Budget for build

hbab2009

Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to posting on the boards.ie forum but I do view it regularly.

I am about to begin the process of building my own 2900 sqft house. My tender document is due to go out to building contractors next week. I have a budget of 220k for the build.

My questions are below..................

1) If the build price goes over budget, is it acceptable to turn to the preferred builder and ask them how much of the house can be built for 160k?

2) Or should i be asking how much it would cost to get the house to a weather proofed state?

My plan to be honest, if the build were to go over budget I would want to get the house to just a weatherproofed condition and then direct labour out the remainder of the tasks.

I know the above questions will probably get the "how long is a piece of string" answers, but to be fair from reading this forum there are a fairly knowledgeable group of people on it.

Please note I will not be dealing with banks for the build.

All the best,

hbab2009

kkelliher

hbab2009 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to posting on the boards.ie forum but I do view it regularly.

I am about to begin the process of building my own 2900 sqft house. My tender document is due to go out to building contractors next week. I have a budget of 220k for the build.

My questions are below..................

1) If the build price goes over budget, is it acceptable to turn to the preferred builder and ask them how much of the house can be built for 160k?

2) Or should i be asking how much it would cost to get the house to a weather proofed state?

My plan to be honest, if the build were to go over budget I would want to get the house to just a weatherproofed condition and then direct labour out the remainder of the tasks.

I know the above questions will probably get the "how long is a piece of string" answers, but to be fair from reading this forum there are a fairly knowledgeable group of people on it.

Please note I will not be dealing with banks for the build.

All the best,

hbab2009

It is how long is a piece of string and you will certainly be over 250k but I cannot believe you have tender documents ready and yet no idea of what the cost is likly to be based on those documents. Have you a qs? Assume no so that would be the best place to start.

you also wont have a commencement cert lodged by 1st march so i dont believe direct build is an option due to certification requirements

hbab2009

Thank you for the reply kkelliher. Had a good idea I was going to get the "how long is a piece of string" answer.

jonniebgood1

hbab2009 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to posting on the boards.ie forum but I do view it regularly.

I am about to begin the process of building my own 2900 sqft house. My tender document is due to go out to building contractors next week. I have a budget of 220k for the build.

My questions are below..................

1) If the build price goes over budget, is it acceptable to turn to the preferred builder and ask them how much of the house can be built for 160k?

2) Or should i be asking how much it would cost to get the house to a weather proofed state?

My plan to be honest, if the build were to go over budget I would want to get the house to just a weatherproofed condition and then direct labour out the remainder of the tasks.

I know the above questions will probably get the "how long is a piece of string" answers, but to be fair from reading this forum there are a fairly knowledgeable group of people on it.

Please note I will not be dealing with banks for the build.

All the best,

hbab2009

When your tenders come back you should talk with the builders and get some input from them on possible cost savings or ways that you can keep inside your budget. This will allow you to also see if you can get on with them. You should be able to get a solution that gets your dwelling habitable if you can agree a plan with the builder. A qs may be an option but you will find differing views on this as to whether or not the cost is worth it.

hbab2009

Thank you, I guess I won't know where I really stand until tenders come back. My engineer is sending out 6 tender packs, I will have a good base to go by when all are back.

Gumbo

hbab2009 wrote: »

Thank you, I guess I won't know where I really stand until tenders come back. My engineer is sending out 6 tender packs, I will have a good base to go by when all are back.

2900 sq. ft build, allow for €290k finished. (Give or take).

Would be very interested in hearing back from you when the tenders come back in to see what kind of figures are being quoted.

Also, it's location dependant, where are you based?

New building control regs may not allow for partially built homes, as you need sign off and completion certificates IIRC

kkelliher

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

When your tenders come back you should talk with the builders and get some input from them on possible cost savings or ways that you can keep inside your budget. This will allow you to also see if you can get on with them. You should be able to get a solution that gets your dwelling habitable if you can agree a plan with the builder. A qs may be an option but you will find differing views on this as to whether or not the cost is worth it.

I am a QS so of course very biased

Generally those who think the QS is a must are those who have got into trouble and had a QS get them out. Those who have had a QS throughout a project probably wonder, what did they do, as they had no issues and I always wonder why........

Also keep in mind that returned tenders will only be as usefull as the tender documents that went out. I recently had a client send me their tender returns and the architect was proposing to go with the cheapest contractor. When I reviewed the detail of all 4 tenders the most expensive bottom line contractor was actually the cheapest contractor when you carried out a like with like comparison and when all the exclusions of works items were taken into account.

galwaytt

I don't think that budget is enough, for the size. Sure you can cut corners - but will you want to ??

hbab2009

Thank you all for the feedback. I'll post the prices I receive + the an outline of the tender document once I receive them. I am based in Munster.

BryanF

hbab2009 wrote: »

Thank you all for the feedback. I'll post the prices I receive + the an outline of the tender document once I receive them. I am based in Munster.

Don't bother

Post the price when your finished the job.

homewardbound11

I would say QS and fixed price tender . That way the builder has no material/build short cuts. The other route of receiving tenders is a nightmare as you will find them vague and you would need to have reasonable accurate estimates of all expenditures so you know where you stAnd.engineers drawings supplied also with the tender. You can save money by spending it on a qs.

Chisler2

homewardbound11 wrote: »

I would say QS and fixed price tender . That way the builder has no material/build short cuts. The other route of receiving tenders is a nightmare as you will find them vague and you would need to have reasonable accurate estimates of all expenditures so you know where you stAnd.engineers drawings supplied also with the tender. You can save money by spending it on a qs.

Can someone explain to me what is a "fixed-price tender"? Does the contractor ask "how much have you got to spend" and you tell them and they do a job to that limit? Is this not an opening to "inflate" the price of the contract to the maximum available?

Secondly - is it feasible or necessary, in the real world and with a modest budget, to engage a string of professionals whose training is for sophisticated complex buildings and developments? It would be great to attach Engineering Surveyor's drawings to Scope of Works I am giving to prospective building contractors (prepared by myself........what I want I can specify). However the "plans" produced by my E.S. (at considerable expense!) are neither technical nor to-scale. They are submission for planning permission. The E.S. tells me technical and/or scale drawings are "not necessary" but if I require them there is an additional fee. How many professional experts are needed for a very small domestic renovation and what are the cumulative fees likely to be? At the moment I am depressed by the prospect that in Ireland, that might be "in the tens of thousands"!

I should state that I am not attempting to "break rules" or "cut corners"........just do the best possible job of weatherproofing and warming a dwelling as a base for getting on with life.

sawdoubters

the person that did your plans should have given you a cost,if you don't make changes,you will not go over budget,you need a clause that money will be deducted if its not finished in 6 months or it will take a year to build
I hope your building a passive house
you better have seen the builders other work,go for the middle quote
don't forget theres new building rules


you will need a shipping container to keep building materials safe and dry and close to site,and water and electricity,easy access to site,how are you finding your builders,make sure they have built houses before,bab food eating in house,it brings in rats-mice when builder leaves

homewardbound11

Chisler2 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what is a "fixed-price tender"? Does the contractor ask "how much have you got to spend" and you tell them and they do a job to that limit? Is this not an opening to "inflate" the price of the contract to the maximum available?

Secondly - is it feasible or necessary, in the real world and with a modest budget, to engage a string of professionals whose training is for sophisticated complex buildings and developments? It would be great to attach Engineering Surveyor's drawings to Scope of Works I am giving to prospective building contractors (prepared by myself........what I want I can specify). However the "plans" produced by my E.S. (at considerable expense!) are neither technical nor to-scale. They are submission for planning permission. The E.S. tells me technical and/or scale drawings are "not necessary" but if I require them there is an additional fee. How many professional experts are needed for a very small domestic renovation and what are the cumulative fees likely to be? At the moment I am depressed by the prospect that in Ireland, that might be "in the tens of thousands"!

I should state that I am not attempting to "break rules" or "cut corners"........just do the best possible job of weatherproofing and warming a dwelling as a base for getting on with life.

Fixed price is what it is . If there are any overruns on the fixed price then the bill is footed by the contractor. The contractor usually builds a possible overrun on the tender price though.

