Adding other instruments

jane82

Hello,
I play a bit of guitar around the house and make up my own songs. Ive got to the stage where I want to add a bit of bass or another guitar just as a bit of a hobby Im not planning on global domination just yet.
I was just wondering if somebody could help me out.
Say for example Im writing something in. C major(to keep it simple).
The chords go C G F ( for example).
Do I stay in the C scale for the bass through all notes or do I play C scale then G scale then F scale.
For example A#. Is in F but not in the standard c scale.
This probably sounds like an idiotic beginner question but bear in mind Im an idiotic beginner.
AlSo if on guitar Im going C chord then riff in C then G chord riff in G then F chord riff in F.
Or do I go C chord riff in C F chord riff in C G chord riff in C .
Therese two questions would help me write alot faster instead of hitting each note until I find the note that sounds decent.
Im self thought have an understanding and use of scales and can play. I just find stumbling blocks like these sometimes.

Oink

My suggestion is to start simple and work your way up. On C, play C, on F, play F.

1. Try a very, very basic and simple riff. As an example, listen to what the bass is doing in Fall at your feet (Crowded House), from 0:14 to about 0:30. No fancy stuff there, just doing your job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82JZh3VyE2M

2. Now that you can do that, listen to Don’t dream it’s over, 0:46 to 0:56. Now you’re changing the rhythm a bit, but you’re still playing C and F (and sometimes a little fancy thing here and there, but nevermind that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gKyRmic20

3. Now. Important check: Nevermind the fancy theory. This is about music. Does what you’re playing still sound good? Maybe this is enough for your song. More complicated does not necessarily mean better.

4. Ok then let’s move on. Do you know the theory behind major/minor chords? It’s simple enough, can explain if needed. Otherwise take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_chord
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_chord
So on each chord, you could create a very simple bass melody using I, II, or III. (In general for a beginner it’s best to prefer/emphasize I )
Example:
C: C, E, G
F: F, A, C
G: G, B, D

5. Does it still sound ok? Not too complicated and fancy? Remember the bass’s main job is to support the song, so if you overdo it it might not work.

Let us know how you get on.
EDIT: I hope this doesn't sound patronizing!

jane82

It doesnt sound patronising at all. Thanks for that. Basically your saying start with the notes that make the chord then push from there if it fits.
Thanks very much Ill get on that.

Kettleson

Hello..

I would suggest, if you want to be creative. that you use your ears, and get to play with other musicians who use their ears, and not bother about scales and conformity and other nonsense, and that you explore your instrument to its depths and get the best amplification you can afford and start to live music, and that you play with feel send not give a fcu what others think.

Failing that, learn the dots and join a covers band, or worse still, a wedding band. Good luck.

jane82

Surely you need a template to start from though.
Everybody playing off the top of their heads with nothing to fall back on leads to bunged notes and a battle of who has the louder amp and conversations like " theres so many talented people but they jst cant get a break or their dads arnt rich".
Jazz music doesnt fill gigs and all that.
Im looking for a starting point.
To be honest though if you took any popular song im sure they all fall into one scale or another.
Ive months of trying to do it off the top of my head and although its quite charming to my ears nobody else will give it a second glance.

Nervous Wreck

Kettleson wrote: »

Hello..

I would suggest, if you want to be creative. that you use your ears, and get to play with other musicians who use their ears, and not bother about scales and conformity and other nonsense, and that you explore your instrument to its depths and get the best amplification you can afford and start to live music, and that you play with feel send not give a fcu what others think.

Failing that, learn the dots and join a covers band, or worse still, a wedding band. Good luck.

No offense but this is terrible advice. Especially the last line, imo.

Feeling the music and doing your own thing is great. But, with a good knowledge of the theory of music, you will have so much more scope for creativity. You can always break the rules. Knowing them allows you to abide by them or not, by your own choice. Going into music with as much knowledge of the theory is definitely the best way to go about it. And I say this as a songwriter who has absolutely zero clue about theory. If I had the knowledge, I'd be much better at my craft.

Kettleson

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

No offense but this is terrible advice. Especially the last line, imo.

Feeling the music and doing your own thing is great. But, with a good knowledge of the theory of music, you will have so much more scope for creativity. You can always break the rules. Knowing them allows you to abide by them or not, by your own choice. Going into music with as much knowledge of the theory is definitely the best way to go about it. And I say this as a songwriter who has absolutely zero clue about theory. If I had the knowledge, I'd be much better at my craft.

It's great advice in my opinion, and maybe you might benefit from it? No offence of course.

All depends what sorta stuff you wanna do...

this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blVsgv0OISY

or this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiDSoT5vy-I

Nervous Wreck

Kettleson wrote: »

It's great advice in my opinion, and maybe you might benefit from it? No offence of course.

Benefit from what? Joining a cover band?

Kettleson wrote: »

All depends what sorta stuff you wanna do...

this

or this...

