Career opportunities - primary or secondary teaching?

Rodrigues

Hello all,

A quick question. I have 90% decided to do the Hibernia postgrad primary teaching course but I have a niggling doubt that my job prospects would be better in secondary teaching. Makes no odds really, as my heart is set on primary teaching, but just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the matter. I'm a 41yr old female, BA Irish and French - fluent in both. Re the primary teaching, I used to play uillean pipes, accordion and whistle and still dance the odd set when I get the chance. Worked as a classroom assistant for a year a long time ago and loved it. Re secondary, I subbed for a few weeks and wasn't that mad about it. Had no problems with discipline in either setting. I've spent the last 15 years working in journalism and PR and before the avalanche of pessimism descends on me, YES! I know it's the worst possible time to become a teacher etc etc - I'm determined to be optimistic! Last detail - as I have small kiddies I won't be able to move around that much, so will be based in Co Cork and hoping for work in the gaelscoileanna.

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

sawdoubters

will you get a job with Hibernia postgrad primary teaching course

you might not


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056265672


There are five state funded Colleges of Education which offer primary initial teacher education courses which are recognised by the Teaching Council for primary teaching -Marino Institute of Education, Griffith Ave., Dublin 9www.mie.ieMary Immaculate College, Limerickwww.mic.ul.ieSt. Patrick’s College, Drumcondra, Dublin 9www.spd.dcu.ieThe Church Of Ireland College of Education, Rathmines, Dublin 6www.cice.ieThe Froebel College of Education, Blackrock, County Dublinwww.froebel.ie -
http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/-New-Teachers/-Initial-Teacher-Education-ITE-Primary.html

Rodrigues

sawdoubters wrote: »

will you get a job with Hibernia postgrad primary teaching course

you might not[\quote]


Hmmm. 4 in Dublin and 1 in Limerick. All full time with a ban on working without prior agreement of college. I'll have to take my chances on Hibernia unless someone can give me substantial proof that there is a real difference in employment prospects from Hibernia.

seavill

Teaching is not something you go into unless your heart is fully in it. You cannot decide this based on job prospects. Either you want to teach primary or secondary. Clearly by your OP its primary so you go with that if it is what you really want to do. Jobs are poor in either but even if they were better in primary this would certainly not be how to make a life decision

Rodrigues

seavill wrote: »

Teaching is not something you go into unless your heart is fully in it. You cannot decide this based on job prospects. Either you want to teach primary or secondary. Clearly by your OP its primary so you go with that if it is what you really want to do. Jobs are poor in either but even if they were better in primary this would certainly not be how to make a life decision

I'm sorry, but when exactly did asking the opinions of people working in the field become an invalid research tool? And how on earth do you presume to know what factors I have already considered? Thank you for your input all the same. If you have anything constructive to add I'd be happy to read it.

seavill

Rodrigues wrote: »

I'm sorry, but when exactly did asking the opinions of people working in the field become an invalid research tool? And how on earth do you presume to know what factors I have already considered? Thank you for your input all the same. If you have anything constructive to add I'd be happy to read it.

Where did I say anything about it being an invalid research tool, what are you on about? Where did I say anything about what you have considered and not considered.

You outlined that you are considering both, your heart is in primary but could swing to secondary and you asked for "any advice you can give"

I offered my advice, I didn't question you, I didn't comment on your post in any way, I didn't comment on your life or decisions in any way. I offered my opinion based on my expereince being a teacher which is, if you go back and rread my post again, teaching is only for you when your heart is in it, I wouldn't decide my future based on career prospects it needs to be based on where your heart leads you which is clearly primary.

Now rather than attack someones opinion (that you asked for) maybe read the posts carefully as they were intended, as advice and take whatever advice is given, advice here might be some you like and don't like but you are the one that came on here asking for it.

Hope thats a bit more constructive for you

Rodrigues

"Jobs are poor in either but even if they were better in primary this would certainly not be how to make a life decision"

By your tone, you clearly confused me with one of your students. I'm sure they all love being sniped at though.

seavill

Rodrigues wrote: »

"Jobs are poor in either but even if they were better in primary this would certainly not be how to make a life decision"

By your tone, you clearly confused me with one of your students. I'm sure they all love being sniped at though.

