Suicide - How dare people ignore that pain!

Lyaiera

There was a thread here about suicide. It was deleted, or moved from these forums. You can't access it now.

People were giving links to the Samaritans. People were giving links to hotlines who could talk to someone who is suicidal. Some distant phone line, these are the people who can help.

I live a good life. I just had chicken and chips because I came home from the pub and was hungry. That's a good life. Not being hungry. Not looking for a place over your head.

For as long as I can remember killing myself was a thought in my head. I remember when I was 9 or 10 lying down on the floor in my room thinking about plunging a knife in my heart. I had used that knife to cut food, to cut string, all the reasons a young child would have a small little penknife and I thought if I stabbed myself in my heart it would be over.

People talk about suicide like it isn't a real thing. If only the people who killed themselves had sought help? I've been getting help for the past ten years but suicide is still a reality of my life.

Look at the gay threads, look at the transgender threads. That's the reality of life. Look at the threads about dole scroungers, look at the threads about people who are worse off than you. Not everyone is as strong. It's no fault of theirs and it's no fault of yours but people just aren't strong enough to deal with the ****ty situations that life throws at them.

Look at Philip Seymour Hoffman, a successful man, a man who had it all and it wasn't enough for him. He still felt pain that drove him to drugs and drove him to death.

I'm thankful that we live in a progressive society. If I was living in another country I would be living on the streets, or already dead. I'm thankful that my parents are rich and that they could move me between schools, and pay for medical treatment. Because otherwise I would be dead. And no-one would care.

There's an old phrase, "There goes me but for the grace of god." And I firmly believe in that. Thinking that I could be that person. I could be the person living on the streets, I could be the person living in the penthouse, I could be the person who is hurting and doesn't feel part of the world, or who feels like the world isn't for them.

It's painful living your life with hurt, and pain, and sorrow. You have no reason to feel sad, you have a good life with Super Valu chicken and wedges. But still you feel it. Still you feel alone, and hurt and isolated and holy mother****er I just want to hold you tight and say hopefully this world can be better. Hopefully me, and you and the people of boards can care for us. Hopefully there's a world where it's all ok. And if that world is one where you kill yourself then I'll mourn your death. I'll feel terrible that you were driven to that. But in the meantime then I hope and I pray to whatever ****ing god there could ever be that I can do something for you. I pray that I never wash my hands of you. I honest to god hope that you will be ok, because I'm not ok. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who are not ok. But **** me I'll try for myself and I'll try for you.

I've done just about enough for me so far. Not everyone can do the same. Please, dear god do enough for the people around you if you can. Care and hope for a better future because for some people it's ****. They can't ask for anything, they don't even know what to ask for. I certainly don't. Honestly loving and caring for the people around you can do so much. And I will lament the people we lost. Let's not rub our hands of those, let's dedicate tomorrow to the people who are on the verge of that situation. The person looking at death as a release and let them know that life is good, we care.

Ruu

Hiya, I didn't delete the thread, it was unapproved from normal view. I just thought it best because of boards guidelines. It looks like the OP was getting some great advice but none of us are professionals. I have talked to the OP over PM and will be up for a few hours more, it wasn't my intention to hide anything. I understand it is real, had close relatives take their own life over the past 2 years.
Appreciate your post and wishing you well.

Lyaiera

I wasn't directing that "how dare people ignore that pain!" part of the title at the After Hours admins. I was directing it at society who thinks that suicide is a terrible tragedy that could be prevented if the person looked for help.

Society is good. Irish culture is good. But not all of it is good. And a little understanding that people are in need of help, and no amount of anti-depressants or HSE waiting lists and therapists is going to solve the problem. EVERYONE! And I mean everyone needs to understand that some people can't cope. Some people just aren't as capable and need help and love and understanding. And they're good people, nothing wrong with them at all. They just need more and there's nothing wrong with wanting that. And there should be nothing wrong with giving that. And by **** do people need to care for those around them if they don't want to be washing their hands and plamássing about another suicide.

MadsL

We need a hug button as well as thanks button. Lyaiera, your post has me welling up here...hug sent your way...

Be strong. Be yourself. Be well.

kneemos

Blaming "the drink"seems to have become quite popular as an explanation for suicide,rather than seeing it as a symptom of the person's real problems.

steddyeddy

kneemos wrote: »

Blaming "the drink"seems to have become quite popular as an explanation for suicide,rather than seeing it as a symptom of the person's real problems.

It's exasperates peoples problems as well as being a symptom of them. It's a major depressant it certainly can't be part of the solution.

Akrasia

On a stormy day the walls will shake and the air is heavy with menace.
The light is dull and your horizon looms close and blurred by rain.

A tempest brings out emotions and tells you that you are alive.
Sometimes there is nothing good about feeling alive if life is swamped with floods and battered with howling winds. Wait until the eye of the storm you think, it's calmer then, these feelings might go away.

In the brief peace of the eye as a hurricane rages all around you, what feelings remain? If any? Relief? Certainly not, the storm is not yet over, and the mess is yet to be cleaned up.

When the deluge ends and the last leaf settles you look around. Which was worse, the damage caused or your fear of what may have happened? Or what will happen the next time?

Some people have stronger houses, live in sheltered places. Some celebrate and are enthralled by gales and will seek them out to brace against them. But if your house is old and the river is about to burst its banks, you need the understanding and help of others. Disasters do happen, and nobody can rebuild all on their own.

Sunnyisland

Akrasia wrote: »

On a stormy day the walls will shake and the air is heavy with menace.
The light is dull and your horizon looms close and blurred by rain.

A tempest brings out emotions and tells you that you are alive.
Sometimes there is nothing good about feeling alive if life is swamped with floods and battered with howling winds. Wait until the eye of the storm you think, it's calmer then, these feelings might go away.

In the brief peace of the eye as a hurricane rages all around you, what feelings remain? If any? Relief? Certainly not, the storm is not yet over, and the mess is yet to be cleaned up.

When the deluge ends and the last leaf settles you look around. Which was worse, the damage caused or your fear of what may have happened? Or what will happen the next time?

Some people have stronger houses, live in sheltered places. Some celebrate and are enthralled by gales and will seek them out to brace against them. But if your house is old and the river is about to burst its banks, you need the understanding and help of others. Disasters do happen, and nobody can rebuild all on their own.

Excellent.

Lyaiera

Lyaiera wrote: »

How dare people ignore that pain!

Lyaiera wrote: »

And by **** do people need to care for those around them if they don't want to be washing their hands and plamássing about another suicide.

There is an anger running through your post that appears to lead you to a judgemental position that I do not think is warranted. What exactly is it you feel the users reading your posts should be doing? What is it they are failing to do that justifies screaming "How dare you" at them?

There have been suicides around me in my life and I for one have no idea how I could have been a better friend to - or more supportive of - such people. And I would take offence to any suggestion I have engaged in anything remotely like "hand washing" or "plámásing" here.

Quite often with suicide it comes from the people you least expect it. Especially with people who are manic depressives. Such people when they are in your company or out publically are imbued with life, joy, energy and well being. The lows and depressions often happen behind closed doors. I have lost count of how many times I have heard people discuss a suicide and say "That was the LAST person I would have expected to go down that route - (s)he always seemed so happy and full of life". Such people are left lamenting "I wish I had known" but the only answer to that is "How the hell COULD you have known? There was literally no symptom, no sign, no indication, nothing".

I doubt there are many people on this forum who "ignore" the pain in their loved ones - friends - and family. When we see it I would say the vast majority of us try to do something about it. The problem is we do not see it - and there is often no way we could have - and we simply can not act on data we do not have short of excercising a complete paranoid world view where literally every one we know is on the point of suicide.

I recognize the problem of suicide in our society and like the majority of people I want to do something about it when and where I can. And one strong thing we can do is raise awareness about suicide and depression. But screaming judgemental "How Dare Yous" at people whos ability to do anything about it does not fit with their desire to is not likely to do more than ruffle feathers, raise hackles, and foster negativity on the issue.

Your post is riddled with your Ire - but I have read it three times and see literally no suggestions on what you propose for society to do better. So it remains entirely unclear A) What it is you are actually accusing people of in your "How Dare You" and What it is you want us to do better that we do not already do.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an anger running through your post that appears to lead you to a judgemental position that I do not think is warranted. What exactly is it you feel the users reading your posts should be doing? What is it they are failing to do that justifies screaming "How dare you" at them?

There have been suicides around me in my life and I for one have no idea how I could have been a better friend to - or more supportive of - such people. And I would take offence to any suggestion I have engaged in anything remotely like "hand washing" or "plámásing" here.

Quite often with suicide it comes from the people you least expect it. Especially with people who are manic depressives. Such people when they are in your company or out publically are imbued with life, joy, energy and well being. The lows and depressions often happen behind closed doors. I have lost count of how many times I have heard people discuss a suicide and say "That was the LAST person I would have expected to go down that route - (s)he always seemed so happy and full of life". Such people are left lamenting "I wish I had known" but the only answer to that is "How the hell COULD you have known? There was literally no symptom, no sign, no indication, nothing".

I doubt there are many people on this forum who "ignore" the pain in their loved ones - friends - and family. When we see it I would say the vast majority of us try to do something about it. The problem is we do not see it - and there is often no way we could have - and we simply can not act on data we do not have short of excercising a complete paranoid world view where literally every one we know is on the point of suicide.

I recognize the problem of suicide in our society and like the majority of people I want to do something about it when and where I can. And one strong thing we can do is raise awareness about suicide and depression. But screaming judgemental "How Dare Yous" at people whos ability to do anything about it does not fit with their desire to is not likely to do more than ruffle feathers, raise hackles, and foster negativity on the issue.

Your post is riddled with your Ire - but I have read it three times and see literally no suggestions on what you propose for society to do better. So it remains entirely unclear A) What it is you are actually accusing people of in your "How Dare You" and What it is you want us to do better that we do not already do.

2 points.
1. Anger is a human emotion that is often a sign of underlying frustration or a deep dis-satisfaction.
2. There are no easy answers

Because depression and anxiety and other related mental issues have no simple straightforward solutions, it is often exasperating for everyone involved.

If only there were easy answers, but there aren't.

Sometimes the symptoms of depression can drive those who are most inclined to help away.

Understanding is probably the first step, both the understanding of the victim of depression, that others are out there who are trying to help, and the understanding of friends and family that it will take effort and consideration to help and it might be a bumpy road.

I agree with all of the above but I do not see that it addresses anything I wrote. Anger is one thing - but screaming "How dare you ignore it" at people is not justified by that anger. Many people are left confused and baffled by a suicide. Wishing they could have done something - but they could not have known. Screaming at them in this way will serve to do little more than make people who already feel bad - feel worse - and exacerbate their helplessness and guilt at not having been able to do something at the time.

There are no easy answers sure - I entirely agree - but I was not looking for "easy" answers from the OP in my post. I was looking for ANY positive suggestion at all. All I can see is random screaming that is not directed at anyone or anything in particular. An anger that people did the wrong thing - or did not do enough of the right thing - without ever highlighting what he or she thinks these right/wrong things are/were.

Understanding is great. I mentioned it in my post. We need to work harder than ever before to raise awareness and understanding of depression and suicide. And work hard against archaic notions and opinions on the subject. But all the understanding in the world will not help you if the person who committs suicide gave literally no outward sign at all. Quite the opposite in fact as many people who engage in suicide actually seem happier and more full of life than normal. Which is one of the main things that feed into peoples shock and confusion when it occours. For the majority of people in my experience - the person they know who fell to suicide was likely one of the people at the BOTTOM of their mental list of people who were ever likely to do it.

Penny Tration

Speaking as somebody who was suicidal for more years than I can count, I can see exactly where the op is coming from. I can also see where the people saying 'but a lot of suicidal people seem happy' are coming from.

I was the happiest person you could meet, outwardly. When I eventually admitted I needed help, everyone was shocked, friends and family. When I told my mother I'd been raped as a teenager, a few years after the fact, she couldn't believe I'd been so 'happy' while hiding such a huge secret.

Then the medical services.... My god. I went public. I was considered high risk because of suicide attempts. I waited four months to speak to a psychiatrist. On repeat appointments, I was with a different psychiatrist each time. there was no way I could open up, because I had to repeat the same thing to each new doctor. I waited a year for counselling. In this time, I was binge drinking. Psychiatrists asked what I'd drink on a night out. It was a scary amount, it could easily have poisoned me. Their notes said I was lying about it. So I refused to see them again.

Eventually, my parents offered me the money to go to therapy privately.

So, four years after I asked for help, I finally got a diagnosis (post traumatic stress, anxiety, bipolar) and finally got proper treatment, paying 130 euro per session.

Now, I'm still the same happy person my friends and family always saw. I still have very dark moments. Thankfully, I cab control them for the most part and no longer feel suicidal, even in my worst moments. I'd describe myself as a happy person, but now it's true. I am happy. I have a good life and I appreciate it.

Without medical intervention, I would probably be dead.

But my god, do you have to fight for it. And fighting is fcuking hard when you're depressed.

Not all suicidal people can be helped, though. Not all of them want help, and there will always be a small percentage of people for whom treatment doesn't work.

That said, medical help should be much more freely available. People need to be educated in spotting the signs, so they can potentially help. There is only so much that we, as normal people can do, though.

Annasopra

Lyaiera wrote: »

I wasn't directing that "how dare people ignore that pain!" part of the title at the After Hours admins. I was directing it at society who thinks that suicide is a terrible tragedy that could be prevented if the person looked for help.

Society is good. Irish culture is good. But not all of it is good. And a little understanding that people are in need of help, and no amount of anti-depressants or HSE waiting lists and therapists is going to solve the problem. EVERYONE! And I mean everyone needs to understand that some people can't cope. Some people just aren't as capable and need help and love and understanding. And they're good people, nothing wrong with them at all. They just need more and there's nothing wrong with wanting that. And there should be nothing wrong with giving that. And by **** do people need to care for those around them if they don't want to be washing their hands and plamássing about another suicide.

I don't understand actually what you are getting at here. I'm a bit lost reading your posts trying to actually understand what you are angry at and why.

Femme_Fatale

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with all of the above but I do not see that it addresses anything I wrote. Anger is one thing - but screaming "How dare you ignore it" at people is not justified by that anger. Many people are left confused and baffled by a suicide. Wishing they could have done something - but they could not have known. Screaming at them in this way will serve to do little more than make people who already feel bad - feel worse - and exacerbate their helplessness and guilt at not having been able to do something at the time.

There are no easy answers sure - I entirely agree - but I was not looking for "easy" answers from the OP in my post. I was looking for ANY positive suggestion at all. All I can see is random screaming that is not directed at anyone or anything in particular. An anger that people did the wrong thing - or did not do enough of the right thing - without ever highlighting what he or she thinks these right/wrong things are/were.

Very much agreed. Unnecesssarily accusatory and inflammatory thread title tbh. When people are clearly down, others reach out to them - as was the case on the thread last night. The OP obviously felt cared about; there wasn't even any customary AH messing, apart from a tiny bit of very light-hearted, well-meaning stuff which the OP appreciated.
When I went through my own dark period, I didn't tell people, yet they knew - and reached out to me. And were amazing. Very nearly as amazing as my fantastic doctor and counsellor, despite not having their qualifications.

If people don't display any outward signs, are others supposed to be inspired? You can't be asking everyone, even seemingly happy people, if they're ok. That expectation is going a bit overboard on the apportioning of responsibility.

Unless a person has directly contributed to the state of mind that led to another person's suicide, they are not responsible for their suicide.

Femme_Fatale

kneemos wrote: »

Blaming "the drink"seems to have become quite popular as an explanation for suicide,rather than seeing it as a symptom of the person's real problems.

"seems to have become quite popular"? That notion is as old as the hills. It would have been more popular in the past when there was less understanding of mental illness.

IvyTheTerrible

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

"seems to have become quite popular"? That notion is as old as the hills. It would have been more popular in the past when there was less understanding of mental illness.

People also seem to trot it out as a reason when it was nothing of the sort, some locals were saying that my brother has a problem with drink, his post mortem should he didn't have a drop of alcohol or other drug in him when he committed suicide.

KyussBishop

The problem with suicide as a topic is that people seem to fail to link it up to the bigger picture: We have not got a decent mental health service, and we have high unemployment and financial stress among people, due to the economy (and worsening public health services too) - all of this is having a very serious negative effect on society and many peoples mental and physical health - and with the current management of the economy, we do not have the ability to fund any changes here.

This is why I'm always going on about economic topics: Pretty much everything causing these societal problems, and the most effective solutions to these problems, all lie with resolving economic problems (and I've spent years reading up on it, to find alternatives/solutions - and there are alternatives which allow funding of all this) - and for what seems the vast majority of people, economics is the most boring and dry topic there is, so very few people care about it - and the quality of discussion in economic topics, is usually so dismissive/divisive and condescension/FUD/propaganda-filled, that it's pretty hard to talk about in the first place (and well, it is extremely politically useful for many relatively powerful people, to keep it this way).

That's where the starting point is though, for resolving many of our most important societal problems. It's as important a topic as politics itself, because it basically is politics, as it decides how we shape our society: Whether we will provide adequate public health/mental-health services or not, whether we will provide enough support to the unemployed to let them live a fulfilling life or not (rather than just subsisting), whether we will actually setup jobs programs to provide the unemployed paid jobs or not etc..

We have available alternatives for helping to resolve these problems, but we don't have the public knowledge or discussion of those alternatives - and discussing them is hard too, to the point that most people don't have an interest; not sure how any of that can be encouraged either.

BetterThanThou

There's definitely a big problem with the mental health service in this country. Over the last year or so I've suffered from depression(had it mildly beforehand, never caused me any problems). I wanted help before the problem got even worse than it was. I pretty much got told because I had a history of some minor violent outbursts that I could not be treated if I was not willing to take medication. Which I am not willing to take, as I was on similar medications for another reason before, and I've found they help very little and have severe side effects. Luckily, I've managed to somewhat get my problem under control through lifestyle changes. But I had practically no help from any medical professional, bar my GP, who did everything in his power. Sadly, some people need more than a lifestyle change but aren't willing to go on medication.

Muise...

I didn't get to read the thread last night, but there's a long long thread called "let's all laugh at people with depression" where you can let off steam OP - you're shouting into the wind here and pissing off people who might be sympathetic by accusing them of abusing powers they do not have. There is no catch-all solution for suicides - for some, suicide is the solution: they choose to die, we have no choice but to live with it.

Lyaiera

I'm not trying to accuse anyone of abusing powers, I'm not trying to single anyone out for a misdeed. I am saying that mental health is a societal problem that is looked at in a piecemeal way.

KyussBishop talked about it a bit. The economic problems we've had have been a huge problem for people, the lack of life and dignity from being unemployed and struggling for financial independence is a problem for a lot of people. Others have touched on the failure of the mental health system, seeing doctors for 10 minutes once every three months where they ask, "Have you thought about killing yourself? Are you getting out of the house?" and then leave it at that for another three months. The lack of access to therapists, etc.

I was at a talk given by the director of one of the suicide support lines and he stripped all of those problems down to one basic problem, intolerance. It's been plainly obvious from the homophobia threads, the many dole scrounger threads, threads about students, etc. etc. that people think of all of these issues in the abstract. As some political debate that needs to be addressed at government levels and with strategies and funding, through the media and through public debate. And the director of this suicide support line said that while all that is very welcome it's the abstraction of these problems that causes huge issues for people. These aren't abstract problems. These problems are the day to day life of many people. There are people waking up in despair and going to bed in despair and filling their days with whatever distractions they can. There are people reading threads about homophobia where at best a bunch of trolls insult their life. There are people reading about the long term unemployed when they've tried to get a job anywhere and everywhere, sometimes even being told they should just leave the country.

People see a death as a sad thing, and it is. What's sadder is that there's people living this reality every single day and there are some who see it as a debating point, a reason to argue for economic realities, or definitions of family and people forget that these aren't debating points. This is someone's reality. And for many of those someones it leads to despair and sometimes even suicide.

Muise...

I don't really agree. There is a lot wrong with society, and many people are affected by it, but it is not the direct cause of mental illness, specifically suicide. That is far more personal and variable and as mysterious as we all are to each other. To paraphrase Tolstoy: "All happy people are alike; every unhappy person is unhappy in their own way."

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

I don't really agree. There is a lot wrong with society, and many people are affected by it, but it is not the direct cause of mental illness, specifically suicide. That is far more personal and variable and as mysterious as we all are to each other. To paraphrase Tolstoy: "All happy people are alike; every unhappy person is unhappy in their own way."

That's, to put it simply, not true:

The 2008 global economic crisis may have led to almost 5,000 additional suicides across the world in 2009, including almost 100 in Ireland, according to a major new study.

The excess suicide rate in Ireland as a result of the crisis is one of the highest in Europe, the research published today in the British Medical Journal shows.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/economic-crisis-linked-to-100-suicides-in-state-by-study-1.1531208

The economic crisis - and presumably the everyday difficulties many have faced because of it - has directly led to an increase in suicide rates; and that's only one way in which it has affected public health in a negative way.

There are a lot of different reasons people commit suicide, yes, but a lot of them relate directly to well known societal problems.

Femme_Fatale

But what about those studies that indicate suicide rates drop during crisis times like war?

Muise...

KyussBishop wrote: »

That's, to put it simply, not true:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/economic-crisis-linked-to-100-suicides-in-state-by-study-1.1531208

The economic crisis - and presumably the everyday difficulties many have faced because of it - has directly led to an increase in suicide rates; and that's only one way in which it has affected public health in a negative way.

I said it's not the direct cause; the direct cause being the person choosing to do it. Of course there's an overlap, and in many cases a strong symptomatic connection, but I think you'd rather use this as a stick to beat your drum than admit that individual sufferers need individual care.

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

I said it's not the direct cause; the direct cause being the person choosing to do it. Of course there's an overlap, and in many cases a strong symptomatic connection, but I think you'd rather use this as a stick to beat your drum than admit that individual sufferers need individual care.

Maybe I'm misreading you then: Do you think that resolving a lot of todays societal problems, will resolve many of the causes of mental illness, and lead to a reduction in suicide?

I agree that people have their different reasons, but personally I believe that quite a lot of those reasons can be sourced back to a variety of different societal problems.

Femme_Fatale

"It's society's fault" are three of my most hated words. How the hell does mass anonymous blaming (not including the person doing the blaming of course) help anyone? The blame fetish is very puzzling. A lot of the time, if a person is driven to suicide, there is nobody to blame. That person was just in an horrific place and saw no other way... :-/

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But what about those studies that indicate suicide rates drop during crisis times like war?

That seems to be something still in debate - not that rates are lower during war, but rather, that the reasons for that are more complicated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_suicide#Social_factors_and_suicide

In either case, I don't see what that statistics would rebut here?

Femme_Fatale

KyussBishop wrote: »

I don't see what that statistics would rebut here?

That societal issues cause suicide.

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

"It's society's fault" are three of my most hated words. How the hell does mass anonymous blaming (not including the person doing the blaming of course) help anyone? The blame fetish is very puzzling. A lot of the time, if a person is driven to suicide, there is nobody to blame. That person was just in an horrific place and saw no other way... :-/

If someone is in extreme financial difficulty and is driven to suicide by that, then that's a societal problem, where a failure in the political/economic/social management of the country, has failed a person and they have ended up committing suicide - what is so controversial about that?

I agree that a lot of suicides don't root back to societal problems, but many do, so what is wrong with acknowledging that?

Muise...

KyussBishop wrote: »

Maybe I'm misreading you then: Do you think that resolving a lot of todays societal problems, will resolve many of the causes of mental illness, and lead to a reduction in suicide?

No. I think it's part of us. Whether it's triggered by societal problems, unbearable illness, rage, shame, despair, not having anyone there at the decisive moment; it's something that some people do. I think some would hang themselves in Utopia.

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

That societal issues cause suicide.

That there are less suicides during war, doesn't rebut that societal issues cause suicide:
1: Not all societal issues contribute to suicide, so it depends on what issues are being talked about, and
2: Not all suicides are caused by societal issues, but a number of them are.

naughtysmurf

KyussBishop wrote: »

We have not got a decent mental health service,

I'd go a bit further than that & say that in my experience, the mental health service in this country is dire

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

No. I think it's part of us. Whether it's triggered by societal problems, unbearable illness, rage, shame, despair, not having anyone there at the decisive moment; it's something that some people do. I think some would hang themselves in Utopia.

