alcohol sold to an over 18 in school uniform

12-02-2014 10:42pm #1

On way back to work from lunch i was about fifty meters from the door when a young chap in a locally known school uniform , i could tell by his trousers ...walked past me with a six pack of cans in one hand and a shopping bag in the other. I check on cctv and find that he did in fact make the purchase ,teller did ask for id. . Later on i ask the teller how old was that school kid that you sold x item to. teller had a baffled look on the face "we not allowed to sell alcohol to anyone in uniform ". I had to show teller cctv and recalls age of 19.
Now teller is worried and in fear of the masters rules and policies and turned like a ghost when viewing the cctv.
I said to teller" No law has been broken but your law and my laws are different" hence the teller's master.

Personally i would not sell alcohol to anyone in school uniform but that's me.

Are there any legal issues here are we all good ??

Bepolite · 12-02-2014 10:47pm

WT... is he a young barrister or does he live in the cellar? Who is his master?

So long as the person was over 18 no laws are broken. If the ID requested was a garda age card and the person turns out to be under 18 the shop will have a defence.

Frankly this post coupled with an intimate knowledge of school-boy trousers is giving me the creeps.

12-02-2014 10:53pm

Bepolite wrote: »

WT... is he a young barrister or does he live in the cellar? Who is his master?

Frankly this post coupled with an intimate knowledge of school-boy trousers is giving me the creeps.

Yes those school days . How i hated them days. And we always reply "yes Master" to the boss . Some days its like living inside a cellar

BabysCoffee · 12-02-2014 10:58pm

That's ridiculous. The seller checked ID, the student was over 18. There was no reason to refuse to sell the alcohol (accept for your silly rule).

If someone was wearing a coat and you suspected there was a uniform underneath would you ask to see what was under the coat before selling the alcohol.

Beyond bizarre!

12-02-2014 11:04pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

That's ridiculous. The seller checked ID, the student was over 18. There was no reason to refuse to sell the alcohol (accept for your silly rule).

If someone was wearing a coat and you suspected there was a uniform underneath would you ask to see what was under the coat before selling the alcohol.

Beyond bizarre!

now now. Not my rule i did try and calm the teller down by saying no law was broken. Teller worried of masters rules , not my rules. why are you trying to neddle me. So quick of the mark. Read the post again yeah!

Bepolite · 12-02-2014 11:05pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

That's ridiculous. The seller checked ID, the student was over 18. There was no reason to refuse to sell the alcohol (accept for your silly rule).

If someone was wearing a coat and you suspected there was a uniform underneath would you ask to see what was under the coat before selling the alcohol.

Beyond bizarre!

To be fair it's very likely passed on to people underage so it's not that silly a rule.

BabysCoffee · 12-02-2014 11:06pm

420 wrote: »

now now. Not my rule i did try and calm the teller down by saying no law was broken. Teller worried of masters rules , not my rules. why are you trying to neddle me. So quick of the mark. Read the post again yeah!

I don't understand! Is the teller a dog? Who is his master?

ColeTrain · 12-02-2014 11:10pm

420 wrote: »

now now. Not my rule i did try and calm the teller down by saying no law was broken. Teller worried of masters rules , not my rules. why are you trying to neddle me. So quick of the mark. Read the post again yeah!

You sound deranged

12-02-2014 11:45pm

ColeTrain wrote: »

You sound deranged

and you seem to be out of range.

The same place has this rule 'if you look under 25 they must ask for id' so im sure they would have a field day on this.
One employee was let go because he didnt ask for an id. the guy was clearly over 18 and was. He was sent in from head office to see if their rules was implemented. Seems unlawful to sack someone over it! But they have done before and probably will again. All one has to say is " He looked over 25"

hfallada · 12-02-2014 11:53pm

To ask people who look under 25 is an "incentive" from the alcohol industry to combat underage drinking. lot of Alcohol advertising is clearly targeted at minors like tobacco companies used to do). I dont see what the issue of the youth being in his school uniform. When I went to school in Dublin city, I wore uniform from 7.30 am to 8pm, Monday to Friday. It would be ridiculous if it had to change out of uniform just to buy alcohol.