You asked for my opinion I gave you my opinion if you read sniping into it thats your problem not mine. this and my last post are written in an annoyed tone alright but only due to your response.

I would give the same advice to my students, my friends or my family. I had the exact same discussion with a niece last month doing here CAO. Same thing. Do what you are interested in is the only way to go. You can only be happy in life if you are doing things you enjoy, not doing something for the sake of it to make money.

Again either you want responses or you don't. Certainly don't go reading things into posts that are not there. I am here every day responding to peoples posts offering an opinion. People may not always agree but when someone asks a genuine question they get a genuine answer. Despite your poor response to me I still stand over the first piece of advice which was don't make life decisions based on money. Do what you love first.

Read whatever you want into it but don't attack people that answer your posts, whether you like the answer or not

Rodrigues

seavill wrote: »

I still stand over the first piece of advice which was don't make life decisions based on money. Do what you love first.

Let's call it quits. You stand over your original post and I stand over my reaction to a tone that I find condescending and snippy. I think it's clear from my OP that my heart is in primary teaching, but I also have a family to support and a mortgage to pay. Therefore, I am not only entitled, but obliged to query the financial aspects of any career change.

evolving_doors

Rodrigues wrote: »

Let's call it quits. You stand over your original post and I stand over my reaction to a tone that I find condescending and snippy. I think it's clear from my OP that my heart is in primary teaching, but I also have a family to support and a mortgage to pay. Therefore, I am not only entitled, but obliged to query the financial aspects of any career change.

I suppose in fairness there are lots of requests for info on the teaching job situation on this forum and the advice is generally along Seavill's lines....to put it mildly ..things are so bad that you may as well go with what you think you'd like the best (hence the 'forget about the money' comment)..

This is my perception of things though for the 2 options

Primary...If you do get offered some work then it should be at least be 'full days' and you can build on this 'full day' work.
Secondary... If you do get offered some work, at the very minimum it could be a few hours a week which could be worse than the dole.and you might be expected to hang around for the full week..and that could go on for years...

Maybe also consider the starting salary too (that's if you get a permanent job!)..About 30k after 2 years in college and about 5 years tipping around doing substitution work here and there..( if your other half is working you could potentially be better off staying at home with tax credits,creche fees,university fees etc)
So maybe if the money/mortgage are a concern then consider the prospect of doing a different course and giving it 7 years...you could do a completely different degree and be up to PhD standard by then!
Depending on the age of your kids too...primary school teaching might be a bit more conducive in terms of the finishing time every day...collecting kids and all that...although I know teachers don't run out the door the same time as their students either.
Hope that helps.

Rodrigues

Armelodie wrote: »

I suppose in fairness there are lots of requests for info on the teaching job situation on this forum and the advice is generally along Seavill's lines....to put it mildly ..things are so bad that you may as well go with what you think you'd like the best (hence the 'forget about the money' comment)..

This is my perception of things though for the 2 options

Primary...If you do get offered some work then it should be at least be 'full days' and you can build on this 'full day' work.
Secondary... If you do get offered some work, at the very minimum it could be a few hours a week which could be worse than the dole.and you might be expected to hang around for the full week..and that could go on for years...

Maybe also consider the starting salary too (that's if you get a permanent job!)..About 30k after 2 years in college and about 5 years tipping around doing substitution work here and there..( if your other half is working you could potentially be better off staying at home with tax credits,creche fees,university fees etc)
So maybe if the money/mortgage are a concern then consider the prospect of doing a different course and giving it 7 years...you could do a completely different degree and be up to PhD standard by then!
Depending on the age of your kids too...primary school teaching might be a bit more conducive in terms of the finishing time every day...collecting kids and all that...although I know teachers don't run out the door the same time as their students either.
Hope that helps.

I know the money is just miserable in both jobs. Such a shame I wasn't able to do the conversion course before this. I must be mad, but primary teaching is the only job that actually makes me happy when I think about going in to work every day. (When I'm 95 and finally get a permanent post). What irritates me is that I can't put my finger on why I preferred primary to secondary - I end up wondering if it's just because I had less time teaching secondary - if so, I might like it just as well - and so on and so forth...

Thanks for your thoughts anyhow.

tusk

Perhaps because primary children still have that little bit of endearing innocence we all miss so much out here in the real world.

Rodrigues

Rodrigues wrote: »

I know the money is just miserable in both jobs. Such a shame I wasn't able to do the conversion course before this. I must be mad, but primary teaching is the only job that actually makes me happy when I think about going in to work every day. (When I'm 95 and finally get a permanent post). What irritates me is that I can't put my finger on why I preferred primary to secondary - I end up wondering if it's just because I had less time teaching secondary - if so, I might like it just as well - and so on and so forth...

Thanks for your thoughts anyhow.

Oh and hubby won't be working :-( so I will be the main breadwinner. I'm hoping I'll also be able to do some freelance PR and journalism to make ends meet.

Rodrigues

tusk wrote: »

Perhaps because primary children still have that little bit of endearing innocence we all miss so much out here in the real world.

Yes, maybe. I do remember feeling that in a way it wasn't work at all, I enjoyed it so much.

whiteandlight

I don't think you are going to like this post but here goes.

1. 15 years ago classrooms were very very different. You need to redo some work in the classroom in today's environment as this is a serious jump in career.
2. IMO (and only my opinion) you would be crazy to go into teaching. You have young children, are not footloose enough to move to jobs and would be the main bread winner in the family. There is a massive over supply of teachers. You would be paying a significant fee to do the course and face several years after that with sub work. You may be lucky, but most aren't.

I love teaching but even as a young teacher with no dependents I stress out every year worrying about next year and if I will still have a job. I'm married two years but kids have been postponed until I have a good CID or permanency-I just won't take the chance

tusk

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I don't think you are going to like this post but here goes.

1. 15 years ago classrooms were very very different. You need to redo some work in the classroom in today's environment as this is a serious jump in career.
2. IMO (and only my opinion) you would be crazy to go into teaching. You have young children, are not footloose enough to move to jobs and would be the main bread winner in the family. There is a massive over supply of teachers. You would be paying a significant fee to do the course and face several years after that with sub work. You may be lucky, but most aren't.

I love teaching but even as a young teacher with no dependents I stress out every year worrying about next year and if I will still have a job. I'm married two years but kids have been postponed until I have a good CID or permanency-I just won't take the chance

Sadly the state of the nation we live in right now. It can be very tough indeed

Rodrigues

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I don't think you are going to like this post but here goes.

1. 15 years ago classrooms were very very different. You need to redo some work in the classroom in today's environment as this is a serious jump in career.
2. IMO (and only my opinion) you would be crazy to go into teaching. You have young children, are not footloose enough to move to jobs and would be the main bread winner in the family. There is a massive over supply of teachers. You would be paying a significant fee to do the course and face several years after that with sub work. You may be lucky, but most aren't.

I love teaching but even as a young teacher with no dependents I stress out every year worrying about next year and if I will still have a job. I'm married two years but kids have been postponed until I have a good CID or permanency-I just won't take the chance

You're right, I don't like it one bit, but that doesn't make your point any less true...

I'd love to see a good report on the issue of oversupply. Is there no correlation at all between the number of vacant posts and the number of teacher training places? Might be a question worth another thread.

whiteandlight

Rodrigues wrote: »

You're right, I don't like it one bit, but that doesn't make your point any less true...

I'd love to see a good report on the issue of oversupply. Is there no correlation at all between the number of vacant posts and the number of teacher training places? Might be a question worth another thread.

No correlation. The numbers on these courses have expanded hugely because they rake in money for the colleges. They don't worry about those finding jobs. Even graduating 5 years ago many of my classmates are stil abroad due to lack of work (2nd level).

Rodrigues

Musicmental85 wrote: »

No correlation. The numbers on these courses have expanded hugely because they rake in money for the colleges. They don't worry about those finding jobs. Even graduating 5 years ago many of my classmates are stil abroad due to lack of work (2nd level).

What about the unions? Are they not kicking up murder? I'm abroad so not the most up to date.

evolving_doors

Rodrigues wrote: »

What about the unions?

Good Question..

Rodrigues wrote: »

Are they not kicking up murder?

Kind of

Rodrigues wrote: »

I'm abroad so not the most up to date.

I reckon the grass is definitely greener from our perspective over here, lets just say it's a looooong story. But....theres a nice little thread HERE started just before Christmas that should bring you up to speed....let us know your thoughts.

dory

First off, definitely no correlation between places on courses and jobs. Those courses make a mint for the colleges.

I agree with the above that you would be mad, but if money is not important to you....then maybe. But things will be very tight for a long time especially if your partner isn't working. I'd say go with primary as at least with that you'll get full hours. With secondary you could start on 6 hours if you're lucky and make €7.5k a year. I know a good few people on those hours. They have weekend jobs too which you may not like the sound of with kids.

EDIT: If your Irish is very good then you could have a better chance than others. Lots of people are looking for jobs with very little Irish and aren't getting a look in.

byhookorbycrook

tusk wrote: »

Perhaps because primary children still have that little bit of endearing innocence we all miss so much out here in the real world.

I actually lol-ed!:D You do need to get some observation days in primary. Not all primary kids are endearing or innocent by a long stretch.

byhookorbycrook

dory wrote: »

I'd say go with primary as at least with that you'll get full hours. /QUOTE]Not true, plenty of primary teachers are lucky to even get a few hours resource/learning support per week.

Rodrigues

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I actually lol-ed!:D You do need to get some observation days in primary. Not all primary kids are endearing or innocent by a long stretch.

Hmmm. In the year I spent as a classroom assistant we had a 5 yr old under psychiatric care who had frequent screaming fits and violent tantrums, a 7yr old who was totally closed and sullen and plenty of others who had their moments and issues in one way or another. Ok, so none of that was yesterday, but I don't think I have a rose-tinted view of teaching at all. In fact, if all kids were sweet and obedient, there's no way in hell I'd be considering it as a career. I felt truly privileged to be part of a team that really helped all the kids to develop in a secure environment.

Rodrigues

Rodrigues wrote: »

Hmmm. In the year I spent as a classroom assistant we had a 5 yr old under psychiatric care who had frequent screaming fits and violent tantrums, a 7yr old who was totally closed and sullen and plenty of others who had their moments and issues in one way or another. Ok, so none of that was yesterday, but I don't think I have a rose-tinted view of teaching at all. In fact, if all kids were sweet and obedient, there's no way in hell I'd be considering it as a career. I felt truly privileged to be part of a team that really helped all the kids to develop in a secure environment.

And then again, what do I know? So those of you with years of experience teaching - what HAS changed? Lots if people keep telling me that the classroom us nothing like it used to be 15 years ago... I find it hard to believe that things are so totally different???

byhookorbycrook

Yes , things have totally changed. Teachers are drowning in paperwork, the curriculum is overloaded, classrooms have children whose first language is not English, there are children with special needs whose support is totally inadequate ("access to an SNA!!")there are parents who think little Johnny can do no wrong who will shout at teachers and even assault them. There are children for whom your heart will break, who, given any support from home ,could reach their potential. Then there are all the extra hours we give to train teams, prepare children for sacraments, attend professional development courses on our own time and at our own cost, none of which count as "Croke Park" hours.

I love teaching, each day is different and presents new challenges. There is nothing on earth like seeing a child finally "get it" but our DES seem to want to blindly follow an English system which has been a disaster.

You really need to be in the classroom to see just how much things have changed, the above is off the top of my head, I could write pages.

donegal11

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Yes , things have totally changed. Teachers are drowning in paperwork, the curriculum is overloaded, classrooms have children whose first language is not English, there are children with special needs whose support is totally inadequate ("access to an SNA!!")there are parents who think little Johnny can do no wrong who will shout at teachers and even assault them. There are children for whom your heart will break, who, given any support from home ,could reach their potential. Then there are all the extra hours we give to train teams, prepare children for sacraments, attend professional development courses on our own time and at our own cost, none of which count as "Croke Park" hours.