I think that's a far faaar more harmful cop-out, which is a directly harmful view to perpetuate about suicide, than acknowledging societal problems contribute to and can cause suicide.

To say all suicides are down to societal problems is harmful, but so is denying that many suicides are down to societal problems; it's that kind of stuff which is harmful, by distracting from the problems that do result in higher rates of suicide.

The way our societies are run - in a large variety of ways - does contribute to suicide rates, and deflecting attention away from that prevents these wider issues being addressed, and is a disservice to those who have committed suicide due to these pressures they have been faced with, by societal issues.


Some people go through a hard enough time because of their circumstances (circumstances which in some cases, may be brought about due to societal issues), that - to be frank - I can't say that suicide is as irrational a choice as it seems on the outside (depending on the exact issue, of course); and I know this, from having experience of certain issues directly myself as well.

Maybe there's some more subtle point I'm missing in what you're saying, or maybe I'm mistaking you as taking too absolute a position on this, but if I'm not misinterpreting it, that's a pretty harmful position to take on suicide, which would contribute to inaction on important issues that relate to it.

KyussBishop

Regarding mental health, there is a very good US-focused article here which I read earlier (long though), which show some (quite worrying) ways in which college students in the US, who suffer mental health issues, are failed and even punished as a result of it:
http://mag.newsweek.com/2014/02/07/colleges-flunk-mental-health.html

Annasopra

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

"It's society's fault" are three of my most hated words. How the hell does mass anonymous blaming (not including the person doing the blaming of course) help anyone? The blame fetish is very puzzling. A lot of the time, if a person is driven to suicide, there is nobody to blame. That person was just in an horrific place and saw no other way... :-/

And a lot of other times there are societal causes

Pug160

Well from what I saw, the person was given encouragement and numbers to ring etc. There wasn't really much more to discuss in that particular thread.

Femme_Fatale

mango salsa wrote: »

And a lot of other times there are societal causes

Pointing the finger at the rest of society (with the odd token "we") as being to blame does nothing. Making whatever changes one can, at grassroots level, is actually putting money where one's mouth is.

Annasopra

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Pointing the finger at the rest of society (with the odd token "we") as being to blame does nothing. Making whatever changes one can, at grassroots level, is actually putting money where one's mouth is.

Well no not quite. Homophobic culture coming from society was identified as a cause for a lot of youth suicides. And now new school guidelines for bullying spcifically address homophobia. In fact in order to address a problem you first of all need to identify and name it.

darced

This post has been deleted.

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Pointing the finger at the rest of society (with the odd token "we") as being to blame does nothing. Making whatever changes one can, at grassroots level, is actually putting money where one's mouth is.

Isn't calling for grassroots action, for more people on an individual level to 'do something', kind of pointing the finger at the rest of society? (that they are just 'not doing enough', somehow)

If you point to a specific societal problem, like unemployment or mango salsa's example of homophobia, you are not pointing the finger at the rest of society, you are pointing it at a precise problem that you can directly do something about.

The kind of grassroots action you talk of there, means dissipating/wasting effort in a way that is as good as doing nothing, unless you also solve the root problem - if you instead put some of that effort directly into a specific/known societal problem, you are directly doing something about that problem, which will prevent/lessen that problem from causing/worsening mental health issues.


A person who commits suicide due to personal abuse, for their gender/orientation/appearance or such, has developed mental health problems due to societal pressures, and has committed suicide - sure, we should have better grassroots/societal awareness of mental health problems, so there may be more support available to that person - but we need to deal with the root societal problem to actually solve that specific issue, because that persons 'bad patches' weren't just temorary problems in their head, that they need to get past, they are real external problems, that negatively impact their lives and need to be solved by societal change.

It would be such an injustice (and actively harmful), if such a persons problems were trivialized as some incomprehensible mental health issue, rather than recognized as a wider societal problem that needs to be dealt with.

RDM_83 again

Lyaiera wrote: »

People see a death as a sad thing, and it is. What's sadder is that there's people living this reality every single day and there are some who see it as a debating point, a reason to argue for economic realities, or definitions of family and people forget that these aren't debating points. This is someone's reality. And for many of those someones it leads to despair and sometimes even suicide.

But whats wrong with having these debates, even if they are sometimes nasty and trollish, I can not see how reading something about somebody going on about gay marriage not being real marriage on boards.ie can have a real impact on somebody or even on the less moderated sites you find some anonymous fool saying "god hates fags" this shouldn't have an impact unless there is something wrong at a much deeper level.
Where I can see your point is the intolerance people face in their actual life, being afraid to have a moment of PDA with their partner for fear of abuse having to repress parts of their personality, being afraid to open up about their mental health issues I am sure these constant challenges in the real world build up.
In terms of the unemployment thing, I was unemployed for a decent span of time a couple of years back and I found it absolutely horrible and it opened my eyes to what it must be like to be long term unemployed and how draining and isolating it must be, I would read boards and get annoyed about some of the assumptions but the thing is all it did was annoy me, what was actually bad was my real life situation and what solved it was a real life solution (getting occasional work and going back to college), if nobody was going on about dole scroungers or how it was easy to get a job I would have been in exactly the same shiity boat.

Ironically though I am guilty about being all talk, I was posting here about a direct intervention scheme at hotspots like one example I know of and thats all I did and a couple of months later a close friend was dead in exactly the circumstances and location a scheme like I was thinking about would have helped to prevent.

Femme_Fatale

KyussBishop wrote: »

Isn't calling for grassroots action, for more people on an individual level to 'do something', kind of pointing the finger at the rest of society? (that they are just 'not doing enough', somehow)

If you point to a specific societal problem, like unemployment or mango salsa's example of homophobia, you are not pointing the finger at the rest of society, you are pointing it at a precise problem that you can directly do something about.

The kind of grassroots action you talk of there, means dissipating/wasting effort in a way that is as good as doing nothing, unless you also solve the root problem - if you instead put some of that effort directly into a specific/known societal problem, you are directly doing something about that problem, which will prevent/lessen that problem from causing/worsening mental health issues.


A person who commits suicide due to personal abuse, for their gender/orientation/appearance or such, has developed mental health problems due to societal pressures, and has committed suicide - sure, we should have better grassroots/societal awareness of mental health problems, so there may be more support available to that person - but we need to deal with the root societal problem to actually solve that specific issue, because that persons 'bad patches' weren't just temorary problems in their head, that they need to get past, they are real external problems, that negatively impact their lives and need to be solved by societal change.

It would be such an injustice (and actively harmful), if such a persons problems were trivialized as some incomprehensible mental health issue, rather than recognized as a wider societal problem that needs to be dealt with.

I didn't refer to calling for grassroots action, I meant actually doing it.
All we can do to stamp out homophobia is challenge it in our own individual ways, get involved in groups.
But it is the person carrying out the homophobic bullying who is the one at fault; not "society".

cuana

I care, many of us care. If we were awarded the opportunity to help others most of us will help. People have amazed me with there strength, there courage who have fought at great length there problems before seeking help. Many of those thousands of people you talk of often try and do this ALONE!! It is easy for us to say that we can dedicate time to supporting others of course we would but only if we either suspect that they may be struggling or if someone finally opens up & admits to having a problem. For many we never got that opportunity.

There can be negative situations when someone does finally seek help they may have confided in the wrong people who created further barriers through there sheer lack of understanding/ignorance whatever often for many creating further feelings of isolation but every case/circumstance is different. Thankfully peoples attitudes are changing.

Anyhow reading this if you are struggling don't let that put you off a problem shared often comes with relief & for many will empower them to move on & seek further help! Sometimes the hardest part about any situation is speaking out loud!! That final moment when you admit I'm not coping very well right now but that's ok most of us at some stage in our lives will need a little support. Using the resources or support groups set up are a great start as they are in fact equipped with the knowledge & skills to support those that have been struggling with suicidal thoughts. They will encourage you to speak to family & friends which is so important and its a start.

If you suspect someone close to you is struggling take the time out make time to just spend time with them & if you feel comfortable broach the subject in comfortable surroundings often many just need reassurance & the flood gates might just open up! If not just say I'm worried about you if you need my support just ask for it. (whatever you do don't make a huge fuss! just go easy on people)


I've watched people battle for years who just will just not get help no matter how much love, support there is there for them. I've lost a friend who I never once suspected had problems. Its a crap situation its a minefield there are so many rights & wrongs!

Take care of your mental health people

Lyaiera

What really annoys me is the thinking that if you get help, you'll be ok. If you open up, it will all work out. If you seek support, it's there for you. That's not reality.

I want to debunk the idea of strength and weakness. The anti-PC brigade would have us believe "We're not all special." Actually, your child is crappy. There's nothing amazing about them, there's nothing to tell anyone else about, they have no additional value. Who cares?

You see threads about people travelling, "Does travelling broaden your horizons?" "People who go out foreign think they're better!" I've lived in Cork my entire life and every night I go out I discover something new. All the people I meet, whether it's the first night I've met them or the fifth make me feel like there's something amazing going on. I genuinely care for people. They're good people and often that is not enough. It's not enough that these people honestly care for each other, are looking for a good night out, or are looking to dance. People, no matter what are inherently valuable. And there's so much evidence to the contrary. That's what day to day life is. Day to day life is proving value and showing your worth.

People who can't pay their mortgages. People who borrowed too much during the boom times. People who are living at the side of trains in Calcutta. People slaving away under Chinese labour in Africa. Whether your pressure is not having someone to hold you on a Tuesday night, or whether your pressure is living in a South African ghetto, these are things people should not have to put up with.

