Railway funding (Split from Safety on Irish Rail)

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

It was spent on shiny new trains and track instead of structures. They have been disposing of prematurely-retired carriages while viaducts collapse.

This ^^^
Ignoring reports of a bridge falling into the sea is a safety issue.

Squashing people onto a train at peak times? That's sweating assets.

I was on a rer train in Paris one Saturday, and couldn't take my arms down from putting luggage up on the rack for 3 stops, let alone turn back to face mrs C.

In Japan, they have gloved assistants to push the people in to close the door.

Michael D Not Higgins

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

When you compare IE to other similar size operators in the UK the staff numbers are on a par when you consider the amount of services that run plus IE numbers include infrastructure.

Now compare their salaries versus the ticket prices.

Jamie2k9

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Now compare their salaries versus the ticket prices.

And how about compare ticket prices while your at it.

Copyerselveson

Tricky one to compare the salaries of GB rail workers with Irish ones, not least since there are so many freelancers (paid significantly more than staff) working in the GB rail industry. I doubt there are many freelancers in IÉ.

Michael D Not Higgins

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Tricky one to compare the salaries of GB rail workers with Irish ones, not least since there are so many freelancers (paid significantly more than staff) working in the GB rail industry. I doubt there are many freelancers in IÉ.

Just had a look at IÉ's account (4100 staff, average salary €61k) and FirstGroup (120,000 staff, average salary, including pension costs, £23k).

FirstGroup run Scotrail which has roughly 4500 staff. Even if each of them are on double the average First salary, that's still less than Irish Rail.

What do you mean by freelancers, anyway?

somesoldiers

average 61K- wow!

Michael D Not Higgins

somesoldiers wrote: »

average 61K- wow!

This number also takes into account 32M in severance and other exceptional costs, which comes down to 53k when we take it out.

Copyerselveson

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Just had a look at IÉ's account (4100 staff, average salary €61k) and FirstGroup (120,000 staff, average salary, including pension costs, £23k).

FirstGroup run Scotrail which has roughly 4500 staff. Even if each of them are on double the average First salary, that's still less than Irish Rail.

What do you mean by freelancers, anyway?

A freelancer is a person who is not employed directly by a company but is under a temporary or short term contract. The GB rail industry has a lot of contractors. But because the pots of money that pay contractors are different from the pots that pay staffers doing a simple headcount of staff members and averaging their salaries won't tell you the whole picture regarding true staff costs.

First Scotrail just run passenger trains in Scotland. They don't run freight trains or maintain the track, stations and signals. A better comparison would be to extrapolate the staffing costs of IE's train operating division and compare those.

Losty Dublin

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Just had a look at IÉ's account (4100 staff, average salary €61k) and FirstGroup (120,000 staff, average salary, including pension costs, £23k).

FirstGroup run Scotrail which has roughly 4500 staff. Even if each of them are on double the average First salary, that's still less than Irish Rail.

What do you mean by freelancers, anyway?

As a rule, Firstgroup and most UK operators don't need to employ staff to maintain their track, infrastructure and much of their rolling stock, they don't require staff to manage or plan out their train paths and movements on their routes, they don't employ the staff to operate signalling or level crossings and they don't employ that many staff on the ground at stations. Most of these services are provided for them from outside companies and have been since British Rail was dismantled and privatised in the 1990's.

In contrast, Irish Rail have to employ staff to fulfil many of these duties; many of these staff are graduate and professional trades which will bring up the wage bill somewhat, even allowing for the UK's lower cost of living.

When he says freelancers, he means sub contracted staff and services.

Michael D Not Higgins

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As a rule, Firstgroup and most UK operators don't need to employ staff to maintain their track, infrastructure and much of their rolling stock, they don't require staff to manage or plan out their train paths and movements on their routes, they don't employ the staff to operate signalling or level crossings and they don't employ that many staff on the ground at stations. Most of these services are provided for them from outside companies and have been since British Rail was dismantled and privatised in the 1990's.

In contrast, Irish Rail have to employ staff to fulfil many of these duties; many of these staff are graduate and professional trades which will bring up the wage bill somewhat, even allowing for the UK's lower cost of living.

When he says freelancers, he means sub contracted staff and services.

How does having more of these staff affect the average staff costs? FirstGroup pay the government to run the service btw, which then gets allocated to maintain track.