220k on a 2900 sqft build is very hard to complete. The structure may be there but it will not be a finished build. That would be even with some hard graft by your self. The others are allowing 100euro per sqft . I have heard/ seen some builds direct labour at 65/70 but they were most definitely not building to current regs. I would at least budget for 100 euro for a completed house with modest finishing sand no exterior work/ landscaping.
Yes you can build without drawings/ QS. But as I found out as I did direct labour.that it really is hard and I didn't save money at all. My 2995 finished is closer to 350k rather than the 300k I hoped.

loveta

hbab2009 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to posting on the boards.ie forum but I do view it regularly.

I am about to begin the process of building my own 2900 sqft house. My tender document is due to go out to building contractors next week. I have a budget of 220k for the build.

My questions are below..................

1) If the build price goes over budget, is it acceptable to turn to the preferred builder and ask them how much of the house can be built for 160k?

2) Or should i be asking how much it would cost to get the house to a weather proofed state?

My plan to be honest, if the build were to go over budget I would want to get the house to just a weatherproofed condition and then direct labour out the remainder of the tasks.

I know the above questions will probably get the "how long is a piece of string" answers, but to be fair from reading this forum there are a fairly knowledgeable group of people on it.

Please note I will not be dealing with banks for the build.

All the best,

hbab2009

Where in are you building your house rural/urban??
Built a 2100sq feet hip roofed bungalow in 2010/11 fully finished inside and lawns walls "back street" attic ready "if needed" to be studded/slabbed ect for
128k had my own site and done direct labour maybe i am wrong but that budget seems more than plenty.

kkelliher

homewardbound11 wrote: »

Fixed price is what it is . If there are any overruns on the fixed price then the bill is footed by the contractor. The contractor usually builds a possible overrun on the tender price though.


Yes you can build without drawings/ qs

There is a big difference between fixed price and lump sum. Fixed price means the individual cost of items is fixed for the project. Lump sum means the cost and all items on the drawings are done for an agreed figure and outside of variations it should not move

you can built without drawings in the same way you can pull teeth without a dentist. It will be a lot more painful and you will have no idea what damage you have causer until its too late

Chisler2

Thanks KK SawD, Homeward. From your responses, I need to change Engineering Surveyor and, in addition, engage a Quantity Surveyor. So far the E.S. has thrown out vague figures "willy-nilly' - e.g. for septic-tank, for different roof and insulating options, but no 'ball-park' total for the work.

This particular E.S. submitted the planning application (for installation of a septic tank) on my behalf but suggested at the time that though my proposed extension did not require planning permission (under 40 sq m) it should be included in the application as it includes a bathroom and w.c. Is it feasible to change to another E.S. at this late stage for preparation of drawings and specifications for the builders...........or should I be considering both a new E.S. AND a Quantity Surveyor?

The advice on how to manage the site when builders (finally) come to build is much appreciated. I would never have thought of things like implications of discarded sandwiches etc.

BryanF

Chisler2 wrote: »

The E.S. tells me technical and/or scale drawings are "not necessary" but if I require them there is an additional fee.

:eek:
are you sure he said 'to scale' drawings were not necessary? are you sure he didn't mean that only written dimensions must be used, and that the drawing should not be scaled from?

kkelliher wrote: »

There is a big difference between fixed price and lump sum. Fixed price means the individual cost of items is fixed for the project. Lump sum means the cost and all items on the drawings are done for an agreed figure and outside of variations it should not move

you can built without drawings in the same way you can pull teeth without a dentist. It will be a lot more painful and you will have no idea what damage you have causer until its too late

agreed

Chisler2 wrote: »

I need to change Engineering Surveyor and, in addition, engage a Quantity Surveyor. So far the E.S. has thrown out vague figures "willy-nilly' - e.g. for septic-tank, for different roof and insulating options, but no 'ball-park' total for the work.

thats fine if the drawings are adequate for a builder to price accurately from.

should I be considering both a new E.S. AND a Quantity Surveyor?

definitely a new contract administrator which in this case could be a QS, eng or arch

I would never have thought of things like implications of discarded sandwiches etc.

what are you on about?

may i ask what is an engineer surveyor? or put another way what are the letters after his/her name?