I love teaching, each day is different and presents new challenges. There is nothing on earth like seeing a child finally "get it" but our DES seem to want to blindly follow an English system which has been a disaster.

You really need to be in the classroom to see just how much things have changed, the above is off the top of my head, I could write pages.

To play devil's advocate relatively speaking class ratios are historically low and while more SNA's are need in the past they were an uncommon luxury along with classroom assistants. While things have changed perspective is needed, challenging children with little support is hardly new and as I say relatively speaking in the past the amount of illiteracy among the adult population/parents the situation on paper at least was far worse, that's not to forget about the poverty in pre-celtic tiger Ireland.

whiteandlight

You aren't really comparing like with like though. Students with autism and severe disabilities did not go to mainstream schools. Many students with dyslexia, dyspraxia etc wee undiagnosed and it was just accepted that 'Tom' was a bit slow and left at that.
Nowadays severe disabilities are mainstreamed with little support. Many more students are diagnosed with difficulties (a good thing) but then given minimal support. The class teacher is expected to cater for all of these children with differentiated learning plans, teaching methods etc. The paperwork is immense.

Also while class ratios may be 'historically low', students don't sit rigidly in desks, there is no corporal punishment (thank god) and children and parents would complain pretty damn quick (and rightly so) if you tried to run lessons in the manner they were run in the past when ratios were bigger.

donegal11

Musicmental85 wrote: »

You aren't really comparing like with like though. Students with autism and severe disabilities did not go to mainstream schools. Many students with dyslexia, dyspraxia etc wee undiagnosed and it was just accepted that 'Tom' was a bit slow and left at that.
Nowadays severe disabilities are mainstreamed with little support. Many more students are diagnosed with difficulties (a good thing) but then given minimal support. The class teacher is expected to cater for all of these children with differentiated learning plans, teaching methods etc. The paperwork is immense.

Also while class ratios may be 'historically low', students don't sit rigidly in desks, there is no corporal punishment (thank god) and children and parents would complain pretty damn quick (and rightly so) if you tried to run lessons in the manner they were run in the past when ratios were bigger.

All true, but just because students weren't diagnosed in the past doesn't mean they didn't exist,they were hardly all angels. Corporal punishment isn't the silver bullet your making it out to be, say reintroduced tomorrow I don't think students would magically fall into line but the perhaps there are greater social problems at play now.

Rodrigues

donegal11 wrote: »

All true, but just because students weren't diagnosed in the past doesn't mean they didn't exist,they were hardly all angels. Corporal punishment isn't the silver bullet your making it out to be, say reintroduced tomorrow I don't think students would magically fall into line but the perhaps there are greater social problems at play now.

Was corporal punishment used 15/20 years ago??? If so, certainly not in the school I worked in. Nor for that matter in the school I attended as a child in the 70's and 80's. Not even the threat of it. The school I worked in was run from a combination of an apartment, a semi-d and a bungalow as there was simply no building to accommodate it at the time. The kids were practically sitting on each other's knees there was so little space and my memory is of about 40 to a class. It's now a well established school with a fantastic building and facilities.

I'm quite sure there are new challenges in primary teaching - the paperwork sounds like a headwrecker, and children with severe disabilities in a mainstream class sounds nigh on impossible to cope with. Still not enough to put me off though.

Maybe I should go and see a shrink ;-)

byhookorbycrook

Pupil teacher ratios sound low , as the DES counts admin principals ,teachers in special schools and special ed and EAL teachers to make it appear lower. Reality on the ground is much different , as ascertained by INTO and other unions .

chippers

Don't forget advancements in technology and how it has completely changed how teachers teach and how students learn.

whiteandlight

Rodrigues wrote: »

Was corporal punishment used 15/20 years ago??? If so, certainly not in the school I worked in. Nor for that matter in the school I attended as a child in the 70's and 80's. Not even the threat of it. The school I worked in was run from a combination of an apartment, a semi-d and a bungalow as there was simply no building to accommodate it at the time. The kids were practically sitting on each other's knees there was so little space and my memory is of about 40 to a class. It's now a well established school with a fantastic building and facilities.