Copyerselveson

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

How does having more of these staff affect the average staff costs? FirstGroup pay the government to run the service btw, which then gets allocated to maintain track.

First Scotrail are a Train Operating Company who hold a franchise to run passenger services in Scotland and overnight sleeper services to London from Scotland. As Losty says they don't employ any infrastructural staff, these staff are provided by Network Rail. The railway industry is fundamentally different in GB in how it is structured. It might be worth comparing NI Railways with IÉ as they are run in a similar way.

Michael D Not Higgins

Copyerselveson wrote: »

First Scotrail are a Train Operating Company who hold a franchise to run passenger services in Scotland and overnight sleeper services to London from Scotland. As Losty says they don't employ any infrastructural staff, these staff are provided by Network Rail. The railway industry is fundamentally different in GB in how it is structured. It might be worth comparing NI Railways with IÉ as they are run in a similar way.

Again, I am comparing the outgoings both companies have on staff, are you seriously suggesting that the infrastructure staff are being paid that much more than the operational staff that the numbers are skewed? IÉ's operational side has 2500 staff out of the 4100.

That would mean the average infrastructure employee is on over 100k.

jasonbourne.cs

Losty Dublin wrote: »

, they don't require staff to manage or plan out their train paths and movements on their routes

at times it would seem like Irishrail don't either

I cant wait for the wet weather to be over so Irishrail no longer have leaf slippage to blame their continually poor service on and to see what they come up with next .....

Losty Dublin

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

How does having more of these staff affect the average staff costs? FirstGroup pay the government to run the service btw, which then gets allocated to maintain track.

Network Rail maintains the track, signalling, infrastructure and most of the UK's stations for the likes of Scotrail to operate. All the likes of Scotrail have to do is to turn up and run the actual train services that they proposed when applying for their respective franchise.

Managing the infrastructure by it's nature involves a lot of professional staff (Engineers, electricians, IT/Signalling/Phone systems, architects etc) and hence a larger wage bill compared to ticket clerks and checkers, cleaners, depot staff, drivers, office personnel etc; typical staff on the operational side which the operator provides.

Michael D Not Higgins

Just looked at Translink. 3800 staff, 120M staff costs, £31k per staff member. That's a good bit less than IÉ now.

Jamie2k9

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Just looked at Translink. 3800 staff, 120M staff costs, £31k per staff member. That's a good bit less than IÉ now.

Find the exact number involved with NI Railways and costs and post that average. Posting a group average is not as accurate as people working on buses are likely on lower wages than train staff which will bring it down overall.

I'm not disputing that to an extent Irish Rail wage costs are high enough and what date was put on that average given for IE?

Hilly Bill

What has the wages got to do with safety????????

Victor

Posts split from Safety on Irish Rail.

Moderator

cbl593h

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Find the exact number involved with NI Railways and costs and post that average. Posting a group average is not as accurate as people working on buses are likely on lower wages than train staff which will bring it down overall.

I'm not disputing that to an extent Irish Rail wage costs are high enough and what date was put on that average given for IE?

I'm a booking office supervisor for a UK train operator- basic pay £26,126, Flat rate for overtime and time and 1/5 for Sunday. Gissa job in IÉ.............. :eek:

Jamie2k9

cbl593h wrote: »

I'm a booking office supervisor for a UK train operator- basic pay £26,126, Flat rate for overtime and time and 1/5 for Sunday. Gissa job in IÉ.............. :eek:

£26,126 = €31,948.12

Now there is little overtime extra pay for IE and Sunday is a normal day for them (open to correction)

IE staff are on numbers very close to that and are now facing 1.9% cut so with UK Sunday and overtime into account UK staff could be on higher amounts than IE staff come March.

mickydoomsux

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

£26,126 = €31,948.12

Now there is little overtime extra pay for IE and Sunday is a normal day for them (open to correction)

IE staff are on numbers very close to that and are now facing 1.9% cut so with UK Sunday and overtime into account UK staff could be on higher amounts than IE staff come March.

Hasn't been a premium rate for Sunday for most grades for more than a decade now so you are correct. Overtime pay is rare and they've started offering people time in lieu instead. Pity that there isn't enough staff on the ground to let you take your time in lieu off

It's a 1.7% cut rather than a 1.9% cut though.