Chisler2

Bryan - "BSc, Const. Build. Surv. MIEI". The drawings he prepared state "Planning Drawing only. Do not scale from this drawing". I enquired if these drawings were sufficient basis for a builder to understand what was required in terms of groundwork and articulation of the old (stone) cottage with the extension the response was that the builder probably had enough to work with in the plans. I suggested preparing a detailed Specification. He considered this unnecessary, suggested a "Scope of Works". He offered me what seemed to me a broad, general list of works which, however, did not include items such as installing company head for electricity, or supplying and fitting a water-tank. So I am now preparing such a list myself, itemised down to the last light-switch.

Gumbo

Chisler2 wrote: »

Bryan - "BSc, Const. Build. Surv. MIEI". The drawings he prepared state "Planning Drawing only. Do not scale from this drawing". I enquired if these drawings were sufficient basis for a builder to understand what was required in terms of groundwork and articulation of the old (stone) cottage with the extension the response was that the builder probably had enough to work with in the plans. I suggested preparing a detailed Specification. He considered this unnecessary, suggested a "Scope of Works". He offered me what seemed to me a broad, general list of works which, however, did not include items such as installing company head for electricity, or supplying and fitting a water-tank. So I am now preparing such a list myself, itemised down to the last light-switch.

Basically, general run of the mill planning drawings is what they are.

kkelliher

It is no wonder the quality of building is generally so poor when there is no control on the process as outlined in this thread. It should not be possible for any building irrespective of size to commence without a propper design professional, detailed drawings, specification and a client that understands both their responsibilities and the process. Some of the questions here are baffling and i cannot understand why anyone in the industry would not sit down with their client and fully detail the process and terminology.

I am starting to fully understand why i loose jobs on price as clearly the process i go through and those of others differ greatly in terms of client education

Chisler2

kkelliher wrote: »

It is no wonder the quality of building is generally so poor when there is no control on the process as outlined in this thread. It should not be possible for any building irrespective of size to commence without a propper design professional, detailed drawings, specification and a client that understands both their responsibilities and the process. Some of the questions here are baffling and i cannot understand why anyone in the industry would not sit down with their client and fully detail the process and terminology.

I am starting to fully understand why i loose jobs on price as clearly the process i go through and those of others differ greatly in terms of client education

Rather harsh judgement of 'the client'. The Solicitor retained to do the conveyancing engaged this reputable (also recommended by the Estate Agent and spoken of highly by locals) firm for confirmation of the structural state of the property and the boundaries of the land. As they had inspected for the conveyancing it seemed logical to continue to work with these people, whose shingle outside the door reads:- "Civil engineering and building design services". From the CoCo records they have been successfully submitting planning applications for decades.

The client does not usually have - nor should they be expected to have - sophisticated, arcane knowledge of construction professionals.

Are you saying the status of my house and lands are not correctly established? Are you saying the "Engineering Surveyor" is not an Engineering Surveyor and I'm being sold a pig in a poke?

kkelliher

Chisler2 wrote: »

Rather harsh judgement of 'the client'. The Solicitor retained to do the conveyancing engaged this reputable (recommended by the Estate Agent and locals) firm for confirmation of the structural state of the property and the boundaries of the land. As they had inspected for the conveyancing it seemed logical to continue to work with these people, whose shingle outside the door reads:- "Civil engineering and building design services". From the CoCo records they have been successfully submitting planning applications for decades.

The client does not usually have - nor should they be expected to have - sophisticated, arcane knowledge of construction professionals.

Are you saying the status of my house and lands are not correctly established? Are you saying the "Engineering Surveyor" is not an Engineering Surveyor and I'm being sold a pig in a poke?

My issue is not with the client. My issue is that in this example like many others we have a client who has gone through the planning process and who has come out the other end with no idea of the process, no idea of cost, no idea of who does what etc etc. In my view this is wrong as the client is at the heart of any project and they should understand and know everything about their project and this should be detailed at the outset and not in the middle or at the end.

Chisler2

KK I enthusiastically endorse that! This is one of the most bewildering experiences I've ever had and I have been appalled at the lack of dialogue between myself and the agents, my pro-active contacting and questioning notwithstanding. Back to the drawing-board, it seems!

By the way I am not entirely naive about these issues. On two occasions I have worked - in the UK where, admittedly, the system is very different - for architects. The situation in Ireland seems infinitely more complex. I appreciate your helpful comments. What, in your view, is necessary and possible to remedy this muddle and lead to involved, educated clients?