Northern Rental in the South

boombang

Does anybody know if there is any limit on the length of time a rental car from the North can be driven in the south?

If there is no limit, does this in principle extend to cars that are leased on a longer term, as opposed to a short-term rental?

Thanks

bazz26

I'd say you would have to check with the specific rental company, it may vary from company to company.

slimjimmc

boombang wrote: »

Does anybody know if there is any limit on the length of time a rental car from the North can be driven in the south?

If there is no limit, does this in principle extend to cars that are leased on a longer term, as opposed to a short-term rental?

Thanks

From Revenue's point of view you can have it here for up to 12 months (or longer subject to their approval) so long as you are not a State resident . If you are a State resident you can't drive it here at all, not even for a day unless you qualify for the exemptions (e.g business use).

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

CiniO

slimjimmc wrote: »

From Revenue's point of view you can have it here for up to 12 months (or longer subject to their approval) so long as you are not a State resident . If you are a State resident you can't drive it here at all, not even for a day unless you qualify for the exemptions (e.g business use).

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

Are you sure there are no exemptions for rental cars?

I'm ROI resident.
Are you saying that if I go abroad for few weeks, and want to come back here to ROI in the mean time with rental car from abroad - I can't do it?


What about ROI resident driving up to the north in his own ROI registered car and breaking down. Let's say his vehicle ends up in garage in the north, and that person receives a rental car (northern registered) for time of repair (say 2 weeks). So that person can not return to ROI and drive here in this rental car? This is all madness if that's really how it works.

Drummerboy08

I'd be surprised if you could lease a car on any kind of long term basis as the leasing company/finance company wont want their asset leaving the country on a long term basis.

CiniO

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if you could lease a car on any kind of long term basis as the leasing company/finance company wont want their asset leaving the country on a long term basis.

I'm not sure if that's very relevant, but many Polish companies lease car from Czech car leasing providers. So effectively a good bit of Czech registered cars being driven in Poland as employees of Polish companies have them as company cars.

boombang

slimjimmc wrote: »

From Revenue's point of view you can have it here for up to 12 months (or longer subject to their approval) so long as you are not a State resident . If you are a State resident you can't drive it here at all, not even for a day unless you qualify for the exemptions (e.g business use).

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

Thanks for the replies.

My motivation for asking was I was musing about legally avoiding high Irish road tax on large engine capacity/CO2 vehicles using a leasing arrangement from the North. The idea being that the ownership remains outside of the state, so the road tax liability lies there. I had imagined that on the basis of free movement of services within the EU there couldn't really be a limit on the use of a foreign registered/owned vehicles. I know this is maybe just a hypothetical, but I thought it worth asking. I'm going look at the revenue link now.

Drummerboy08

Case of different strokes there.

Ultimately it would depend on how the car is financed but I know in ireland and the UK it isnt really allowed.

boombang

slimjimmc wrote: »

If you are a State resident you can't drive it here at all, not even for a day (e.g business use).

Yep, that's what the link you posted says.

This is interesting that the tax status of the vehicle is tied to the State of residency of the driver rather than the State of registration or ownership of the vehicle.

Is it possible for Irish tax legislation to trump what would seem to be the free movement of services in Europe?

If so I guess this rules out any tax avoidance scheme I had imagined. I had thought that Irish residents could "sell" their high tax cars to a Northern holding company, so the cars then would only be liable for cheap UK road tax, the former owners could then lease their cars for use in Ireland at nominal rates. Some attention would need to be paid to the insurance arrangements.

Part of the motivation for this is the nearly 2k road tax that applies to some large engined cars. Consequently, some older premium cars often have very low second hand prices. I thought it could be a way to enjoy luxobarge driving without penal Irish road tax. Personally I was considering an early 2000s Jag might be nice.

Thanks again for the input.

bazz26

The high tax on these cars down here is factored into the second hand market value of them. Cars that cost more to tax normally cost less to buy.

boombang

bazz26 wrote: »

The high tax on these cars down here is factored into the second hand market value of them. Cars that cost more to tax normally cost less to buy.

Exactly, was thinking it would be nice to buy cheap Irish car, re-register in the North but drive in Ireland.

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

Are you sure there are no exemptions for rental cars?