So, having a working knowledge of music theory equates to being in Westlife?

jane82

Music theory wise to my pretty untrained ear the only difference between the two videos above is prettier packaging. Both using the major/minor scales.
I like the second video more but its not a new discovery in musical science.

Sofaspud

If the song is in C major then all the notes in the song should be in the key of C Major. In the example you gave, C G and F are all major chords that appear in the C scale, as the notes of the chord all appear as the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale from the relative starting point.

So use the same notes that are in your root scale, but use the root of whichever chord you're using as the root note in the scale.

jane82

So generally and giving sway for a bit of rule bending, it doesnt matter whether its the c major key or the f#minor blues key everyone sits in that key and uses the chord changes for guidance?

jane82

I dont think you get me.
Dancing in the moonlight by lizzy and my girl by that hit factory in motown both use the pentatonic scale.
I think you are confusing music sounding different to not using the rules. Im sure the video above you posted is in a key. I like most of captain beefhearts stuff man but even his band learned their scales at some point.
Almost every thing is in a key. They wont turn you into enya.

Kettleson

jane82 wrote: »

I dont think you get me.
Dancing in the moonlight by lizzy and my girl by that hit factory in motown both use the pentatonic scale.
I think you are confusing music sounding different to not using the rules. Im sure the video above you posted is in a key. I like most of captain beefhearts stuff man but even his band learned their scales at some point.
Almost every thing is in a key. They wont turn you into enya.

You learn your scales so. Good luck.

Generic Dreadhead

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

No offense but this is terrible advice. Especially the last line, imo.

Agreed, funnily enough you would need to be MUCH better at guitar to play in a gigging wedding band then an original act. Look at acts like Nirvana, Green Day, Bruce Springsteen. All wrote great original songs using straight forward theory (though in Nirvanas case I guess a lot of it was what just "worked") and playing basic enough chords. If you want to play in a wedding band, you will need to know A LOT more about technique, dynamics, tone, theory, gear yadah yadah…..

Generic Dreadhead

jane82 wrote: »

Hello,
I play a bit of guitar around the house and make up my own songs. Ive got to the stage where I want to add a bit of bass or another guitar just as a bit of a hobby Im not planning on global domination just yet.
I was just wondering if somebody could help me out.
Say for example Im writing something in. C major(to keep it simple).
The chords go C G F ( for example).
Do I stay in the C scale for the bass through all notes or do I play C scale then G scale then F scale.
For example A#. Is in F but not in the standard c scale.
This probably sounds like an idiotic beginner question but bear in mind Im an idiotic beginner.
AlSo if on guitar Im going C chord then riff in C then G chord riff in G then F chord riff in F.
Or do I go C chord riff in C F chord riff in C G chord riff in C .
Therese two questions would help me write alot faster instead of hitting each note until I find the note that sounds decent.
Im self thought have an understanding and use of scales and can play. I just find stumbling blocks like these sometimes.

Going back to your original query. Just focusing on bass for the moment. What I used to do in ages past when adding a bass line to stuff i'd wrote on guitar was to just follow the root notes to give it power and work from there, and if you're not using the root notes, use the 5th. So if your chord progression goes E - A - D… Your fifths are B - E - A…. Keep it basic to start, and then define the parts you'd like to get more "busy" a good rule of thumb is to have the bass playing a basic line for either the Verse or Chorus and playing a more intricate line in the other one, it will help shape the song and make sections better defined

Kettleson

Cormac... wrote: »

Agreed, funnily enough you would need to be MUCH better at guitar to play in a gigging wedding band then an original act. Look at acts like Nirvana, Green Day, Bruce Springsteen. All wrote great original songs using straight forward theory (though in Nirvanas case I guess a lot of it was what just "worked") and playing basic enough chords. If you want to play in a wedding band, you will need to know A LOT more about technique, dynamics, tone, theory, gear yadah yadah…..

Oh FFS, did anyone for an instant think I was serious about wedding bands as a legitimate vehicle for experiencing music?

I was trying to make the point that months, years and lives are wasted in the pursuit of learning the technicalities of music, learning scales and sh1t only to become technically competent in your bedroom and at the same time become as interesting and contribute less than a used paper cup.

You better get on with it.

jane82

Kettleson wrote: »

Oh FFS, did anyone for an instant think I was serious about wedding bands as a legitimate vehicle for experiencing music?

I was trying to make the point that months, years and lives are wasted in the pursuit of learning the technicalities of music, learning scales and sh1t only to become technically competent in your bedroom and at the same time become as interesting and contribute less than a used paper cup.

You better get on with it.

They say thats what happened Rory "paper cup" Gallagher.
Suposedly he was a very good guitarist at one stage. Problem was he spent too long in the show bands.

Generic Dreadhead

Kettleson wrote: »

Oh FFS, did anyone for an instant think I was serious about wedding bands as a legitimate vehicle for experiencing music?

I did