Dole scroungers to clean the canal in Mullingar

Time Now Please

I read an article in the Examiner about a very prominent businessman in Mullingar who has suggested that everybody that is signing on the dole should be made clean all the sh*te and rubbish from the canal in Mullingar in order to justify their weekly payment.

Milly Walsh, who owns and runs a petrol station and shop on the Dublin road stated in the Examiner that "People on the dole in Mullingar should be made get up and do something". he also went on to say that they should also be made clean the canal that runs through the town.

Such an arrogant little man! This man is obviously of the opinion that unemployed people are not fit for anything else but to clean the canal but I bet he will not refuse their money when they pull in to his forecourt for petrol or into his shop. He stated this at a recent retailers meeting in a hotel in Mullingar, I wonder is this the opinion of all the retailers in Mullingar who like Mr. Walsh depend on the public to keep them in business.

Mr. Walsh's comments might well come back to haunt him, silly silly little man!

Boombastic

Nothing wrong with cleaning up the local environment no matter how beneath you you feel it may be.
Who benefits? Your community

Time Now Please

Boombastic wrote: »

Nothing wrong with cleaning up the local environment no matter how beneath you you feel it may be.
Who benefits? Your community

Hold up a second Bombastic, I never said it was beneath me, I was pointing out the attitude this retailer has towards people who are unemployed. Yet on the other hand I am 100% sure he will take their money when they visit his shop, it was a stupid statement to make and he needs to man up and apologise for making it.

Boombastic

Did this fella call them 'dole scroungers" or is that your own turn of phrase?

Time Now Please

Boombastic wrote: »

Did this fella call them 'dole scroungers" or is that your own turn of phrase?

No disrespect but have you read the article on the Westmeath Examiner? if not then I might suggest you do, then you will know what I am talking about.

dharn

Dead right why should able bodied people get money for doing nothing

Boombastic

Can you link to the article? Thanks

athlonelad

Boombastic wrote: »

Can you link to the article? Thanks

I don't know about cleaning the canal but I think a lot of people on the dole would like to be at something rather than sitting around all day.
I think the paper may be sensationalising this story. It is perhaps out of context. Most people on the dole want to work. There are of course some who are quite happy to live off the state and do nothing but I would like to think they are in the minority.

L.Jenkins

Time Now Please wrote: »

No disrespect but have you read the article on the Westmeath Examiner? if not then I might suggest you do, then you will know what I am talking about.

Link to the article?

Busted Flat.

We had another one of those clowns, a busted car dealer saying something similar. A year or so ago.

AngryHippie

I don't think it could do any harm for some of them.

It would clean the town up a bit, and might help with the depression that comes with long term unemployment.
Granted, cleaning up the canal wouldn't be my starting point, and I would also propose offering an incentive to actually do it ( a bonus on completion of a certain number of hours)

It won't attract the problem scroungers (of which there aren't that many in any case) but it would certainly get some of the slightly more ambitious ones involved in something constructive before the rot sets in.

As for Milly being an arrogant little man, I disagree, I think he's frustrated and pissed off with the sense of entitlement he encounters every day, and personally knowing the man (and the opportunities for work he has given to many people who would get doors slammed in their faces by others), and his work ethic, this won't sit well. Fair balls to him for putting his hand up with an idea, I hope it doesn't impact his business.

Why should they get something for nothing ?

An Ri rua

I think the focus of the OP is that this man was suggesting that people on the dole clean up the canal. It's not his call to make. And it is very offensive to presume that just because someone is now receiving a state benefit, that they should become a tool of everyone else in society.

Shouldn't all of the parents who receive childrens' allowance have to get in and clean the canal as well? And the farmers who receive grants, allowances and yes, welfare payments. How about all of the landlords who receive a subsidy for their rental properties which are not worth half of that if the market was allowed to work correctly?

Consider the possibility that a minimum level of welfare is now a human right, as is the right to work. So the blame lies with those in charge of the structures. Those who are talking about spending €500m to transport water from Lough Derg / Portarlington to Dublin instead of managing the overhang in construction workers by hiring 2-5000 of them to upgrade the current water system.

The job of government is to govern. For well over a decade, they've been doing a VERY poor job. No attempt to ensure that so many of those who are currently being overpaid in the public and civil service (I'm talking about those well above the minimum wage folks) are not being paid part of THEIR salaries for nothing. No attempt to ensure that DOCTORS, SOLICITORS etc are not being over-paid (part-paid for doing nothing effectively).

