:P:P:
My job is to "Red cell" and find "what ifs" and loopholes in peoples security systems , personel and otherwise.

1) Site security can be beefed up immensely on a relatively tight budget

.
Very much so,but when you look at somthing like the total overkill that was required at Midlands for the reloading,you have to realise that you are dealing with total overkill paranoia by the PTB.At one point i was suggested that they would need CCTV to watch the CCTV in case somone knocked out the primary CCTV to be secure to be secure.:rolleyes:

2) The majority of firearms can be broken down, so for example, let the owner take home the pistol slide/mags/main spring and the range keeps the rest. Even then if the place does get robbed the criminals still don't have working firearms.

Taking point 3 with this ,if it is easy to get illegal arms,how easier will it be to get spare parts or get some corrupt or criminal machine shop to run you up a bunch of home made replacement parts?Unlikely I know,but this is the sort of mindset you can be sealing with here in the Govt.

3) Criminals are getting guns anyway. If they are smart enough to get a lorry load of cocaine into the country I'm sure getting a few handguns/AKs thrown into the lorry wouldn't be much of an issue.

Thats the given and thats where the law enforcement should be concentrating on,not all the time on the "soft touch" of liscensed gunowners.

Besides, do they really want our guns? I mean, giving the choice does John Gilligan really want pardini and benelli pistols? Or would he rather a nice new glock/uzi/AK/AR or something with a bit of street cred

"Street cred???":o:p:pac::D. A bit too much "Boyz in da hood" there. In da really real world you have "cred" if you have anything that shoots a bullet.That includes a "one shot,pray and run like Hell"..Zip gun.

Always amazed me that our lot even botherd with all this bothersomeness of importing firepower when there are plenty of unemployed fitters/turners and machinists and IDA state grants to set up "engineering works" where they could have been making fortunes turning out STEN /MAC11 type copies of SMGs and selling them to all and sundry for cash.Just import the ammo alot easier and with the control of the ammo you have control too of the market.... But I guess we dont have the brightest people as criminals as otherwise they wouldnt be criminals.

But anyway....Unless you have like the army, an armed gaurd on the armouriesas they do in Europe on some private gun dealers warehouses,these are no matter what large targets with potential STEAL ME signs on them. Why centralise everything where one determined hit could take the whole lot and as you know yourself NO security is 100% impregnable.Especially if you got the main key holders family hostage.:eek:
Better to keep stuff like this dispersed where they might steal a half dozen rather than a few hundred.

Grizzly 45

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

T

I mean, I could argue a similar thing about letting people have pistols at home. What if he puts his range bag on the roof of the car and forgets it and drives off. Or puts the bag down beside the car, realises he forgets the keys runs into the house to grab them, comes back and the bag is gone?

THAT has been done more by "trained firearms police experts" in the UK and globally than by civillians.:D SO19 were notorious for leaving their HKs on the squad car roofs and tearing off only to be alerted by passing motorists .:P

The female officers are notorious for leaving their duty arms in the ladies powder room after answering a call of nature. In all fairness to them hip holsters are rather impactical appreal for a lady if she needs the facilities.;)

civdef

Wow, this is really useful stuff for this thread.

Grizzly 45

Buts thats boards.e /shooting for you Civ:)...We range far and wide on any topic that goes BANG!!Which IMHO can make for some very intresting and entertaining reading.

Sparks

Perhaps Grizz, but the original topic was a little too important to dilute so I've split out this discussion into a sub-thread and we'll be deleting the military transport posts - theres a Military forum on boards.ie just for that kind of thing, it doesn't have much place in a sports/hunting area.

deerhunter1

Drexl Spivey wrote: »

If ranges have locks, maybe we could leave the guns at the range.
Authorities shouldn't have a problem with that, and we can still play.


On the topic of "if a man loses his sanity, then he can do some damage, therefore we should ban guns altogether." I'd argue that with this logic we should ban a lot of things: cars for example.

All the eggs in one basket Nooooooo Way

garv123

Dont most lads who cant make the range regularly who want to be competitive train at home with trigger practice, dry firing?

That would work well with a toy gun when yours is at the range locked up.

Sparks

garv123 wrote: »

Dont most lads who cant make the range regularly who want to be competitive train at home with trigger practice, dry firing?

And those who're at the range every day as well. Dry fire in the morning, live fire in the evenings.

That would work well with a toy gun when yours is at the range locked up.

Only if you were shooting with the toy gun in competition - you use the same firearm for both training and competition.

Honestly, I think that the majority of people who advocate centralised storage don't understand what real training requires, let alone the security issues involved.

garv123

garv123 wrote: »

Dont most lads who cant make the range regularly who want to be competitive train at home with trigger practice, dry firing?

That would work well with a toy gun when yours is at the range locked up.

The toy gun bit was meant to be sarcasm :cool:

Sparks

garv123 wrote: »

The toy gun bit was meant to be sarcasm :cool:

Sorry garv, I was thinking that was a repeat of the suggestion a while back for IPSC shooters to use airsoft replicas of their range guns.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Sorry garv, I was thinking that was a repeat of the suggestion a while back for IPSC shooters to use airsoft replicas of their range guns.

Ask the Japanese national champion on that point;). He cant use a real 45 ACP much less own one in Japan so he uses a customised airsoft exactly the same weight and design of his real one stored outside Japan for him.
In fact IPSC specifically made a class of airsoft IPSC for countries that have prohibitive handgun laws.. Places like UK, Japan, S Korea,China.
Thing is its still irrevelant for Ireland as apprently IPSC airsoft is banned here as well going by the airsoft lads..:rolleyes::(..No worries about any of the other military drill ,room clearing ,ambush techniques or any of that stuff that might be more helpful to any prospective terrorist or whatever. So long as that IPSC combat shooting doesnt happen we're grand.:rolleyes: