Christian Mysticism / Negative Theology

Eramen

“We pray to be raised up in this transcendentally shining darkness, and, by seeing nothing and by not knowing, to see and know in this very absence of sight and knowledge him who is above all seeing and all knowing; and, through the negation of all things that exist, to praise in transcendence him who is intrinsically transcendent.” - The Cloud of Unknowing

Hi everyone.

I was wondering do we have anybody else on the boards who is also interested in Christian mysticism or negative theology? It would be great to get to know more people who like to participate in religion and God in this kind of way.

I guess the term itself is a bit misleading for those who are not familiar, so I'll open with a brief explanation as best I can. Mysticism refers to the spiritual practice at the level of the individual person who is actively seeking union in God. This goes hand-in-hand with the doctrine of the Church (which represents the collective, orthodox religious tradition). Some famous Catholic mystics would be St John of the Cross, St Theresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, Johannaes Tauler.

The root of Christian mysticism is the seeking of a deepened understanding of God through revelatory experience. We gain these special experiences of God through everyday aspects of our lives such as engagement in devotional prayer, silent meditation, selfless action, or the realisation of the scriptures. The emphasis however, is placed on the attainment of Christ through noetic experience, by which I mean the Soul's direct contact with the Absolute Godhead beyond the realm of being.

'Being' represents the products of the senses and the mind - the outer world - and hence all world knowledge, to which God is above and beyond due to his Absolute, boundless nature. World knowledge cannot help us understand him. Mere concepts or ideas cannot reach him, because through these we would invariably limit him by ascribing to him earthly characteristics such as 'good', 'the highest' and 'pure light' etc. This is not consistent with his Eternal transcendence - he being above all manifest reality - the conditions of the physical and mental sphere of existence simply cannot cannot contain his Infinity, due to its limited nature.

Thus it's only by pulling free of the mind and its constructs that we begin to experience the negation of the self. This self, which is impermanent, is sacrificed on the arms of the cross in order to reveal the eternally permanent, which is the Divine Radiance of the Soul. It is the Soul that is the Mirror that reflects God, and God who reflects Her. They resemble and mimic each other in the plain of Heaven, causing us to emulate God in Spirit. The Soul then acts according to God's Will in this way.

“And thus, through dexterous removal of all these things, brought about by grace, we can practice clearly, beyond understanding, Beauty itself in its own naked, uncreated reality without beginning. How this can be done is unknown except to all that experience it, and even to them is unknown except while the experience lasts.” [The Cloud of Unknowing]

Christhood is also of supreme importance. This is the embodiment of our physical Being in Christ, the making of the body into a Temple of God. We know that it's only by denying the self and the nullification of self-will (trying to find happiness in external, temporary things) that we can come to be more Christ-like. Eventually as we gain God through devotional practice and engaging in free action (action not influenced by self-will) we are Christed, and we come into Being in God, we are possessed by his Heavenly Will - becoming its Son. When the Invisible Spirit comes down upon us, the body, mind and Soul unite as One in the Cloud of God. We are deified in Christ. Only when this trinity of body, mind and Soul are One do we begin to unite in the Will of God through Christ himself.


“Because the same One, who is begotten and born of God the Father, without ceasing in eternity, is born today, within time, in human nature, we make a holiday to celebrate it. St. Augustine says that this birth is always happening. And yet, if it does not occur in me, how could it help me? Everything depends on that.” – Meister Eckhart

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20


It might also be helpful to check out my blog if you're interested. It deals mostly with Christian metaphysics and spirituality.

Does this form of Christian theology 'click' with anyone else? I find it to be an incredibly rich and profound type of religious practice. It very much suites my character, being a naturally attracted to the 'mythic' and being a metaphysical sort of person. Surely I'm not the only one!

Benny_Cake

It's of great interest to me, but I'm fairly new to it so I've barely scratched the surface. I started attending a Quaker meeting for worship, which has led me to become accustomed to spending an hour of a Sunday morning waiting in silence on the Holy Spirit. With mixed results I have to say but I feel that I get a lot out of it. Bringing that encounter with the divine presence to my day to day life during the other 6 days and 23 hours of the week has been the biggest challenge for me.

My reading on mysticism has so far been largely from Quaker sources: "A Testament of Devotion" by Thomas Kelly, "Holy Silence" by Brent Bill, and "God Just Is" by Curt Gardner. I'd like to read some of the writing on the subject by those from other traditions - Ignatian spirituality, centering prayer, and the teachings of John Main among others.

Just curious - what is "negative theology"? I don't think I've come across that before.

Eramen

Negative theology is the idea (if you want to call it that) that natural or human qualities can't be given to God, due to the fact he is the Eternity itself, standing distinct from the material world of being, as well as non-being.

Since he is Transcendent, he transcends our concepts and ideas and because of this the mind can't positively identify him. So in a way, we can only know God by firstly negating everything that God is not, and then retreating into the Unknowing of non-mind, away from worldly concepts. Here we can deny everything (even ourselves as Christ said) but it would be impossible to deny God as he is above these things. So through this negation he stands as the only thing remaining, in the Eternal.

The wiki article is a good explanation. The opposite of negative theology is cataphatic theology (which is more what we encounter in Churches etc).

I'll check out those Quaker works. I'm more well-read in the Rhineland mystics and some others. This form of religion is very fascinating and it makes a whole lot of sense to me, moreso than other methods that I've participated in. Though in saying this the Church-body is still definitely essential.

I've been meaning to look into Ignatian spirituality, he certainly was a master and his 'Spiritual Exercises' are classic (I haven't read them yet though). Personally I follow St. John of the Crosses prayer-meditations and I find them to be great.

roosh

Hey Eramen, I've tried looking into christian mysticism before but didn't find too much. I've explored buddhism to an extent and think that there are probably many similiarities, from what I've encountered - possibly a lot of similarities with Hinduism too.

There is a guy by the name of Fr.Laurence Freeman who has a retreat centre in West Cork, he was a benedictine monk (not sure if he still is) and he discovered something about meditation while studying scripture (or whatever it is that monks study). He holds meditation retreats and things like that.

Not sure if that would be along the lines of what you are interested in.

EDIT: his centre is on Beara Island

Eramen

roosh wrote: »

Hey Eramen, I've tried looking into christian mysticism before but didn't find too much. I've explored buddhism to an extent and think that there are probably many similiarities, from what I've encountered - possibly a lot of similarities with Hinduism too.

Hi Roosh. There's plenty of stuff written on Christian mysticism and similar subjects, including by the saints. I've a 'library' section on my blog that shows the material that I've found the most useful so far. I'm sure you must have heard of Eckhart Tolle? He took his namesake from Meister Eckhart, a medieval Dominican Monk. He has popularized many of his teachings, such as recognising the self-will, the difference between it, free action and the Soul, surrender of the self, and lastly Free Mind through detachment. This is all in the Catholic tradition.

I read the Buddhist and Hindu literature frequently. They are useful for gaining what I call a 'healthy psychology'. But religiously speaking, it's best to follow one path as regards to spiritual practice. I've found that mystical Christianity and neo-platonic metaphysics to be the most suitable for me. It's as complex as anything found in the east.

I used to consider myself highly influenced by Buddhist thought, but later on I found out this was simply 'Consensus Buddhism' - a hollowed out form of the original, based on a low spirituality without any real Acesis. This comprises of the vast majority of 'Western Buddhism', and increasingly the Eastern variety as well. I've thought about posting my thoughts on this in the Buddhist forum. I don't think they'd go down well though.

roosh wrote: »

There is a guy by the name of Fr.Laurence Freeman who has a retreat centre in West Cork, he was a benedictine monk (not sure if he still is) and he discovered something about meditation while studying scripture (or whatever it is that monks study). He holds meditation retreats and things like that.

Not sure if that would be along the lines of what you are interested in.

EDIT: his centre is on Beara Island

I've heard of him. He's still a monk yes. The Christian saints and mystics believe that meditation is vital to sacramental life and to coming to God. There are many books on this subject but I recommend going straight to the sources, to Theresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, Ignatius Loyola etc to name a few. There is many different meditative inroads that all go to the same place.

It's something I've always encouraged in myself and when talking with other Christians. If you're still interested in mystical Christianity I'd probably start with Meister Eckhart and the Cloud of Unknowing. They are very enlightening, oft times mind-blowing. I will say that it does take a great deal of practice/discipline to fully understand and to get the most out of them, at least in my experience.

roosh

firstly thank you for the reply; I had asked in this forum before but got no reply that was - what I would consider insightful, possibly bcos of the path that I was lead down...by whatever you want to call him/her/it!

Eramen wrote: »

Hi Roosh. There's plenty of stuff written on Christian mysticism and similar subjects, including by the saints. I've a 'library' section on my blog that shows the material that I've found the most useful so far. I'm sure you must have heard of Eckhart Tolle? He took his namesake from Meister Eckhart, a medieval Dominican Monk. He has popularized many of his teachings, such as recognising the self-will, the difference between it, free action and the Soul, surrender of the self, and lastly Free Mind through detachment. This is all in the Catholic tradition.

I read the Buddhist and Hindu literature frequently. They are useful for gaining what I call a 'healthy psychologically'. But religiously speaking, it's best to follow one path as regards to spiritual practice. I've found that mystical Christianity and neo-platonic metaphysics to be the most suitable for me. It's as complex as anything found in the east.

I used to consider myself highly influenced by Buddhist thought, but later on I found out this was simply 'Consensus Buddhism' - a hollowed out form of the original, based on a low spirituality without any real Acesis. This comprises of the vast majority of 'Western Buddhism', and increasingly the Eastern variety as well. I've thought about posting my thoughts on this in the Buddhist forum. I don't think they'd go down well though.

Firstly, post your thoughts, nothing will ever go down badly in the buddhist forum!

Secondly, have you got a link to your blog, particularly the library section?

I personally believe that Ireland will need a Christian "angle" on spirituality/"mysticism" - and could do as we did in the "dark ages" (but that's just me rambling). An approach that is both atheistic yet theistic at the same time!

Eramen wrote: »

I've heard of him. He's still a monk yes. The Christian saints and mystics believe that meditation is vital to sacramental life and to coming to God.

As far as I know, yes, but I didn't want to say for sure - met him in a buddhist monastery in the last year.

Personally, I think this is where the Roman Empire came in with the Niscean Council; meditation, apparently used to be a big part of Christian practice, but when you start filling spiritual positions with politically minded people, it's inevitable that people will get lead astray.

Eramen wrote: »

There is many books on this subject but I recommend going straight to the sources, to Theresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, Ignatius Loyola etc to name a few. There is many different meditative inroads that all go to the same place.

Could you suggest the title of a book?

Eramen wrote: »

It's something I've always encouraged in myself and when talking with other Christians. If you're still interested in mystical Christianity I'd probably start with Meister Eckhart and the Cloud of Unknowing. They are very enlightening, oft times mind-blowing. I will say that it does take a great deal of practice/discipline to fully understand and to get the most of of them, at least in my experience.

Aapologies, I'll start with "the Cloud of Unknowing".

Continuous practice is the only way. I've lapsed in my own practice but I know from the practice I've done that there is no other way.

The beautiful thing is that empirical research is growing into the field.



Please, send me a link to your blog...

Eramen

roosh wrote: »

Secondly, have you got a link to your blog, particularly the library section?

I personally believe that Ireland will need a Christian "angle" on spirituality/"mysticism" - and could do as we did in the "dark ages" (but that's just me rambling). An approach that is both atheistic yet theistic at the same time!

Sorry, I forgot to mention that my blog is linked in my signature. It's a certainty that Christianity/Catholicism has not expended itself and the religious tradition itself is still of much good. I think that society in general does not really understand the deep well of practical techniques for mind and body, as well as the ascetic spirituality that is contained at the heart of this religion.

The atheistic approach (you seem to be aware that it's not what we call 'atheism' today) historically was mainly for men who wished to live apart from society and the world in order to gain insight to what lies beyond it. They had no need for customary religious practices or conventional dogmas, instead being devoted utterly to realising the incomprehensible Absolute, who awaits us at the end of all divine experience. Thus they were non-theists or atheists. Atheists in the Godhead.