So, a little more compassion and a little more constructive thought towards the employment problem / the right to work & dignity would better serve Mullingar and any other community in Ireland.

The vast majority of people on the dole were VERY HAPPY WORKERS who now find themselves unable to find work and to live their lives with an amount of dignity. You do them no service whatsoever to blithely talk about their psychological 'needs' in such usurping fashion. They, like all of us, need to see radical change in order that real property values are reached, those who owe debts have them allocated properly to them (landlords are getting rentals way over what even the current yields should be and that's even before you consider that property is still subsidised and thousands of houses/mortgages exist in a twilight zone of being in arrears yet not repossessed and re-sold). They need to see professionals operating in a market where their fees come down along with the rest of our expectations and metrics.

We should seek more constructive imaginative work from those in employment generation agencies, those in local government, those in private companies (how many Westmeath companies could be getting part of the online retail market and STILL have done almost nothing about it) before we seek to demonise those who were former fellow workers and now, for reasons not of their making, are being tarred with the same brush that was used right through the boom for the 50,000 or so longterm unemployed (unemployable in many cases also).

Have a bit more respect for your fellow citizens and a bit more imagination for your town than cleaning a canal. Get real.

AngryHippie

An Ri rua wrote: »

I think the focus of the OP is that this man was suggesting that people on the dole clean up the canal. It's not his call to make. And it is very offensive to presume that just because someone is now receiving a state benefit, that they should become a tool of everyone else in society.

It is equally offensive to presume that there is reward without effort, and it is this sort of ridiculous attitude that has led to the current sense of entitlement.

An Ri rua wrote: »

Shouldn't all of the parents who receive childrens' allowance have to get in and clean the canal as well?

It could be argued, that there should be some return yes. The prohibitive cost of childcare makes it impractical. The system only works because the majority of families have at least one parent actively working and contributing to the economy.

An Ri rua wrote: »

And the farmers who receive grants, allowances and yes, welfare payments.

Who also pay income tax, and do a pretty gruelling job in order to produce essential food. I don't know how many farms you've worked on or farmers you know, but I would highly recommend reading some IFA statistics on hours worked, average incomes and hourly rates before you go suggesting that our farmers need to spend time cleaning up the mess that urban asbos create. That is a total nonsense.

An Ri rua wrote: »

Consider the possibility that a minimum level of welfare is now a human right

You are a dreamer. Economically it is not possible for a minimum level of welfare to be provided without the vast majority working hard to generate the tax revenue to pay for this minimum welfare.
In an ideal world, possibly, but the reality in Ireland at the moment is pretty far from the ideal world.
I strongly disagree that it is a human right to get your sustenance for zero effort. In the case of disabilities etc, then absolutely state support is an essential human right, but for an able bodied person, get up, get out and do something for it.

An Ri rua wrote: »

as is the right to work.

If anything, this would enable the right to work. Sure it's not a glamorous job, but it is work, and would be rewarded. Whats the problem ? Too good to pick up litter ?

An Ri rua wrote: »

So the blame lies with those in charge of the structures. Those who are talking about spending €500m to transport water from Lough Derg / Portarlington to Dublin instead of managing the overhang in construction workers by hiring 2-5000 of them to upgrade the current water system.

What are you even talking about here. Looking for someone to blame ?
For what ? The economic downturn ? The criminal activity of Bankers ?
I can assure you that there will be feasibility studies done on the water situation, and that the plans they chose will be selected for a reason.
In the meantime, instead of doing zero and receiving dole benefits, some of these workers could accomplish something that benefits everyone.

An Ri rua wrote: »

The job of government is to govern. For well over a decade, they've been doing a VERY poor job. No attempt to ensure that so many of those who are currently being overpaid in the public and civil service are not being paid part of THEIR salaries for nothing.

When was the last time an unemployed person had a performance review ?
I'm not standing up for the gubberment here, or the civil service, as I do have issues with their efficiency, productivity and renumeration, but that has nothing to do with the discussion here really.

An Ri rua wrote: »

So, a little more compassion and a little more constructive thought towards the employment problem / the right to work & dignity would better serve Mullingar and any other community in Ireland.

Again, you are coming with the dignity here, if the council had enough human resources available to do the work, they would. If the work is good enough for a council worker, why is it suddenly below someone on the dole ? Do you have a problem with council workers?