The employee checked the individuals ID and was certain he was the age to purchase alcohol. He followed all necessary laws. What more can he do? Ask all potential young customers to remove their jackets to check for a school uniform?

Pro Hoc Vice · 12-02-2014 11:54pm

420 wrote: »

and you seem to be out of range.

The same place has this rule 'if you look under 25 they must ask for id' so im sure they would have a field day on this.
One employee was let go because he didnt ask for an id. the guy was clearly over 18 and was. He was sent in from head office to see if their rules was implemented. Seems unlawful to sack someone over it! But they have done before and probably will again. All one has to say is " He looked over 25"

The legislation allows a licensed premises to refuse to sell alcohol to a person over the age of 18 but under 25. Also is is totally legal to card any person. The defence he looked over 25 is not a defence, the only defence to a charge of selling drink to a person under 18 is that a Garda age card was requested and produced.

You are displaying little understanding of the law in this area, the shop should introduce further training, also a shop close to a school implementing a rule not to supply students in uniform is a very wise and in my opinion legal rule. The media would have a field day if anything went wrong, the defence one of them was 19 but in school uniform would go down lovely.

BTW if a member of staff gets it wrong the penalty can be a a court order to close the shop down for a number of days.

Pro Hoc Vice · 12-02-2014 11:57pm

hfallada wrote: »

To ask people who look under 25 is an "incentive" from the alcohol industry to combat underage drinking. lot of Alcohol advertising is clearly targeted at minors like tobacco companies used to do). I dont see what the issue of the youth being in his school uniform. When I went to school in Dublin city, I wore uniform from 7.30 am to 8pm, Monday to Friday. It would be ridiculous if it had to change out of uniform just to buy alcohol.

The employee checked the individuals ID and was certain he was the age to purchase alcohol. He followed all necessary laws. What more can he do? Ask all potential young customers to remove their jackets to check for a school uniform?

If a store employee believed that the student of legal age was buying the drink for consumption by other students under age then of course they must refuse to sell.

I personally think its a bad idea (and the shop can legally refuse to sell) to supply drink to persons in uniform even if over 18.

Get Real · 13-02-2014 12:19am

infosys wrote: »

If a store employee believed that the student of legal age was buying the drink for consumption by other students under age then of course they must refuse to sell.

I personally think its a bad idea (and the shop can legally refuse to sell) to supply drink to persons in uniform even if over 18.

While I admire the sentiment of your post, in reality this would prevent nothing. So if a person is 18, in a school uniform, there's a high possibility of it being shared with under age friends (i agree with your point here)

but if they stopped getting served in a school uniform, because of a shop policy or equivalent, they'd simply just go home and change their clothes/ buy alcohol on the weekends.

They'd still share drink with under age friends whether they purchased alcohol in a uniform or not. It wouldn't stop anything that I can see.

Yester · 13-02-2014 12:25am

BabysCoffee wrote: »

I don't understand! Is the teller a dog? Who is his master?

A dog can't be expected to spot a fake I.D. nor should it be selling alcohol to anyone.

Donaldio · 13-02-2014 12:29am

There is no legal issue here at all as long as the purchaser is of the legal age he or she can wear what they want and by the way the law is the same for you as it is for that man and anyone else in this land.

Ken. · 13-02-2014 12:36am

In my 15 year old daughters school handbook one of the rules is "Students are not allowed to buy alcohol or go to pubs in their school uniform, If caught a note will be put in your journal, second offence- detention, third offence-suspension or expulsion. This rule applies even if students are over 18".

The principal says that they had to put in the rule cause a few students over 18 would be in the pub and the next day they'd get loads of phone calls about it.

