Posts of Responsibility

Way over

Sorry if it's not relevant here but I can't find anywhere more suitable..it used to be one and a half hours for a B post and Four hours for an A post. Now our principal tells us we should be giving eight hours per week to A post duties and be prepared to have meetings after school or lunchtime - over and above Haddington Rd. I am currently a year head to 80 sixth years, policy co-ordinator, responsible for school plan and part examinations secretary, checking exam entries and collecting fees. I actually feel I am overburdened as it is without taking on additional duties.

seavill

Why don't you start a thread for it. It's a pretty big topic on its own.

I can't see how you can put a number on any of these jobs to be honest. They are all so varied and require so many different amounts of commitment.
I know year head isn't a post at all in some schools but I personally belive it should be an A post and in all reality theres no way you can put a number on that job.

You are doing way too much in a post from my opinion. Seems a crazy workload, although in my school there are 2 people doing a massive work load and others barely doing anything for their post.
I have never seen a number put on posts anywhere. Did you try the ASTI website?
It seems to me you are doing too much, have al these always been part of your post or have things been added in recently. I would look for a review of the posts of responsibility if I were you. Are others with posts doing that amount or whats the story?

Way over

New review of posts coming up.......we are being asked which new areas we would like to become involved in, no word of losing any duties. And yes, the workload has been added to over the years. Feel I'm a bit of a doormat really. I will stare a new thread.. Thanks for your help.

whiteandlight

New thread created

Pwpane

Way over wrote: »

Sorry if it's not relevant here but I can't find anywhere more suitable..it used to be one and a half hours for a B post and Four hours for an A post. Now our principal tells us we should be giving eight hours per week to A post duties and be prepared to have meetings after school or lunchtime - over and above Haddington Rd. I am currently a year head to 80 sixth years, policy co-ordinator, responsible for school plan and part examinations secretary, checking exam entries and collecting fees. I actually feel I am overburdened as it is without taking on additional duties.

This is a ridiculous amount of work already. I'm not sure how you get your normal teaching duties done with that amount of extra work on top. And now you're being asked to double the time given?

There was never a number of hours required per post. The idea was that you got the job done, not that you worked a certain number of hours. This is more of being paid per hour, rather than for the job - which is turning teaching into a paid job rather than a salaried profession. It's also a perhaps over-burdened principal pawning off some of his/her job onto you. In effect, you are being asked to carry the burden created by the govt in reducing/abolishing posts of responsibility.

Check out the allowance given: €8520 for an AP post. At 8 hours per week for 34 weeks per year (if you do no AP work in the hols), that is equivalent to €31 per hour for management duties compared to €36.76 per hour for an unqualified casual part-time position. Are the principal and deputy being paid less than the unqualified rate to do the job that you are 'assisting' them with?

I suggest that you organise an outside meeting of post-holders to for a chat about the situation, maybe a cup of coffee in a local hotel. People probably are willing to do extra in the current situation and 'get on with it', but perhaps not so much extra. Or perhaps less. It might quiet your mind to get a feeling from the rest of the group. It could also lead to a meeting of post-holders with the principal and deputy to talk about matters and iron out an agreement, rather than accepting a diktat.

km79

Are you given time within your timetable currently to carry out your duties? A reduced timetbale of 18 hours?

Way over

Yes, 18 hours class contact + 5 S/S. Apparently the reasoning is use those four hours and give four more, but there's just not enough hours in the day!!!! Just wondering what's happening in other schools. I think some of the jobs they're trying to offload are things like the S/S rota. Basically we were told "if we weren't paying your post money, we could pay a secretary". I have been teaching for over thirty years and have never, ever heard of an eight hour requirement.

seavill

There is an upside. A post holders in many school don't get th 4 hour allowance so have a full 22 hour week plus doing whatever the post entails so in fairness you will now prob be brought in line with a lot of teachers.
However there are too many tasks to your post still

RH149

You do seem to be doing a lot for your post- those duties you describe are done by an A and two B post holders in my school but on the other hand we still have a full timetable of 22 hours plus S&S if not opted out so it's hard to say how much more you are doing given you have 4 hours off that a post holder in our school wouldn't have.....still seems a lot and I'd be resisting any efforts to add more jobs to your post duties given the extra burdens foisted on us by HRA.

Off topic I know but why is there such a discrepancy in the 18 hrs v 22 hrs for A post holders depending on whether you're VEC or Secondary? Surely we're all on the same pay scale....why are the hours different? Not being critical, just always wondered why?

ethical

It is rather shocking to see that some teachers are on 18 class contact hours while others have to do the full 22 hours and still do their post as well as all the other HRA stuff.Recently,in a smaller secondary school. a colleague who is a year hd for 1st and 2nd years (around 70 students) sat down at 3:50pm for a ptm and finished at 7:50pm after a full day teaching and she had the same again the next day,another full timetable.The Principal did not even say 'thanks'.My God we have been sold down the river by a bunch of imbeciles and its not going to get better any day soon.