As for the constructive thought, I have yet to hear a productive idea from you, just a load of bitter tripe about how this work is below unemployed people and they shouldn't be expected to contribute anything to the society that is paying for their human right to welfare.

An Ri rua wrote: »

The vast majority of people on the dole were VERY HAPPY WORKERS who now find themselves unable to find work and to live their lives with an amount of dignity. You do them no service whatsoever to blithely talk about their psychological 'needs' in such usurping fashion. They, like all of us, need to see radical change in order that real property values are reached, those who owe debts have them allocated properly to them (landlords are getting rentals way over what even the current yields should be and that's even before you consider that property is still subsidised and thousands of houses/mortgages exist in a twilight zone of being in arrears yet not repossessed and re-sold). They need to see professionals operating in a market where their fees come down along with the rest of our expectations and metrics.

Again with the dignity thing ?
And the expectations
And the market fees being dictated by the expectations of the unemployed ?
What have property values got to do with the topic exactly ?

An Ri rua wrote: »

We should seek more constructive imaginative work from those in employment generation agencies, those in local government, those in private companies (how many Westmeath companies could be getting part of the online retail market and STILL have done almost nothing about it) before we seek to demonise those who were former fellow workers and now, for reasons not of their making, are being tarred with the same brush that was used right through the boom for the 50,000 or so longterm unemployed (unemployable in many cases also).

Nobody is tarring anybody.
As for retail being in the toilet, that is the same the world over, and if you think that the move towards online retail will generate employment, think again. It will close stores, lose sales assistants, decimate urban centers and further erode the current value of CBD property. That may be the reason that employment generation agencies and local governments are unwilling to pop the lid off that box. We will live in a world of warehouse stackers and delivery drivers when that reaches it's fruition.
All that is being discussed is that in order to receive unemployment benefit, or to receive a bonus to unemployment benefit, an individual should be willing to contribute some skilled or unskilled labor towards a social need. At worst, it would be cleaning up the canal, or graffiti, or some gardening of public spaces etc. I would suggest if you think that is below you, that you perhaps examine the source of your disgust, perhaps your attitude is contributing to your difficulty in finding some sort of gainful employment ?

An Ri rua wrote: »

Have a bit more respect for your fellow citizens and a bit more imagination for your town than cleaning a canal. Get real.

I have every respect for them. I used to mow lawns, clip hedges, pick up the sh!te that people fly tip and help keep the area clean in my village growing up, for nothing...for tidy towns, for pride. And I used to work as outdoor staff for the county council, again, keeping my area clean, removing graffiti, picking up litter and all that goes with it(and no, that wasn't in my job description). Was I lowering myself ? or maybe just having some pride in who I was and where I was from, as opposed to false pride in who I perceive myself to be.

As for getting real, look at the budget. It's real.
Pensions were stolen to pay bankers and bondholders.
Money was borrowed to pay welfare to this generation that the next will have to pay back.
Quangos suck up funds to supervise the overseeing of the management in order to produce reports that nobody reads

Perhaps welfare recipients deserve money for nothing

I am not of that opinion

An Ri rua

@AngryHippie I clearly touched a nerve as you went to town dissecting my contribution.

3 points:-

1. I was born on a farm (farmer's dole is for those who are not producing sufficient income (you need to read deeper)), have been on the dole and have earned very high wages privately and reasonable wages from a public source.

2. Irish people spent well over €2BN online last year and most of that went abroad. You have a poor grasp of retail if you do not see the opportunities that are there for local businesses that smarten up. Both to serve their home markets and further afield. I've sold succesful e-commerce websites for 25k to successful SMEs, so again I know what I'm talking about. Its realists like you talking business down that does more harm than good. Adapt, don't moan.

3. Volunteering for clean-up duty or being paid to do it on the Council hardly equates to being blackmailed into it. Your arguments are quite poor and don't stand up at all. Did you know that those on JB can't use it to start in business for themselves? No, you probably don't. They have to wait it out for almost a year until they have been on Jobseekers' Allowance, by which time they may have lost the confidence. Wait, that's like dignity isn't it? What's that got to do with cleaning canals? Sigh.....

If you believe cleaning a canal has merit, perhaps you should go forward as a county councillor. They are crying out for visionary minds like yours in most of the parties. People on the dole are crying out for OPPORTUNITY, to restore their lives, to contribute. Not to clean a second-rate canal. Luckily, you will be out cleaning it though as you're a hardworking volunteer....

ps 'You can assure me....' Your responses reek of arrogance. So much so that you start off with false assumptions. Let me correct you. PROPERTY IS EVERYTHING in any economic discussion of importance in Ireland. How could it not be? It has infiltrated every value chain you can identify, distorting all sorts of markets for years to come. Money markets, job markets, take your pick. It will take years to unwind. You call me a dreamer, and yet you see cleaning out a canal (for pay) as good value when WaterWays Ireland are actively introducing policies that will erode any remaining commercial / tourist potentials on our inland waterways. There are much better ways to have people earn their keep; while helping them also. And yes, dignity is very important. Try your 19th century approach in any workplace and see how far you get. But your views of the 'unemployed' are so jaundiced that you can't even begin to think that they are not to blame for their predicament. You have an issue with discussing dignity yet you have an opinion on ' the depression that comes with long term unemployment'. Again, strange irrational arguments.

pps "Money was borrowed to pay welfare to this generation that the next will have to pay back" That's a bit rich. Are you protesting also the debts that this government has foisted on the next generation in your name and mine, instead of taking all of that pain now and purging all markets of the fluff and poison? Again, get real.

I have in the past put forward a number of costed plans to Féasta and to various Ministers. I would imagine that you have not.

AngryHippie

An Ri rua wrote: »

@AngryHippie I clearly touched a nerve as you went to town dissecting my contribution.

I felt that most of your points deserved a response.

An Ri rua wrote: »

Irish people spent over €2BN online last year and most of that went abroad. You have a poor grasp of retail if you do not see the opportunities that are there for local businesses that smarten up. Both to serve their home markets and further afield. I've sold websites for 25k to successful SMEs, so again I know what I'm talking about.

Opportunities how exactly ? Perhaps there are opportunities in the services industry, but unfortunately SME's in Ireland produce fcuk all of value to the online consumer overseas, the lions share of this market will remain in the domain of Amazon etc.
There is a big difference between web design, and turning a shop on Castle st into a viable web-based retail outlet.
There are opportunities, but not for outlets that already pay a mark-up to suppliers from overseas for the majority of their stock. This is a straw man argument and is still a non-solution in terms of employment, as the benefits of the online retail are to slash your overheads (maintaining a prominent POS, trade assistants etc.) Slashing of which has a net effect of less employment. I'm not suggesting that you don't know what you are doing with web design and web retail, but you are talking out of your hat about it's effect on the local economy. Particularly where there is no manufacture or value adding happening in-country.

An Ri rua wrote: »

3. Volunteering for clean-up duty or being paid to do it on the Council hardly equates to being blackmailed into it. Your arguments are quite poor and don't stand up at all.

Nobody is being blackmailed. The initial discussion was about a simple expectation of getting some level of service or effort in order to collect a welfare payment. Your point of view supports an unsustainable and inequitable system (which currently exists) at the expense of an opportunity for some service to the state, which it currently doesn't have the resources to undertake (but nonetheless needs to be undertaken or further decay of urban centers is inevitable)

An Ri rua wrote: »

If you believe cleaning a canal has merit, perhaps you should go forward as a county councillor. They are crying out for visionary minds like yours in most of the parties. People on the dole are crying out for OPPORTUNITY, to restore their lives, to contribute. Not to clean a second-rate canal. Luckily, you will be out cleaning it though as you're a hardworking volunteer....

If you believe that a canal full of litter, shopping trolleys and debris, or parks full of litter, or housing estates with tags all over them, broken fences and boarded up windows shows anything positive about a town then your head is all the way up your clacker.
Of course there is merit to having a clean navigable canal, god forbid some sort of tourism or recreational activity might break out FFS.
This is an opportunity for people to contribute, in a real way, and your attitude towards the place you live sucks btw. There is nothing second rate about the canal, only the way it has been neglected and treated. It has the potential to be a serious local amenity rather than the non-point in a ridiculous argument.
As it happens, I won't be cleaning it, as I am lucky enough to have gainful employment, and my contributions to the issue are made in the form of income tax. But I really do appreciate your snide remark and sarcastic tone. It goes a long way to making a statement about your character.

Time Now Please

AngryHippie wrote: »

I felt that most of your points deserved a response.