I'm ROI resident.
Are you saying that if I go abroad for few weeks, and want to come back here to ROI in the mean time with rental car from abroad - I can't do it?


What about ROI resident driving up to the north in his own ROI registered car and breaking down. Let's say his vehicle ends up in garage in the north, and that person receives a rental car (northern registered) for time of repair (say 2 weeks). So that person can not return to ROI and drive here in this rental car? This is all madness if that's really how it works.

Yeah, that's how I read it based on the info from Revenue's site.

ironclaw

boombang wrote: »

Exactly, was thinking it would be nice to buy cheap Irish car, re-register in the North but drive in Ireland.

Thats definitely a big red flag. You cannot drive a Northern registered car in the south if you are a resident here. And honestly, its a whole lot of trouble for a marginal saving. I have family members on UK plates who occasional bring the cars home for Christmas etc (2 to 3 weeks) They are not tax resident but Irish citizens and all carry buckets of paperwork to prove this. Customs are quick to pick up on these things.

A friend of mine bought a 2004 S-Class for peanuts about 6 months ago. Big block, massive motor tax of which it came with a few months. But the cost of the fuel to put into it quickly levelled the field. I think he was dropping close to €150 a week. The worst its going to be in tax is €1800, which you'll spend in fuel in about 3 to 4 months anyway. All these cars are going for half nothing at the moment given the strength of the 'I want a diesel come hell or high water' brigade. If the motor tax makes you want to try a tax dodge, I can only imagine what will happen when you want to put fuel in the thing!

So I honestly don't see how you think it makes financial sense to do this Maybe you've spotted something I can't see?

wonski

boombang wrote: »

Exactly, was thinking it would be nice to buy cheap Irish car, re-register in the North but drive in Ireland.

Of course it would be nice, and that is why it isn't allowed. Most of the forum members would do that - especially those paying 2k a year to tax their car;)

benjamin d

I have a semi-related question. There's a good chance I may be moving up North in the next few weeks for a new job. The job is full time and permanent, but I'm not sure yet if I'll stay there more than about a year.
Can I get away with changing my car's details from where I am now to my parents house (in the Republic) and just drive around on my ROI tax/insurance etc., or do I have to change to NI reg straight away?
If I do will it be expensive to convert back to ROI plates relatively soon after changing (i.e if I move back south after a year)?

slimjimmc

benjamin d wrote: »

I have a semi-related question. There's a good chance I may be moving up North in the next few weeks for a new job. The job is full time and permanent, but I'm not sure yet if I'll stay there more than about a year.
Can I get away with changing my car's details from where I am now to my parents house (in the Republic) and just drive around on my ROI tax/insurance etc., or do I have to change to NI reg straight away?
If I do will it be expensive to convert back to ROI plates relatively soon after changing (i.e if I move back south after a year)?

Normally you can keep it in the UK for 6 months out of 12 as a temporary import.

If you do decide to import you can avoid registration taxes and other bureaucracy by registering it as a Personal Import, so long as you can show you used it here for at least 6 months.

Under Irish law if your family ties (e.g family, assets) are outside the state you are not classed as resident for this purpose so you can keep your foreign reg car here as long as you want. I don't know if N.I. have a similar law.

benjamin d

Thanks for that, will check out those links!

boombang

ironclaw wrote: »

I can only imagine what will happen when you want to put fuel in the thing!

I think you're right. I think it would only really make sense for somebody who didn't daily drive the luxobarge. Interesting and useful to hear people's thoughts on this.

Sheldons Brain

For the OP any rational rental operator in NI will be reluctant to rent you a vehicle and have it seized by the customs in the 26 counties when you are basically trying to evade tax.

There's a good chance I may be moving up North in the next few weeks for a new job. The job is full time and permanent, but I'm not sure yet if I'll stay there more than about a year.
Can I get away with changing my car's details from where I am now to my parents house (in the Republic) and just drive around on my ROI tax/insurance etc., or do I have to change to NI reg straight away?