Donnielighto · 13-02-2014 12:37am

The op has a strange way with words. Unless the offie staff thought it was bought for minors everything's gravy surely?

Donnielighto · 13-02-2014 12:38am

ken wrote: »

In my 15 year old daughters school handbook one of the rules is "Students are not allowed to buy alcohol or go to pubs in their school uniform, If caught a note will be put in your journal, second offence- detention, third offence-suspension or expulsion. This rule applies even if students are over 18".

The principal says that they had to put in the rule cause a few students over 18 would be in the pub and the next day they'd get loads of phone calls about it.

But thats not an issue for the seller.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 12:46am

Get Real wrote: »

While I admire the sentiment of your post, in reality this would prevent nothing. So if a person is 18, in a school uniform, there's a high possibility of it being shared with under age friends (i agree with your point here)

but if they stopped getting served in a school uniform, because of a shop policy or equivalent, they'd simply just go home and change their clothes/ buy alcohol on the weekends.

They'd still share drink with under age friends whether they purchased alcohol in a uniform or not. It wouldn't stop anything that I can see.

Of course it would stop nothing, but let's just say one of the friends drink was bought for was 16, let's just say something happened due to drink. How do you think the media would play the school child in uniform bought the drink while on lunch break, or 19 year old in suit bought the drink. It about optics simple.

Ken. · 13-02-2014 12:48am

Donnielighto wrote: »

But thats not an issue for the seller.

I think that's what the op meant by master. Master= principal. The principal of my daughters school did ask the 2 local shops not to serve alcohol or cigarettes to students in uniform even if 18. The shop don't have to comply but if he made the shop off limits at break time it would close in a month.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 12:51am

Donnielighto wrote: »

But thats not an issue for the seller.

It very much becomes an issue for the seller, when at the annual licensing renewal the principle or parents group put in an objection to the renewal on the basis that school going children are being sold alcohol while in uniform during school times. The place would more than likely get licence but it would seat of pants stuff, and AGS would watch them like hawks. Local business must work with the local community, it's just asking for trouble to sell a person in school uniform drink.

It must also be remembered the OP said this happened around lunch time, what ever about 8pm after training selling drink to a school goer at lunch is not a very clever idea.

Victor · 13-02-2014 12:58am

infosys wrote: »

school going children are being sold alcohol while in uniform during school times

But they aren't children.

Ken. · 13-02-2014 12:59am

Victor wrote: »

But they aren't children.

Like I said above, It's all about apperance and the sh!t storm the school has to listen to from busy bodies the next day.(At least in the case of my daughters school).

13-02-2014 1:18am

Sorry folks . It my Americanism . Master as in the Boss and Teller as in Cashier. Also my lunchtime was at five pm.

Anyway even though he was legal age i do agree with the shops policy on non sale alco in school uniform , at the same time nothing stopping him changing his clothes.
Unfortunately drink will be gotten for underagers some way or another.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 1:20am

Victor wrote: »

But they aren't children.

I'll rephrase, is it ok to sell alcohol to leaving cert students in school uniform at lunch time during a school day, in the run up to the pre leaving. While there is no law against it it would be unwise of a shop to do so and even more importantly if the school had requested that such sales did not take place.

Fred Swanson · 13-02-2014 2:15am

This post has been deleted.

BabysCoffee · 13-02-2014 7:29am

Two 18 yr olds attempt to buy alcohol. Both are carded. One is refused because they are in uniform. The other is sold alcohol.

Were they treated equally as the law permits? Could the 18yr old who was refused bring a case to the equality tribunal?

Bepolite · 13-02-2014 7:35am

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Two 18 yr olds attempt to buy alcohol. Both are carded. One is refused because they are in uniform. The other is sold alcohol.

Were they treated equally as the law permits? Could the 18yr old who was refused bring a case to the equality tribunal?