Opportunities how exactly ? Perhaps there are opportunities in the services industry, but unfortunately SME's in Ireland produce fcuk all of value to the online consumer overseas, the lions share of this market will remain in the domain of Amazon etc.
There is a big difference between web design, and turning a shop on Castle st into a viable web-based retail outlet.
There are opportunities, but not for outlets that already pay a mark-up to suppliers from overseas for the majority of their stock. This is a straw man argument and is still a non-solution in terms of employment, as the benefits of the online retail are to slash your overheads (maintaining a prominent POS, trade assistants etc.) Slashing of which has a net effect of less employment. I'm not suggesting that you don't know what you are doing with web design and web retail, but you are talking out of your hat about it's effect on the local economy. Particularly where there is no manufacture or value adding happening in-country.




Nobody is being blackmailed. The initial discussion was about a simple expectation of getting some level of service or effort in order to collect a welfare payment. Your point of view supports an unsustainable and inequitable system (which currently exists) at the expense of an opportunity for some service to the state, which it currently doesn't have the resources to undertake (but nonetheless needs to be undertaken or further decay of urban centers is inevitable)


If you believe that a canal full of litter, shopping trolleys and debris, or parks full of litter, or housing estates with tags all over them, broken fences and boarded up windows shows anything positive about a town then your head is all the way up your clacker.
Of course there is merit to having a clean navigable canal, god forbid some sort of tourism or recreational activity might break out FFS.
This is an opportunity for people to contribute, in a real way, and your attitude towards the place you live sucks btw. There is nothing second rate about the canal, only the way it has been neglected and treated. It has the potential to be a serious local amenity rather than the non-point in a ridiculous argument.
As it happens, I won't be cleaning it, as I am lucky enough to have gainful employment, and my contributions to the issue are made in the form of income tax. But I really do appreciate your snide remark and sarcastic tone. It goes a long way to making a statement about your character.

I don't think anybody has any issues surrounding the cleaning of the canal, however may I remind those in gainful employment that they too are only one pay cheque away from being in the same position of those Milly Walsh is referring to, let us not forget that. as one poster has already said that people who are unemployed would love to get back to contributing to society, believe me it is no joke receiving a pittance every week and the monthly signing on charade which is so demoralising.

The initial point that was made related to Milly Walsh talking out of both sides of his mouth, on one hand he wants the unemployed to work for the pittance they receive but on the other hand he will not refuse their money in his shop or petrol station. If he wanted to help the unemployed he could involve himself with one of the many agencies that help unemployed people to source full or part-time work instead of pis"ing down on them. In fact he has a member of his own extended family working part-time washing cars while other staff work full-time hours in the shop. He can't have it everyway, I still haven't seen any further statement from Milly Walsh regarding his comments. :rolleyes:

Busted Flat.

This silly old $hite of people working for the dole and under the minimum in earnings, is a joke. All it will take is someone to take it to the EU court of human rights, and kicking the can further down the road, it will cost our kids a fortune in compensation. What sort of overpaid clowns thinks these ideas up.

nice_guy80

I don't see anything wrong with long term dole scroungers having to earn their free money.

Some people have never worked a day.
Is that right?

I also think people convicted of crimes in the local community should have to do.community service eg gardening public spaces, painting graffeti walls, cleaning the canal.

Busted Flat.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with long term dole scroungers having to earn their free money.

Some people have never worked a day.
Is that right?

I also think people convicted of crimes in the local community should have to do.community service eg gardening public spaces, painting graffeti walls, cleaning the canal.

It seems people in secure pensionable jobs share that sort of opinion, some have children who have not reached the age of looking for a job. Will your opinion be the same when they reach that age, maybe your nieces or nephews, get there as well. What will be your opinion then. Can you imagine driving home in the evening, now that the evenings are getting brighter, and seeing your niece walking home in wellington's,from her days work, working for nothing. Will you give her a lift and drop a food parcel to her parents. Get a life.

AngryHippie

Busted Flat. wrote: »

working for nothing.


Get a life.

As opposed to the wonderfully sustainable current situation of the gubberment borrowing money, so they can hand it out to people who won't return any service for it ?
That is the reality. That is what is being burdened on the next generation. your grandchildren will be doing well to afford wellies or a home to walk back to the way things are going.

Can you count ?
basic arithmetic will tell you what the future holds unless there is some benefit to society for all the benefit they hand out.

