Proposed Navan Bus Station

munchkin_utd

One of the largest shambles in Irelands public transport is the situation in Navan where busses are spending a good 15minutes+ selling tickets and processing internet tickets whilst parked on the side of the road blocking any other bus from using the couple of spaces along the kerb.
If it was the odd bus you might let it go, but theres busses scheduled every 15minutes or more often at peak to Dublin on top of other busses which are fairly frequent.

Its obvious that such a situation can be avoided by having a proper bus station where tickets can be issued, busses have plenty of space to park and passengers can wait for their bus sheltered from the elements.

anyhow, somehow the politicans have cottoned on to the problem and are pushing for a bus station to be built.

8.1 Notice of Motion – Cllr. Shane Cassells
Given the favourable expression of interest from the NTA towards the construction of a bus terminal in Navan that Navan Town Council hereby resolves to identify a town centre site this year and propose a facility in design / size similar to the bus terminal constructed in Tralee in order to seek funds from the NTA for the construction of same.

http://www.meath.ie/CountyCouncil/Meetings/TownCouncilMeetings/NavanTownCouncilMeetings/NavanTownCouncilMeetings2013/File,53266,en.doc

And from the annual budget of the county council theres now seemingly money allocated:

- Bus Facilities (Navan) - Design of bus facilities in Navan, to include bus hub, traffic management and bus priority improvements. €200,000

http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Meath-County-Council.pdf

Has anyone other info on the proposed project that theres very limited information about online?

cgcsb

I don't suppose the site will be co-located with the proposed Navan Central station?? That might be a big ask.

munchkin_utd

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't suppose the site will be co-located with the proposed Navan Central station?? That might be a big ask.

I did see it mentioned in the county plan that this is the plan.

munchkin_utd

ok, heres the action item from the county plan

INF POL 24 : To promote and secure, in conjunction with Bus Eireann, the development of
a Central Bus Station within the lifetime of this Development Plan at the optimum location of
the Central Bus & Rail Station in the Carriage Road Area;

http://www.meath.ie/CountyCouncil/Publications/PlanningPublications/NavanElectoralAreaPlanningPublications/NavanDevelopmentPlan2009-2015/File,40288,en.PDF
(page 177)

to be honest if they do it this way it'd be build one get one free, as should the railway ever get approved/ funded/ built then there'd be no need to build a rail station as there'd already be a CIE/ NTA ran station in place at the location .

I still cant understand why theres no express bus shuttle from Navan to the end of the "Navan line" to meet the train that eventually will be going all the way to Navan, which in the medium term would establish commuting patterns from Navan to the catchment area of the Railway that would ensure a viable rail line when it eventually runs to Navan.
But maybe they are waiting for the bus/ rail station to ensure efficient operation before bringing in such an innovation!

Csalem

There is almost the basis of a bus station at the current railway station. Road has been marked out and bays created as seen on Google Earth below. Just need to make a building to sell tickets from:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Navan,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.649051,-6.68466&spn=0.000968,0.002642&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.224734,86.572266&oq=navan&t=h&hnear=Navan,+County+Meath,+Ireland&z=19

LXFlyer

That link doesn't appear to be working.

This should work:
https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.649026,-6.685041&spn=0.000978,0.003098&t=h&z=19

tom23

Csalem wrote: »

There is almost the basis of a bus station at the current railway station. Road has been marked out and bays created as seen on Google Earth below. Just need to make a building to sell tickets from:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Navan,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.649051,-6.68466&spn=0.000968,0.002642&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.224734,86.572266&oq=navan&t=h&hnear=Navan,+County+Meath,+Ireland&z=19

My only concern with the station been potentially there that it might end up been bottleneck.

The fair green with a multi story car park development would be ideal. If not there is a car park on the Kells Road, across from the shopping Centre would also be a nice location.

Geog1234

Some points/observations:

* A bus station in Navan is long overdue and much needed. The town has four main bus stops depending on where one is going - Market Square & Mercy Convent being the principal ones, followed by the Abbeylands South (Fire Station) stop for the 109A (Dublin Airport route) and the shopping centre (adjacent to Easons) for the three town service routes plus three Thursday-only country routes.

* As public funds are being used they need to be used prudently. Lessons need to be learnt from the economic crash - scarce public monies are for the public benefit and assets which already exist in state ownership need to be used to their fullest. Putting hundreds of thousands of € into private hands to buy/rent land/premises is a questionable use of extremely scarce funds when Navan already has a station in state ownership which, with only a very modest outlay, can be a fine bus station.

* The railway station building is in ok condition - a few rooms seem to be used as offices by Irish Rail. The yard surface is quite good too. Investing in this existing state-owned rail station to have a perfectly fit for purpose bus facility certainly makes a lot of sense in economic terms. A waiting area, toilets and ticket vending machines could easily be accommodated in the existing building. CIÉ Group Property could lease a retail space in the building i.e. for a shop (which could also sell tickets).

* No reason why the rail station couldn't be used as a bus station except possible bureaucracy i.e. because it is owned by a CIÉ company maybe private operators wouldn't be allowed to use it hence negating the whole user experience. This could be a stumbling block from the National Transport Authority's (NTA) perspective.

* The rail station may be a bit of a bottleneck at times but any location in the town is going to have some traffic issues at times (that can be said of most towns around the country).

* The rail station in Navan used for school buses and in the past when the Drogheda - Navan bus route was just that (only ran to Trim on Fridays) it used to start and finish at the station, picking up and dropping off passengers there too.

* As for ticketing Bus Éireann has agents in some places elsewhere who are equipped with ticket machines and can sell bus tickets. Despite the obvious benefits of this in minimising dwell time for buses it hasn't been tried in Navan. One wonders have any retailers approached Bus Éireann or vice versa. Clearly there are benefits from all sides as a passenger going into a shop to buy a bus ticket may also purchase something in the shop.

* It's unclear if the €200,000 allocated is for a Consultants' Report or for actual physical works.

* According to a Meath Chronicle article some months ago there was a walk-about the town - NTA and council officials apparently last year to look at six sites identified.

Banjoxed

Hang on, if there is surplus capacity on the Enterprises and indeed Drogheda - Connolly trains, wouldn't it be straight forward to put a platform at the junction with the Navan line at Drogheda and run a train from Navan Railway Station to Drogheda meeting the Enterprises and run a selection of Drogheda trains through to Navan?

Colm R

The train station might be a good place to put a bus station, which Navan does need. However, a bus station would be a benefit to the wider county also, in particular Kells and Cavan. The idea being to get a bus into Navan, and out again as quickly as possible.

- Could they build some sort of bus only entrance off Acadamey steet under the bridge into the yard, I don't know if you could squeeze it in here:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.649789,-6.68059&spn=0.000603,0.001742&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.649733,-6.68051&panoid=rjqdYdIcM6TXhynLv6lWvA&cbp=12,250.41,,0,-1.39

but if you could, it would get the buses into the station and back out without having to navigate through what can be heavy traffic up around the Fair Green.


What about Bus Only Exit off the M3 where the Trim road crosses it?

You could even put a small depot here, where a shuttle from the bus station meets the express buses coming down the M3.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.617895,-6.6929&spn=0.002415,0.006968&t=h&z=18

You could even run shuttles from Trim to meet the express bus.


I've spoken about this before, and I've always that the entire former N3 (now the R147) should be served only by shuttle buses that travel to dedicated points closer to the Motorway to connect with coaches expressing down the motorway.

But I digress - yes, Navan needs a bus station - Navan could potentially be a viable hub for people traveling around to/from the North East, without having to go Dublin.

TheBandicoot

Banjoxed wrote: »

Hang on, if there is surplus capacity on the Enterprises and indeed Drogheda - Connolly trains, wouldn't it be straight forward to put a platform at the junction with the Navan line at Drogheda and run a train from Navan Railway Station to Drogheda meeting the Enterprises and run a selection of Drogheda trains through to Navan?

The line is not currently fit for passenger use(train has to stop at every level crossing and the train crew jumps out and opens it), so the journey times would be very noncompetitive.

Banjoxed

TheBandicoot wrote: »

The line is not currently fit for passenger use(train has to stop at every level crossing and the train crew jumps out and opens it), so the journey times would be very noncompetitive.

Easily fixed with minor investment. This mentality of everything possible for road investment and nothing is possible for rail needs to be broken.

TheBandicoot

Banjoxed wrote: »

Easily fixed with minor investment. This mentality of everything possible for road investment and nothing is possible for rail needs to be broken.

I agree, but I would want to see a full Cost Benefit Analysis put into it. It seems like a very indirect route, and feeds into the already very congested Northern Line, so I really think it will be hard to make it competitive.

Victor

Colm R wrote: »

Could they build some sort of bus only entrance off Acadamey steet under the bridge into the yard, I don't know if you could squeeze it in here:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.649789,-6.68059&spn=0.000603,0.001742&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.649733,-6.68051&panoid=rjqdYdIcM6TXhynLv6lWvA&cbp=12,250.41,,0,-1.39

but if you could, it would get the buses into the station and back out without having to navigate through what can be heavy traffic up around the Fair Green.

Possible, but it seems a bit steep. Easier as an exit.

What about Bus Only Exit off the M3 where the Trim road crosses it?

You could even put a small depot here, where a shuttle from the bus station meets the express buses coming down the M3.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.617895,-6.6929&spn=0.002415,0.006968&t=h&z=18

Perhaps a bit too close to the other junction, which probably makes it unnecessary anyway.

Banjoxed

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I agree, but I would want to see a full Cost Benefit Analysis put into it. It seems like a very indirect route, and feeds into the already very congested Northern Line, so I really think it will be hard to make it competitive.

Curious then how no one here seems to notice the vast sums of money being spent on shadow tolls on the M3: what CBA was ever publicised widely on this?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-paying-111000-a-week-to-toll-road-operators-26741877.html

CrabRevolution

Colm R wrote: »

The train station might be a good place to put a bus station, which Navan does need. However, a bus station would be a benefit to the wider county also, in particular Kells and Cavan. The idea being to get a bus into Navan, and out again as quickly as possible.

- Could they build some sort of bus only entrance off Acadamey steet under the bridge into the yard, I don't know if you could squeeze it in here:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.649789,-6.68059&spn=0.000603,0.001742&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.649733,-6.68051&panoid=rjqdYdIcM6TXhynLv6lWvA&cbp=12,250.41,,0,-1.39

but if you could, it would get the buses into the station and back out without having to navigate through what can be heavy traffic up around the Fair Green.


What about Bus Only Exit off the M3 where the Trim road crosses it?

You could even put a small depot here, where a shuttle from the bus station meets the express buses coming down the M3.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.617895,-6.6929&spn=0.002415,0.006968&t=h&z=18

You could even run shuttles from Trim to meet the express bus.


I've spoken about this before, and I've always that the entire former N3 (now the R147) should be served only by shuttle buses that travel to dedicated points closer to the Motorway to connect with coaches expressing down the motorway.

But I digress - yes, Navan needs a bus station - Navan could potentially be a viable hub for people traveling around to/from the North East, without having to go Dublin.

You'd just be better off getting a bus from Trim to Dublin than spend 20-25 minutes going to Navan and then swapping buses to get to Dublin.

Hungerford

TheBandicoot wrote: »

The line is not currently fit for passenger use(train has to stop at every level crossing and the train crew jumps out and opens it), so the journey times would be very noncompetitive.

The line could be upgraded easily and cheaply if the political will was there.

This old Railusers webpage from 2007 sets out what needs to be done and how:
http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/navan/navan_drogheda.php

A reopening would cut the public transport journey time between Navan and Drogheda from an hour to just over 20 minutes. It would also absolutely slash journey times between Navan, Northern Ireland and North Dublin. The main reason why the Clonsilla to Navan line was preferred to it was politics - it runs through more constituencies.

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

A reopening would cut the public transport journey time between Navan and Drogheda from an hour to just over 20 minutes. It would also absolutely slash journey times between Navan, Northern Ireland and North Dublin.

Agreed. How many of those journeys are there though?

The main reason why the Clonsilla to Navan line was preferred to it was politics - it runs through more constituencies.

Not quite. Most trips from Navan to other places in quantities that would work for rail are to Blanchardstown and Dublin. A train trip Navan-Drogheda-Dublin is 55% longer (48.75 miles -v- 31.5 miles approximately) than a Navan-Blanchardstown-Dublin one and would lose on journey time compared to road and bus. It would use a congested section of track, especially from Howth Junction to Grand Canal Dock. A new line would also serve Dunshaughlin, Rathoath and to a lesser degree Ashbourne and beet up the Blanchardstown service.

Hungerford

Victor wrote: »

Agreed. How many of those journeys are there though?

I don't know and I don't think anyone really does. The problem is that everyone seems to assess public transport flows to/from Dublin without considering other destinations.

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

I don't know and I don't think anyone really does. The problem is that everyone seems to assess public transport flows to/from Dublin without considering other destinations.

For Navan, page 52 here: www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/A,Profile,of,the,Working,Population,of,Large,Towns.pdf Data is 2006.

For Drogheda page 22, Dublin City (continuous urban area) page 26, Swords (not rail served) page 58. The rest of the towns in North County Dublin are predominantly residential, with local services, with few people travelling to them for work.

MGWR

Hungerford wrote: »

I don't know and I don't think anyone really does. The problem is that everyone seems to assess public transport flows to/from Dublin without considering other destinations

That's how most main roads are designed as well. How much demand is there for a motorway going directly from Navan to Cork, for an almost-rhetorical query?

Hungerford wrote: »

The main reason why the Clonsilla to Navan line was preferred to it was politics - it runs through more constituencies

Nothing to do with being a more direct line with less congestion, perhaps, and with quick access to the Docklands station if demand arises? How many people drive the M1 almost into Drogheda and then turn onto the N51 (or via Donore and the Boyne Road via Newgrange) towards Navan versus using the M3? That's aside from a train operating via the Northern Line not being able to stop in Drogheda MacBride proper without a backup move. It also makes more sense to serve more communities that are not currently served by rail versus fewer. FTR, I don't like the notion of railway lines "competing" for attention from politicians and would rather the private sector be able to reopen both; in both cases, the public has been ill-served.

Colm R

Victor wrote: »

Possible, but it seems a bit steep. Easier as an exit.
Perhaps a bit too close to the other junction, which probably makes it unnecessary anyway.

Agreed, it is a bit close. But the only reason I would suggest it is it would give buses a quicker exit to the road that the CIE site is on, which is most likely where it would go.


They are two aspects to it:
- you need a central enough site to gain customers. The CIE site is close enough, but not as central as the main bus stop currently in use on the site.

- it needs to be as accessible to buses as possible, so that buses can get into and out of the town as quickly as possible. I think CIE site fails on this count, which is why I suggested an entrance next to the bridge, and motorway exit on the Trim road. I don't know how possible the above is however.


The other alternative is to scrap the idea of a central bus station and put one next to the motorway, with a big car park, and feeder buses from the town.

The question is, would a bus picking up about the town, driving to a bus station at the motorway, processing tickets and getting them aboard an express coach be quicker than getting the coach into the town bus station and back out again -> I don't know the answer to this.

TheBandicoot

MGWR wrote: »

Nothing to do with being a more direct line with less congestion, perhaps, and...

Not often I agree with this libertarian poster(and definitely disagree with the rest of his post), but yeah, the correct way to serve Navan is via the Clonsilla route- meandering through Duleek to Drogheda and then joining the busy Northern line and DART disaster land is just a non-runner.

dowlingm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Hang on, if there is surplus capacity on the Enterprises and indeed Drogheda - Connolly trains, wouldn't it be straight forward to put a platform at the junction with the Navan line at Drogheda and run a train from Navan Railway Station to Drogheda meeting the Enterprises and run a selection of Drogheda trains through to Navan?

Oft discussed but sadly not straightforward because the Navan line branches off south of the current loading platforms. A gawk at Eiretrains and Google Maps should explain. I can think of ways it could be done but it would be pricey and since Tara traffic is likely to continue a while it's not like the branch could be taken offline and works done at leisure. If the M3-Clonsilla route had been completed I think there's a good chance the branch would have been put to sleep with Tara traffic re routed.