No, thankfully common sense prevails. School uniform is not one of the grounds.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 8:04am

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Two 18 yr olds attempt to buy alcohol. Both are carded. One is refused because they are in uniform. The other is sold alcohol.

Were they treated equally as the law permits? Could the 18yr old who was refused bring a case to the equality tribunal?

No, the reason for refusal is not one of the protected grounds.

GarIT · 13-02-2014 8:15am

You checked the CCTV, are you a manager, did you suspect somebody had stolen from you? If the answer isn't yes to both of them you have committed a crime.

GarIT · 13-02-2014 8:20am

420 wrote: »

Unfortunately drink will be gotten for underagers some way or another.

You said he was on his way home. So you are now accusing him of a crime with no evidence. How do you know he gave the drink to people underage, at 18 I was always drinking, never bought alcohol for anyone underage.

doublej · 13-02-2014 8:23am

OP had a closing query"are we good?" .
If the store has a policy regarding the sale of alcohol to people in school uniform and make a record of any refusals in a refusals book that follow from this policy it would assist them in any difficulty at a licence renewal hearing.
The employee has frustrated this policy if the youngster was clearly wearing a school uniform. There is a mention of a type of trousers but not whether the shirt was the plain type ordinarily worn by school goers, I can assume there wasn't a tie,
The employee is being instructed to carry out a legitimate action; refuse to sell alcohol to anyone in a school uniform, regardless of whether they are 18 or have a Garda Age Card.
The sanction that the employer has stipulated for breach of this Company Rule is serious for the employee; it is dismissal.
As such, the Company have a duty to assist the employee by way of training and continuous instruction to ensure that the employee is capable and confident to adhere to this additional requirement.
The company, acting responsibly, are damned if they don't and damned if they do.
It may be the case that they are responding to a request/ demand from school (s) in the locality or it may be a Company wide policy( I think the store was part of a chain), but whatever the reason for the policy, it is up to the Company and their employees to ensure it can be carried out.
The employee was a competent person, trusted by the Company to carry out their legal and additional obligations,
Why did it fail?What prevented the cashier from refusing? Is the policy actually workable?
When someone's job and reputation is on the line the Company better be prepared for challenges to dismissal if there are any grey areas of subjective/ deductive requirements.
Dismissal for serving a minor is a completely different matter than dismissal for failing to refuse to sell to a person entitled to buy but in a uniform, or it would seem, any part of a uniform.
The Company needs to tie down exactly what it is that they wish to achieve and work with their employees and outside agencies which would have an interest in orderly behaviour in the neighborhood.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 8:35am

GarIT wrote: »

You checked the CCTV, are you a manager, did you suspect somebody had stolen from you? If the answer isn't yes to both of them you have committed a crime.

What crime?

GarIT · 13-02-2014 8:38am

infosys wrote: »

What crime?

You can't view CCTV without good reason to, and being someone higher than just general staff. Data protection laws, I can't quote them.

GarIT · 13-02-2014 8:39am

IMO the OP needs to mind his own business.

stoneill · 13-02-2014 8:44am

Buying alcohol in school uniform is a school matter and school policy, not a law as such.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 8:49am

GarIT wrote: »

You can't view CCTV without good reason to, and being someone higher than just general staff. Data protection laws, I can't quote them.

The OP was not aware f the person was of age but was aware the person was in school uniform, would you think that checking if the person was at least asked for ID to make sure they are over the legal age is a good reason.

Also there is no rule that a ordinary member if staff can not look at CCTV if it is part f their functions, in many small shops that could create a serious problem.

mightyreds · 13-02-2014 10:29am

Master tells smeagol to not sell the precious. Smeagol likes master. Teenager tricks-ed smeagol with stupid overcoat.

enda1 · 13-02-2014 10:40am

I don't see how a shop can legally discriminate against serving adults just because of the clothes they are wearing??

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 10:43am

enda1 wrote: »

I don't see how a shop can legally discriminate against serving adults just because of the clothes they are wearing??

In the service of alcohol a person over 18 and under 25 can legally not be served and it is not a breach of the equality legislation.

enda1 · 13-02-2014 10:44am

infosys wrote: »

In the service of alcohol a person over 18 and under 25 can legally not be served and it is not a breach of the equality legislation.

That's bizarre. Even if they have legal proof of age? A garda age card for example?

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 10:45am

enda1 wrote: »

That's bizarre. Even if they have legal proof of age? A garda age card for example?

Yes.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0031/sec0025.html

While refusing to serve drink to people in shorts and t shirts is discrimination it is not illegal same about school uniform no matter what age. Discrimination is only illegal if it is under one of the grounds set out in legislation.

enda1 · 13-02-2014 10:50am

infosys wrote: »

Yes.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0031/sec0025.html

While refusing to serve drink to people in shorts and t shirts is discrimination it is not illegal same about school uniform no matter what age. Discrimination is only illegal if it is under one of the grounds set out in legislation.

All that says is that they can set a legal age above 18 as long as it is clearly displayed etc. It does not say they can discriminate based on appearance though. But then appearance is maybe not a discriminatory ground considered by law?

SpaceTime · 13-02-2014 10:52am

I was in a supermarket a few months ago and a checkout operator refused to sell this guy alcohol. He looked over 35 never mind 18 and had grey patches in his hair.

He asked why she said : we are not allowed to sell alcohol to anyone in uniform, its the law.

The guy was in a uniform for an alarm fitting company and has 1 bottle of wine in his shopping.

He called the manager who had to explain to the check out operator that it was only SCHOOL uniforms!

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 10:53am

enda1 wrote: »

All that says is that they can set a legal age above 18 as long as it is clearly displayed etc. It does not say they can discriminate based on appearance though. But then appearance is maybe not a discriminatory ground considered by law?

As I said discrimination based on what you wear is not a ground but if the pub says we won't serve people in a dress that would be covered under the equality legislation as it would effect more women than men.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 10:54am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I was in a supermarket a few months ago and a checkout operator refused to sell this guy alcohol. He looked over 35 never mind 18 and had grey patches in his hair.

He asked why she said : we are not allowed to sell alcohol to anyone in uniform, its the law.

The guy was in a uniform for an alarm fitting company and has 1 bottle of wine in his shopping.

He called the manager who had to explain to the check out operator that it was only SCHOOL uniforms!

Lol it also covers Garda Uniform would you believe it's illegal for a Garda on duty to buy anything in a shop where drink is sold.

enda1 · 13-02-2014 10:55am

infosys wrote: »

As I said discrimination based on what you wear is not a ground but if the pub says we won't serve people in a dress that would be covered under the equality legislation as it would effect more women than men.

You didn't say that at all. Apparently it has nothing to do with age like you claimed.

Pro Hoc Vice · 13-02-2014 11:10am

enda1 wrote: »

You didn't say that at all. Apparently it has nothing to do with age like you claimed.

1 a person of legal age can be refused 2 a person in a school uniform can be refused. In neither case is it illegal. You made a point how can a person of legal age be refused for wearing a uniform, I pointed out he can on both points or one.

Also I mentioned age in response to your statement.

Bottleopener · 13-02-2014 11:47am

In the off licence I work in we arent allowed to sell to those in uniform. The main justification is the fact they're wearing uniform is reasonable grounds to assume they'll be distributing to underage friends etc. and if that happened apparently the store would be liable.

GarIT · 13-02-2014 12:06pm

Bottleopener wrote: »

apparently the store would be liable.

The store can only be liable if it can be proven that the store had a reason to believe that the person was supplying drink to minors. It would be up to a judge to decide whether or not a uniform is a reason to belive somebody will supply alcohol to minors. IMO it wouldn't, I know lots of people that have drank in uniform and not supplied drink to minors. From the shops point of view though it may be best to stay on the safe side.

alcohol sold to an over 18 in school uniform

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