It's a farce, and to be quite honest attitudes like I've seen here are a major part of the problem. Entitlements ?

You are entitled to fcuk all in this life, death and taxes, that is the reality. Expecting some bureaucrat in Brussels or Leinster house to keep handing over cash for votes cannot last.

I do understand that having qualified tradesmen and professionals doing manual work is not an ideal situation, but when the alternative is having them sit at home doing nothing , then why can you not see the net gain of doing something purposeful ?

I have yet to see any point beyond a sense of entitlement and an attitude of the work being below them as to why it wouldn't be a good idea, so unless that changes, this will be my last post on the topic.

Busted Flat.

AngryHippie wrote: »

As opposed to the wonderfully sustainable current situation of the gubberment borrowing money, so they can hand it out to people who won't return any service for it ?
That is the reality. That is what is being burdened on the next generation. your grandchildren will be doing well to afford wellies or a home to walk back to the way things are going.

Can you count ?
basic arithmetic will tell you what the future holds unless there is some benefit to society for all the benefit they hand out.

It's a farce, and to be quite honest attitudes like I've seen here are a major part of the problem. Entitlements ?

You are entitled to fcuk all in this life, death and taxes, that is the reality. Expecting some bureaucrat in Brussels or Leinster house to keep handing over cash for votes cannot last.

I do understand that having qualified tradesmen and professionals doing manual work is not an ideal situation, but when the alternative is having them sit at home doing nothing , then why can you not see the net gain of doing something purposeful ?

I have yet to see any point beyond a sense of entitlement and an attitude of the work being below them as to why it wouldn't be a good idea, so unless that changes, this will be my last post on the topic.

The Nazis and the Russians had ideas like yours, why not exterminate the unemployed, the old and the sick, you could throw in the odd unmarried mother and sell her child, (oh wait the Nuns and the church have experience in the latter), to satisfy the right wing loolaghs.

AngryHippie

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The Nazis and the Russians had ideas like yours, why not exterminate the unemployed, the old and the sick, you could throw in the odd unmarried mother and sell her child, (oh wait the Nuns and the church have experience in the latter), to satisfy the right wing loolaghs.

Godwins Law For the win.

Congratulations you've just made my day. (21 posts has to be some sort of record on the Regions forum.....)

Also by the way, an almost classic example of the lesser spotted Godwinicus Failerus, practically satisfies every condition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I might even link to it on wikipedia and urban dictionary as a working example

An Ri rua

AngryHippie wrote: »

As opposed to the wonderfully sustainable current situation of the gubberment borrowing money, so they can hand it out to people who won't return any service for it ?
That is the reality. That is what is being burdened on the next generation. your grandchildren will be doing well to afford wellies or a home to walk back to the way things are going.

Can you count ?
basic arithmetic will tell you what the future holds unless there is some benefit to society for all the benefit they hand out.

It's a farce, and to be quite honest attitudes like I've seen here are a major part of the problem. Entitlements ?

You are entitled to fcuk all in this life, death and taxes, that is the reality. Expecting some bureaucrat in Brussels or Leinster house to keep handing over cash for votes cannot last.

I do understand that having qualified tradesmen and professionals doing manual work is not an ideal situation, but when the alternative is having them sit at home doing nothing , then why can you not see the net gain of doing something purposeful ?

I have yet to see any point beyond a sense of entitlement and an attitude of the work being below them as to why it wouldn't be a good idea, so unless that changes, this will be my last post on the topic.

The social welfare budget as a burden on future generations is a drop in the ocean when contrasted with the bank debts that we have rolled over and put off paying until our children grow up and can pay it in their lifetime.

You are right, a culture of entitlement is a huge part of why we are where we are today; and that unfortunately includes the strongly expressed entitlement of those who invested in property (most strongly expressed in the off-balance sheet vehicle that is NAMA). Those who are in debt refuse to allow markets to work correctly as they would be wiped out. The unemployed contains a mix of those who are also embroiled in the property disease and also those who didn't even get a taste of property ownership but worked diligently in low-paying jobs (govt clerical, hotel workers etc etc) and now are being hit (along with the working poor) with charge after charge in order to shore up cash/input hungry semi-state and state bodies.