Alternatively, theists seek to abide by doctrine and religious law because they live in the hustle and bustle of society. When engaged in trading, working, sexing, and entertainments, the theistic laws and daily devotions are easier to remember and grasp than is the wholly impersonal philosophies of atheist religion. In this way the theistic man can attain something higher, keeping himself on the fruitful path, even though he participates in the world; a world that could so easily led him to ruin.

In my opinion, in today's globalized, consumer-oriented, and increasingly urban world, there is little doubt that theism is best for the vast, vast majority. People today are more embedded in the concepts of human knowledge and affairs than ever, and this can led to the tremendous kindling of self-delusion in a person if conceived from the point of the self-willed ego. Atheism, for virtually all people, is a place of laziness and indiscipline in the modern age. God needs to be closer than this in the form of personal deities, icons, spoken prayer and dogma. It must be said though, theism and atheism intersect greatly in many places.

roosh wrote: »

Personally, I think this is where the Roman Empire came in with the Niscean Council; meditation, apparently used to be a big part of Christian practice, but when you start filling spiritual positions with politically minded people, it's inevitable that people will get lead astray.

I've rarely read a saint or revered person that didn't recommend or explicitly state that meditation was absolutely necessary!

Christians still do carry out some meditations, but there is much more to the practice as well. There is always room for expansion.

roosh wrote: »

Aapologies, I'll start with "the Cloud of Unknowing".

Continuous practice is the only way. I've lapsed in my own practice but I know from the practice I've done that there is no other way.

You should keep it up, as you know the rewards that are received constantly. It's best by following a mentor, who has been made one in Christ, living or dead. The disciplic tradition (the taking on of disciples) is the bedrock of all the Indo-European religions. We learn most correctly from the Master.

I wrote about the Cloud of Unknowing in my first blog post. Perhaps it will be useful to you. Don't hesitate to keep me updated.

roosh

Eramen wrote: »

Sorry, I forgot to mention that my blog is linked in my signature. It's a certainty that Christianity/Catholicism has not expended itself and the religious tradition itself is still of much good. I think that society in general does not really understand the deep well of practical techniques for mind and body, as well as the ascetic spirituality that is contained at the heart of this religion.

The atheistic approach (you seem to be aware that it's not what we call 'atheism' today) historically was mainly for men who wished to live apart from society and the world in order to gain insight to what lies beyond it. They had no need for customary religious practices or conventional dogmas, instead being devoted utterly to realising the incomprehensible Absolute, who awaits us at the end of all divine experience. Thus they were non-theists or atheists. Atheists in the Godhead.

Alternatively, theists seek to abide by doctrine and religious law because they live in the hustle and bustle of society. When engaged in trading, working, sexing, and entertainments, the theistic laws and daily devotions are easier to remember and grasp than is the wholly impersonal philosophies of atheist religion. In this way the theistic man can attain something higher, keeping himself on the fruitful path, even though he participates in the world; a world that could so easily led him to ruin.

In my opinion, in today's globalized, consumer-oriented, and increasingly urban world, there is little doubt that theism is best for the vast, vast majority. People today are more embedded in the concepts of human knowledge and affairs than ever, and this can led to the tremendous kindling of self-delusion in a person if conceived from the point of the self-willed ego. Atheism, for virtually all people, is a place of laziness and indiscipline in the modern age. God needs to be closer than this in the form of personal deities, icons, spoken prayer and dogma. It must be said though, theism and atheism intersect greatly in many places.




I've rarely read a saint or revered person that didn't recommend or explicitly state that meditation was absolutely necessary!

Christians still do carry out some meditations, but there is much more to the practice as well. There is always room for expansion.



You should keep it up, as you know the rewards that are received constantly. It's best by following a mentor, who has been made one in Christ, living or dead. The disciplic tradition (the taking on of disciples) is the bedrock of all the Indo-European religions. We learn most correctly from the Master.

I wrote about the Cloud of Unknowing in my first blog post. Perhaps it will be useful to you. Don't hesitate to keep me updated.

Your signature isn't showing up for me.

Also, I would agree with pretty much everything you've said there!

Eramen

It's http://darkcloudofbeing.wordpress.com/