Pwpane

Why would you look to the principal for thanks for taking part in a parent-teacher meeting? I don't meet parents for the benefit of the principal - I don't see your logic?

And it's a bit rich to call your colleagues a bunch of imbeciles, no matter how annoyed you are!

ethical

...the Union who are supposed to look after our 'deteriorating' conditions are the 'bunch of imbeciles' As for getting a 'thank you' from a Principal,do not bother going there,the 'customer service ' in Ireland compared to our near neighbours is non- comparable!

Pwpane

It was the ordinary teachers on the ground who voted HRA into force against union advice. I thought that's what you meant by being sold down the river because we wouldn't be doing the parent-teacher meetings if they hadn't.

Please explain what you meant by the customer service model in our nearest neighbours. You surely don't mean that the English system is better because the principal might thank you occasionally?

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

It is rather shocking to see that some teachers are on 18 class contact hours while others have to do the full 22 hours and still do their post as well as all the other HRA stuff.Recently,in a smaller secondary school. a colleague who is a year hd for 1st and 2nd years (around 70 students) sat down at 3:50pm for a ptm and finished at 7:50pm after a full day teaching and she had the same again the next day,another full timetable.The Principal did not even say 'thanks'.My God we have been sold down the river by a bunch of imbeciles and its not going to get better any day soon.

If the Ptm was for one year then I would assume the cohort is about 35 ! 4 hrs for 35 (or 70 even!) students sounds a bit inefficient to me. If the issues are that serious and prevalent then something bigger is going on that the year head should have been aware of.
But yes a simple thanks would have been nice...although on the flip side maybe the teacher should have been thanking the principal for allowing them to stay on. If I were waiting to lock up I think id be gritting my teeth watching the clock and jiggling the keys.

implausible

ethical wrote: »

Recently,in a smaller secondary school. a colleague who is a year hd for 1st and 2nd years (around 70 students) sat down at 3:50pm for a ptm and finished at 7:50pm after a full day teaching and she had the same again the next day,another full timetable.The Principal did not even say 'thanks'.

I'm not a year head and have often being kept past 6:45 speaking to parents. It's par for the course that the year head is going to be in more demand with parents. Some schools are good at moving people on and getting parents out at 6:45, but in reality, lots of us don't leave while there is a parent standing there waiting to speak to you.

Is the principal supposed to individually thank each member of staff for taking part in a parent-teacher meeting?

HRA21

RH149 wrote: »

You do seem to be doing a lot for your post- those duties you describe are done by an A and two B post holders in my school but on the other hand we still have a full timetable of 22 hours plus S&S if not opted out so it's hard to say how much more you are doing given you have 4 hours off that a post holder in our school wouldn't have.....still seems a lot and I'd be resisting any efforts to add more jobs to your post duties given the extra burdens foisted on us by HRA.

Off topic I know but why is there such a discrepancy in the 18 hrs v 22 hrs for A post holders depending on whether you're VEC or Secondary? Surely we're all on the same pay scale....why are the hours different? Not being critical, just always wondered why?

I don't understand how people when they get a post expect to collect the extra allowance for work they do and also expect their hours to be reduced. Is this not being compensated on the double? I thought that post duties would be done outside of timetabled hours. Obviously some duties may require the occasional class off e.g year head. The nature of posts is extra pay for extra work not extra pay for different work.

The Red Shoes

Way over wrote: »

Sorry if it's not relevant here but I can't find anywhere more suitable..it used to be one and a half hours for a B post and Four hours for an A post. Now our principal tells us we should be giving eight hours per week to A post duties and be prepared to have meetings after school or lunchtime - over and above Haddington Rd. I am currently a year head to 80 sixth years, policy co-ordinator, responsible for school plan and part examinations secretary, checking exam entries and collecting fees. I actually feel I am overburdened as it is without taking on additional duties.

In my school a reduced timetable for post-holders is not provided. However, you would not be expected to do more than the year head role (80 6th years!) and a more minor role (first aid/ green schools etc). Can you achieve the bolded jobs within your four hours? If so I think that's a comparatively fair workload.

That being said it's definitely an area that needs reform. As a school with growing numbers the majority of posts in our school are done on a voluntary basis. One teacher is year head to 50 students, organises the students' council and is responsible for first aid, all pro bono.

evolving_doors

HRA21 wrote: »

I don't understand how people when they get a post expect to collect the extra allowance for work they do and also expect their hours to be reduced. Is this not being compensated on the double? I thought that post duties would be done outside of timetabled hours. Obviously some duties may require the occasional class off e.g year head. The nature of posts is extra pay for extra work not extra pay for different work.