I just feel strongly that cleaning a canal for the sake of getting a return from welfare costs is short-sighted (Its also counter-productive as I've already pointed out as Waterways Ireland is pushing for a curtailment of boating activities on our canals as we speak). The aim should be to see how best to utilise resources, which is what the collective workforce is. I think its fair to say that our government and public service leaders are letting us down badly. They need to remove all barriers to market liquidity (workforce and property) and then get out of the way.

I do appreciate that we do have to question the strategy and ideology of welfare for nothing, but my belief is that, in our current 'fixed' market, where legislation is swiftly enacted to engineer safety for those who were greedy (that is the simple essence of NAMA), that social welfare could be seen as a compensation for a denial of making an honest living. Can we have full employment? Hard to say. But it should be the goal of societal leaders. We are all in agreement that people have an expectation and a right to work or make a living and that it is soul-destroying and generation-rotting not to do so. No one really wants a welfare state or mentality. All I'm asking for is a bit more anger towards the 'fat' that is in many wage packets, particularly those tasked with steering our society. Until that receives the same bile that is targetted towards those who genuinely wish to be working and earning, then we are simply targetting the weakened and disadvantaged.

For instance, the fuel allowance is €20pw. Thousands upon thousands of open fires burn €20pw and 80% of that heat and welfare goes up the chimney. Why didn't the government implement a stove / insert stove/ grate heat transfer unit (e.g. Ecograte.ie) policy and employ perhaps 100-200 of our construction workers to fit out these homes. 80% of the welfare subsidy would now be contributing to warmer homes or less fuel allowance required; once the return on investment was achieved (2-3 years depending on fitout). No doubt improving health also. Less physical and financial stress that arises from fuel poverty.

There are countless examples like this; where government, at local and national level, has let down its people badly and allowed 'us and them' scenarios to deepen. Whether its public v private sector or unemployed vs employed. Or paye vs self-employed or farmers.
I was guilty of one or two snide remarks and I apologise to AngryHippie for that tone but its only because I feel very deeply for the unemployed people involved (for young school-leavers, we should have mandatory civil /army / whatever duty for 12-16 weeks to instil citizenship and work ethic; it IS sadly lacking. But that's NOT kids' fault). Let's fight for a smarter country and expect more from leaders in government, in Enterprise Boards, in Leader, in Tourism/Heritage roles. Almost to a man/woman, they are underperforming and staying 'safe' (same again/ don't rock the boat/ hand on the tiller mentality) rather than taking risks to visualise and implement a better future. Many of our assets, be they people, heritage sites, native industries (e.g. whiskey) are scandalously under-utilised to date. Why? Because the people occupying many of our key roles lack BELIEF INTELLIGENCE. The greatest scandal in Ireland is the ongoing lack of talent in key gatekeeper positions. And so those unlucky enough to be unemployed get to work on a JobBridge scheme and learn how to wash a car or wait on tables....

If we are going to demand value for money, let's agree that we need it everywhere. Its sadly easier to implement with those who are getting a handout.

AngryHippie

Thats more like it !!!!

I now see where you are coming from on the bigger picture. I also completely understand your rage now.




Not to be too negative, but....
Considering the calibre of individual (and their relative expertise in the sectors they are delegated to govern....Ex teacher as minister of Finance etc.) Do you really think that they are capable of devising a scheme that will actually be as well thought out or coherent as any of those you have outlined ?
The sad truth of the country is that it is being run by a bunch of popularity contest entrants (show ponies) that haven't a notion of how to actually run an efficient public service and are only serving themselves in order to get re-elected. Alongside this we have a civil service who jump straight into "computer says no" when some initiative or extra effort is required, happily shoveling the "too hard" pile around in circles and punching in their time.

This is not the environment from which initiative, vision or progress comes. Until that changes, expect more of the same.

In the meantime, a baby step on the way, is to shift away from the entitlement mindset, and move towards a reward based system to try and stop the rot on a social level. On it's own, that will enable people to work for reward, and could easily be the first step along the way to motivating people to finally sack all of the mandarins and clowns that have parked themselves on the hard shoulder of the civil service.

we are approaching the topic from two very different avenues.

You are saying why should people do something for nothing, which I understand in the sense that if you were doing it for Anglo, or Nama or Leinster house, fcuk them, they caused the problem. But that still isn't accurate. You are doing something for a reward, (payment) and the something doesn't benefit Enda Kenny, or Seanie Fitz, it benefits you, and your community. Mutual Benefit.