I took this global, and for a lot of people that's too much to deal with. I often can't deal with that. There's an idea that people can contribute to society. That there are good people and bad people. People who contribute and people who need to be looked after. We haven't found an economic system that balances all of this. There are some people who can work, and some people who can't. There are people who can be politicians and there are people who can't understand politics. None of those people are worth less or more. And that's what I mean by strengths and weaknesses. It's not about what you contribute, it's not about a game theory solution. It's not about who knows and who doesn't know. The reality is that humanity is special. No-one, not one of us is deserving of pain. There are sacrifices that are being made daily. People going without and people not being happy. And every societal, every political and every economic solution should serve to fulfil those people. Until that happens there will be suicides. And there will be people posting about it on Boards.ie at 3am and being told to look up a stop-gap measure at the end of a phone line.

ardle1

kneemos wrote: »

Blaming "the drink"seems to have become quite popular as an explanation for suicide,rather than seeing it as a symptom of the person's real problems.

Agreed. But lets not underestimate the huge 'symptom' that drink can be in a persons negative and depressing suicidal thoughts!

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I didn't refer to calling for grassroots action, I meant actually doing it.
All we can do to stamp out homophobia is challenge it in our own individual ways, get involved in groups.
But it is the person carrying out the homophobic bullying who is the one at fault; not "society".

Yes but think back to when people were able to homophobically abuse people without that being illegal (hell, homosexuality was illegal), because of a lack of adequate legislation against that kind of discrimination - that was a wider societal problem, that required political/legal action to resolve.

Annasopra

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I didn't refer to calling for grassroots action, I meant actually doing it.
All we can do to stamp out homophobia is challenge it in our own individual ways, get involved in groups.
But it is the person carrying out the homophobic bullying who is the one at fault; not "society".

You can't just say that things happen in a vacuum. If we are discussing homophobic bullying the reasons for that are societal and cultural. People learn to bully from other people. People learn homophobia from other people.

Muise...

Lyaiera wrote: »

What really annoys me is the thinking that if you get help, you'll be ok. If you open up, it will all work out. If you seek support, it's there for you. That's not reality.

I want to debunk the idea of strength and weakness. The anti-PC brigade would have us believe "We're not all special." Actually, your child is crappy. There's nothing amazing about them, there's nothing to tell anyone else about, they have no additional value. Who cares?

You see threads about people travelling, "Does travelling broaden your horizons?" "People who go out foreign think they're better!" I've lived in Cork my entire life and every night I go out I discover something new. All the people I meet, whether it's the first night I've met them or the fifth make me feel like there's something amazing going on. I genuinely care for people. They're good people and often that is not enough. It's not enough that these people honestly care for each other, are looking for a good night out, or are looking to dance. People, no matter what are inherently valuable. And there's so much evidence to the contrary. That's what day to day life is. Day to day life is proving value and showing your worth.

People who can't pay their mortgages. People who borrowed too much during the boom times. People who are living at the side of trains in Calcutta. People slaving away under Chinese labour in Africa. Whether your pressure is not having someone to hold you on a Tuesday night, or whether your pressure is living in a South African ghetto, these are things people should not have to put up with.

I took this global, and for a lot of people that's too much to deal with. I often can't deal with that. There's an idea that people can contribute to society. That there are good people and bad people. People who contribute and people who need to be looked after. We haven't found an economic system that balances all of this. There are some people who can work, and some people who can't. There are people who can be politicians and there are people who can't understand politics. None of those people are worth less or more. And that's what I mean by strengths and weaknesses. It's not about what you contribute, it's not about a game theory solution. It's not about who knows and who doesn't know. The reality is that humanity is special. No-one, not one of us is deserving of pain. There are sacrifices that are being made daily. People going without and people not being happy. And every societal, every political and every economic solution should serve to fulfil those people. Until that happens there will be suicides. And there will be people posting about it on Boards.ie at 3am and being told to look up a stop-gap measure at the end of a phone line.

I really don't know what you want from readers on this thread. You'll wear all of us out going round in circles like this. Yes, it hurts. Why are you so determined to feel the whole world's pain as well as your own? What use is that to anyone? Try the serenity prayer, meditation, analysis, one day at a time, deep breaths and baby steps, see your GP, call the Samaritans. But take it easy on us and on yourself.

Yearning4Stormy

Mea culpa, Lyaiera at. al.,

I haven't read (all) the replies to your most excellent OP (and how I hate that abbreviation)... and to be honest I'm somewhat reluctant because it (usually) descends into a bashing from some fronts. I was discharged from a clinic in Dublin this afternoon, so I'm feeling somewhat raw and lost tbh. The only thing I can add is hugs right back at you and a great bit of prose from my friend, Doods http://www.doodlekennelly.com/agoraphobia/

"Whatever the reason, if you know somebody who is very obviously seeking attention, please, for love’s sake – give it to them. When did it become an insult to say that someone seeks love and sympathy and attention? If a person needs it, there is no shame in that. And yes, sometimes it is exhausting to be on the receiving end of a needy friend or lover, and of course you should never try and take on what only a health care professional can handle, but kindness is everything in this world, and ask yourself – would you want to be without your friend?"

ellavin

I lost my friend 4 years ago three days after my birthday I live on with the pain ever since..