I'm quite sure there are new challenges in primary teaching - the paperwork sounds like a headwrecker, and children with severe disabilities in a mainstream class sounds nigh on impossible to cope with. Still not enough to put me off though.

Maybe I should go and see a shrink ;-)

Sorry I only mentioned corporal punishment as a poster had mentioned "historical"!
Having said that I'm pretty sure there was still some corporal punishment going on in the 80s, I have an acquaintance in school in the 80s who was whacked with a ruler for mistakes.

In relation to class sizes, In 2012/2013 almost a quarter of primary school children were in classes of 30+. There were three schools with classes of over 40. Class sizes are still huge, particularly in the commuter belt around Dublin. On the other side of the equation you do have tiny classes (3 students in Inishturk Primary School) in some schools so the average of 24.7 per class seems reasonable without looking deeper. The EU average is 20.
Media Link (data can be gleaned from OECD reports too)

evolving_doors

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Sorry I only mentioned corporal punishment as a poster had mentioned "historical"!
Having said that I'm pretty sure there was still some corporal punishment going on in the 80s, I have an acquaintance in school in the 80s who was whacked with a ruler for mistakes.

In relation to class sizes, In 2012/2013 almost a quarter of primary school children were in classes of 30+. There were three schools with classes of over 40. Class sizes are still huge, particularly in the commuter belt around Dublin. On the other side of the equation you do have tiny classes (3 students in Inishturk Primary School) in some schools so the average of 24.7 per class seems reasonable without looking deeper. The EU average is 20.
Media Link (data can be gleaned from OECD reports too)

Corpral punishment was 'decomissioned' in 1982... Although I got a bit before and after it..not much but the threat of it was enough to ensure 'absolute conformity'.

Also in terms of PTR from what I understand resource teaching is included in the figures. (I'm open to correction)..So a school of say 300 students and 10 teachers PTR is 30:1 ... put in 2 resource teachers and the PTR becomes 25:1 .

Rodrigues

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Sorry I only mentioned corporal punishment as a poster had mentioned "historical"!
Having said that I'm pretty sure there was still some corporal punishment going on in the 80s, I have an acquaintance in school in the 80s who was whacked with a ruler for mistakes.

In relation to class sizes, In 2012/2013 almost a quarter of primary school children were in classes of 30+. There were three schools with classes of over 40. Class sizes are still huge, particularly in the commuter belt around Dublin. On the other side of the equation you do have tiny classes (3 students in Inishturk Primary School) in some schools so the average of 24.7 per class seems reasonable without looking deeper. The EU average is 20.
Media Link (data can be gleaned from OECD reports too)

Thanks for the link. Re corporal punishment, I know that it still existed, but I had thought only in very very few schools. In secondary, I knew pupils from at least 10 schools and none of them had cp. I certainly don't remember it being a generally accepted method of discipline.

Rodrigues

chippers wrote: »

Don't forget advancements in technology and how it has completely changed how teachers teach and how students learn.

How so?

chippers

Rodrigues wrote: »

How so?

For example a friend of mine gives classes using ipads. I know that's an extreme and not common place but that's the way things are moving. Interactive whiteboards / uploading homeworks etc. I'm sure a lot of teachers here will have used moodle or other similar software

opticalillusion

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Sorry I only mentioned corporal punishment as a poster had mentioned "historical"!
Having said that I'm pretty sure there was still some corporal punishment going on in the 80s, I have an acquaintance in school in the 80s who was whacked with a ruler for mistakes.

I went to school in the 90s, one teacher slapped us and we got the ruler across the hand. I thought that was normal? Another teacher was sacked for catching a kid by the back of the head and smacking his head off the desk - she broke his nose.