I am saying why should people get something for nothing. As in, why would I bother paying tax, which gets diverted into supporting two or three generations of a family that has never had an income, picks up the mickey money and dole every week, lives in a house paid for by the state, and then has a whinge when something is expected in return ?

Don't let those generational bludgers hide behind the honest folk who are down on their luck. They won't be allergic to a days work, and will get something from it. The problematic ones will then stick out like dogs balls and can be dealt with appropriately.

nice_guy80

I think a bit of national or community service would do most people some good.

If you are getting free money off the state having not worked up entitlements to it, then what harm could a few hours work do?

If you don't like it, try much harder to get a job. Take a job. Any job. Better than sitting on your hole all week.

Busted Flat.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think a bit of national or community service would do most people some good.

If you are getting free money off the state having not worked up entitlements to it, then what harm could a few hours work do?

If you don't like it, try much harder to get a job. Take a job. Any job. Better than sitting on your hole all week.

John Bruton, Liam Cosgrave, Albert Reynolds, Dick Spring, Bertie ahern, Brian Cowan, Big bird Robinson, Senior civil servants, Judges, and ex ceo's of banks, and semi state companies, they are the parasites that are bleeding the country.
Not the carpenters plasters, electricians, and general people that have worked hard all their lives to reach the stage where they are to old to get another job, that could have worked on for several years as subcontractors their lives were taken off them by the greedy. If your canal is stuffed with weeds and you can't get your barge, or your boat that you got with cash get out and do it yourself. Fook of ye greedy well paid pensioned parasites.

AngryHippie

Are you trying to tell me that your list of statesmen above were not elected by the

Busted Flat. wrote: »

carpenters plasters, electricians, and general people that have worked hard all their lives

As for the

Busted Flat. wrote: »

ex ceo's of banks, and semi state companies

Yes, I would agree that many of them are parasites, and have milked the public purse for all it's worth then then had a golden handshake on their way to the next quango. But what has that got to do with the price of turnips ?
If you want your public officials to be accountable, you must hold them accountable. Unfortunately the Republic of Ireland has a catastrophic track record, with the list of tribunals and sums of money spent on them far outweighing the public benefit or actual prosecutions dealt out by the same investigations.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

to reach the stage where they are to old to get another job, that could have worked on for several years as subcontractors their lives were taken off them by the greedy.

Rabble Rabble ? Rhubarb ?

Busted Flat. wrote: »

If your canal is stuffed with weeds and you can't get your barge, or your boat that you got with cash get out and do it yourself. Fook of ye greedy well paid pensioned parasites.

This is a fairly moronic statement to be fair.
The main reason to keep that Canal open at this stage would be as a tourist attraction. There is a significant industry in the UK, France, and indeed around the Irish canals in hiring barges and pleasure craft. Cash that would go directly to local business, possibly from well paid pensioners or retired people, but if they have money to spend, are you saying you would turn away their cash and keep the canal looking like a rubbish tip merely because they have disposable income that you don't ?

There is a lot of bitterness coming out in your posts, and you are really trying to make this topic about all of societies ills, when to be fair it's not.
If you want a stick to beat the government with, pick something like the healthcare system, or education, something that matters to everyone, not just to the minority that can't find work. It's not productive, and it only leads to more negativity.

If you can't see the merits to such a concept, and it's ease of implementation, then you are ignoring some pretty obvious facts.
If you want to make the discussion about something else, try a new thread, there are plenty bashing the gubberment and the jobsbridge farce etc.
But don't knock a valid concept because of a personal hangup, bring some relevant argument to the discussion.

VNP

Feck the canal.. its no tourist gold mine, waterways argument is ridiculouness, most of the skutter in it is wrappers and cans from Millies anyway :P
With the right emphasis on doing the work of cleaning up your local environment eg canal, the mild physical exertion in the out doors and accomplishment of tidying an amenity could have a huge benefit for many people who have had a hard few years trying to get their careers back on track and have been manning the couch 24/7, getting little of the already dismal amount of vitamin D available.

If run properly it could be a social outlet benefiting the participants, great for those who could locally access such a scheme. To roll out something like that nationally so as everyone could have a suitable or fair job to tackle seems far fetched would cause resentment and even more begrudgery, the last dying breed of politicians would never do it. Doubt Milly meant to start a coolhand luke chain gang scenario(maybe he did?). Hardboiled egg eating competition in paradise and a few cans anyone?