If your normal residence remains in the Republic you can (and indeed must) drive the ROI car indefinitely, as your personal ties are there that is the case. In practical terms you won't have a problem in NI as ROI cars are more expensive and you are coming and going. The only issue is that you may not be entirely honest with your insurance company, if you claim the car is in rural Galway when really mostly parked in Belfast. If you are going to remain in NI the obvious thing to do is sell the car and buy another in NI at some convenient time.

benjamin d

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

If your normal residence remains in the Republic you can (and indeed must) drive the ROI car indefinitely, as your personal ties are there that is the case. In practical terms you won't have a problem in NI as ROI cars are more expensive and you are coming and going. The only issue is that you may not be entirely honest with your insurance company, if you claim the car is in rural Galway when really mostly parked in Belfast. If you are going to remain in NI the obvious thing to do is sell the car and buy another in NI at some convenient time.

That's what I was worried about; I'd have to change my address to my parents house that I haven't lived in for years and don't even visit very often either, so I wonder does that still count as being my personal ties as I have none elsewhere really.
I think my insurance covers 30 days driving outside ROI so I'd definitely be going over that by a long way. I suppose I'd be technically without insurance if something happened?
It just seems like a load of hassle for a potentially short spell up north but I suppose them's the rules! :rolleyes: It's a pity there's no cross-border system in place for this type of situation because I'm sure it must be fairly common.

Sheldons Brain

You can tell the insurance company that you'll be staying in North for work purposes if you wish.

Northern Monkey

benjamin d wrote: »

That's what I was worried about; I'd have to change my address to my parents house that I haven't lived in for years and don't even visit very often either, so I wonder does that still count as being my personal ties as I have none elsewhere really.
I think my insurance covers 30 days driving outside ROI so I'd definitely be going over that by a long way. I suppose I'd be technically without insurance if something happened?
It just seems like a load of hassle for a potentially short spell up north but I suppose them's the rules! :rolleyes: It's a pity there's no cross-border system in place for this type of situation because I'm sure it must be fairly common.

If you don't claim any VRT back it will cost you £55 to transfer your car to UK plates (plus an Mot if it needs one). If you aren't sure about how long you are going to stay I would do it without the VRT reclaim as at least then you won't have to find a lump sum to repay it if you are going to bring the car back onto Irish plates.

stealthyspeeder

This topic was the subject of a complaint against the Revenue. The ombudsman's investigation highlights the relevant points.

http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Investigation-Reports/government-departments-other-public-bodies/The-Revenue-Commissioners-and-Random-Car-Seizures/Chapter-3-Review-of-Legislation-and-Relevant-Material.html

If your "NORMAL RESIDENCE" is outside the state, you can drive a foreign registered vehicle in the state. (leased or owned)

If your "NORMAL RESIDENCE" is inside the state, you cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle in the state. (leased or owned)

R.O.R

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

If your "NORMAL RESIDENCE" is inside the state, you cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle in the state. (leased or owned)

There is an exception available to this:

If you live ROI, but work, and use the vehicle predominantly in NI, then you can get a Revenue exception. This is issued in the form of a letter from the Revenue, which is to be carried in the vehicle at all times.

Only aware of this as a customer told me, because they have a driver who works in NI, but lives just over the border. He's in a UK leased vehicle as his office and teritory is in NI.

stealthyspeeder

R.O.R wrote: »

There is an exception available to this:

If you live ROI, but work, and use the vehicle predominantly in NI, then you can get a Revenue exception. This is issued in the form of a letter from the Revenue, which is to be carried in the vehicle at all times.

Only aware of this as a customer told me, because they have a driver who works in NI, but lives just over the border. He's in a UK leased vehicle as his office and teritory is in NI.

True!

This is not supported by legislation though, and is granted exclusively on a concessionary basis by Revenue (so if this is needed, you should ask nicely!).

Also, as its not supported by legislation, the Revenue can change their mind on this and revoke/remove this concession on a whim.

boombang

Just for the sake of completeness, I went back and had another look at the Services Directive. While it seems the services directive does apply to car rental, and so the restriction on placed by Revenue rules on Irish residents seems to conflict with the directive, article 89 of the directive seems to say that there is an exclusion regarding the registration of leased vehicles, which would seem to explain why we can't drive northern rentals in the south as Irish residents.

Unfortunately article 89 is not written in plain English, so I can't interpret it easily. Also, a quick Google around didn't turn up much on this.