That's a bit simplistic though. Firstly the reduction in teaching hours doesn;t mean you head off to the staff room light up your pipe and start perusing the Irish times. The reduced teaching hours enables you to do this different work, and from what I have observed the reduction in hours doesn't half compensate for the increased hours spent on the new task. The reduction in hours are measured..i.e 4 periods free, but the time spent on the new posts is not so it's not as easy to see.

If you consider it as a promotion like any other job then you could indeed be spending the same amount of time on a task, but the responsibility on your head is a lot greater if it goes to pot, therefore the stresses associated are different irrespective of the 'hours' put in. For example if you change aspects of Transition Year (as TY coordinator) and it results in a mass exodus from 4th year to other schools, is this the same pressure as getting 30 pupils through 1st year geography?

HRA21

Armelodie wrote: »

That's a bit simplistic though. Firstly the reduction in teaching hours doesn;t mean you head off to the staff room light up your pipe and start perusing the Irish times. The reduced teaching hours enables you to do this different work, and from what I have observed the reduction in hours doesn't half compensate for the increased hours spent on the new task. The reduction in hours are measured..i.e 4 periods free, but the time spent on the new posts is not so it's not as easy to see.

If you consider it as a promotion like any other job then you could indeed be spending the same amount of time on a task, but the responsibility on your head is a lot greater if it goes to pot, therefore the stresses associated are different irrespective of the 'hours' put in. For example if you change aspects of Transition Year (as TY coordinator) and it results in a mass exodus from 4th year to other schools, is this the same pressure as getting 30 pupils through 1st year geography?

Thats a ridiculous argument. You want jam on every side. If you don't want the possibility of stress then don't apply for the post. You have a choice. An A post is approximately 8500 per year. 4 hours per week for 34 weeks at teachers rate would count a good few thousand also. I know a lot of people who would do a lot of hours if they thought they would get a similar amount of money. That would equate to a years earnings for a some people. Also I see a lot of younger teachers doing more than a lot of post holders for no compensation and outside their 22 hours. 15 years teaching and haven't yet seen any post holder resigning their post, mustnt be that stressful.

Please do not repeat post. The second one has been deleted.

ytareh

Divide and conquer....

evolving_doors

HRA21 wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous argument. You want jam on every side. If you don't want the possibility of stress then don't apply for the post. You have a choice. An A post is approximately 8500 per year.

I'm not actually complaining or whinging about the duties of a post holder. I'm just saying that it takes time to do it, it is a promotion with extra responsibilities and moves away from the chalkface into a managerial role. Claiming that being relieved of class periods and and being paid more is being 'paid on the double' is just a simplistic perception. If a teacher still had to teach the 4 hours per week but got paid 10,000 per year (instead of the 8500 you quoted) would you still claim that they were being 'paid on the double'? It's just the optics of the situation looks like they are being paid on the double when in reality, they are just getting a promotion.... more responsibilities ..more time demands.
The comment that being a year head requires the "occasional class off" I find a bit insulting to the work that I have observed year heads doing. In saying this I accept that every school is different (as we have seen on this thread) but from the schools I am aware of, holding a post of responsibility requires a little bit more than the "occasional class off".

HRA21 wrote: »

I know a lot of people who would do a lot of hours if they thought they would get a similar amount of money. That would equate to a years earnings for a some people.

That too is a simplistic argument. Sure there are always people who would do the job for that money... heck look at jobbridge.. teachers are doing jobs for the dole. The amount you are talking about may well "equate to a years earnings for a some people" ....then again it could equate to 3 weeks work for others! We all know only too well the false debate of comparing some peoples jobs to others.

HRA21 wrote: »

Also I see a lot of younger teachers doing more than a lot of post holders for no compensation and outside their 22 hours.

This is a separate issue to the duties of post holders (two wrongs don;t make a right and all that). Although it comes back to the nature of the post which I'll admit seems to vary widely from school to school. This is where a review of the posts is essential with all staff involved in the say, rather than having the same old post divvied out by the powers that be when someone retires.

HRA21 wrote: »

15 years teaching and haven't yet seen any post holder resigning their post, mustnt be that stressful.

By following that logic, I've never seen a principal or deputy principal resign myself either...must be an easy job.. and hey, they get nearly all their teaching times off so effectively they are being paid 'on the double' too. I too know of many people who would do this job for less money ... but funnily enough never apply for the position when it comes up!

siobhd

Hi, not sure if this is the right place but I'm looking for some help. I've an interview for programme coordinator coming up, overseeing TY,LCA and LCVP. I'm wondering what sort of questions I should be preparing given that it's not a standard interview? Any suggestions will be of great help! Thanks