LEAF battery afterlife

September1

When I got LEAF few years ago I was pretty skeptical about second use for batteries and Nissan promises - but they seem to deliver at least in Japan

http://www.sumitomocorp.co.jp/english/news/detail/id=27673

I wonder how profitable this thing is and I cannot notice how they put A/C units there... ;-D

Anyway pics from here (http://www.4r-energy.com/press/doc/140207_release.pdf) seem to show 12 batteries per container and thus with two containers and claimed 400kWh it would seem that afterlife battery is 16.6kWh. If we multiply it by number of LEAFs sold it would seem that soon 1.66tWh of storage capacity would be available - about 20-25 days of power for Ireland (according to 2013 Eirgrid data).

PDF not found ?

Yes Nissan had always intended the batteries to have a 2nd life but they should be replaced at 80% remaining capacity not 70 if the customer intends.

As ranges get greater then 70% would still most likely be enough.

The ESB are looking into using spent ev batteries, however as Nissan stand now, the Leaf battery will only be "repaired" and not replaced, keeping the capacity hovering around a useless 70%.

It's only if you rent out the battery will they replace, again, only at 70%.

people should have the option of purchasing a brand new battery if they wish while getting money for the old one.

Nissan can and I'm sure will still sell old cells removed from repaired packs.

September1

Firstly proper link for PDF:
http://www.4r-energy.com/press/doc/140207_release.pdf

Let's think what Nissan is up to. How much is worth battery? Assuming that only 10kW is usable (50% of loss) and 2000 Euro cost of auxiliary equipement to convert from AC to DC and back we can look at similar APC solution:
http://shop.mcidiventi.co.uk/APC-SL10KHB1-Silcon-10kW-400V-UPS-w-1-BPI.html
Which would suggest that battery would be worth about 10000 Euro alone. Of course that is imaginary number, as APC sells support, warranties and other stuff that add value. Let's assume that is max what it could be worth.

What would be minimal value? According to those guys 1kWh is 500$ those days:
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/11/08/li-ion-battery-prices-headed--down-180-kwh
Which translates to 366 Euro or 444 Euro after adding VAT. 10 kWh battery would be worth 4.440 Euro and 15kWh would 6660 Euro.

Coming back to 2000 Euro worth of AC to DC and back let's calculate value of such battery in domestic use. Difference between night and day rate is 10c but with losses in charging and dicharding it would be closer to 8c. 10kwh battery would save 80c per day and 15kWh 120c per day which means E292 or E438 per year - banks those days pay about 1% so to get this kind of return system would have to cost 29200 or 43800. To get 5% return on investment cost of system would be 5840 or 8760 which after deducting 2000 Euro would suggest that battery is worth 3840 at 10kwh and 6760 at 15kwh.

Considering that second hand LEAFs in UK are reaching 10.000E those days it would seems that is depreciation would keep pace soon off-the-grid enthusiasts would start purchasing them.

HandsomeDan

I want a Renault Twizy, and I don't know why

BMJD

HandsomeDan wrote: »

I want a Renault Twizy, and I don't know why

I'd love one as well, just as a fancy moped really. The only one on carzone is 10k though. There are a few on Pistoheads for around 5k stg

air

Does viable technology exist to economically recover the lithium from the packs at full end of life?

September1

air wrote: »

Does viable technology exist to economically recover the lithium from the packs at full end of life?

No, AFAIK lithium is too cheap and abundant to bother with recovery at this time.

air

I did a bit of googling and found a company in Canada that does it actually.

They had a fire in 2009 by the looks of it, seems it's a big issue for recyclers worldwide!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfQwYKqmfk4

Hopefully they will at least be stockpiled until it becomes economically viable

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

I want a Renault Twizy, and I don't know why

Twizy is supposed to be a mad yoke to drive, real fun.

Can get them for 4500 uk pounds but have to rent battery.

When i can get one for 2000 Euro's I'lll gladly pay 50 a month for a bit of fun.

positron

What ever happened to the Zoe? Read somewhere that they sold over 10,000 Zoe's in Europe, but it's still not available here in Ireland, is it?

ironclaw

I know I asked on a previous thread, but out of sheer interest, was there ever a Tesla registered in Ireland? And on that note, what type of VRT would you be liable for? Probably the only electric car I would drive.

No VRT on a full battery electric car, VRT is applicable to range extenders such as the BMW I3 with optional range extender.

The I3 with Rex starts at 40,000 Euro's.

A Nissan Leaf costs 25,500 for the SV trim, so who in their right mind would pay an extra 15,000 Euro's for a car that's less practical than a Leaf with a range extender you'll use maybe 2 times a year ? Granted the I3 would be a lot faster 0-100 kph.

Though admittedly, there are 0 fast chargers capable of charging an I3 yet. Though someone correct me if I'm wrong.

positron

positron wrote: »

What ever happened to the Zoe? Read somewhere that they sold over 10,000 Zoe's in Europe, but it's still not available here in Ireland, is it?

I would imagine Zoe is not available due to the battery lease, and Nissan Ireland probably can't negotiate with Renault to sell the car with the battery like they did the Fluence.

The Fluence has been discontinued, due to the failure of the battery swap company called Better place. The Fluence had no fast charger capability.

Zoe is slow and I doubt I could cope with a 14 second 0-100 kph, though it does have a brilliant on board charger 3-44 kw capable. Meaning it can charge in a minimum of 1 hour from completely dead from all the non fast ESB chargers.

The down side though is there are 0 44kw ac chargers yet either.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

A Nissan Leaf costs 25,500 for the SV trim,

Mistake, costs 23,990 for the SV.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

No VRT on a full battery electric car, VRT is applicable to range extenders such as the BMW I3 with optional range extender.

The I3 with Rex starts at 40,000 Euro's.

A Nissan Leaf costs 25,500 for the SV trim, so who in their right mind would pay an extra 15,000 Euro's for a car that's less practical than a Leaf with a range extender you'll use maybe 2 times a year ? Granted the I3 would be a lot faster 0-100 kph.

Though admittedly, there are 0 fast chargers capable of charging an I3 yet. Though someone correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong:
1. VRT is discount is capped at E5000
2. I think most BMW models have more reasonable alternatives by other makers, that is totally not what premium brands are about. Most people choose BMW over Nissan not because it is cheaper car.

September1

September1 wrote: »

You are wrong:
1. VRT is discount is capped at E5000
2. I think most BMW models have more reasonable alternatives by other makers, that is totally not what premium brands are about. Most people choose BMW over Nissan not because it is cheaper car.

1 You are correct, however in 2011 electrics had 0 vrt applied, I didn't realise they changed this !

2 Yes I know people buy BMW because of the Badge and some genuinely because they like BMW.

I would have said the range extender was a ridiculous option to spend 5 k on until I realised that there are 0 fast chargers capable of charging it, that won't last too long. BMW should have made an CHAdeMo adapter available like tesla did.

BMW I3 options are insanely expensive looking at the German site, no Irish prices on BMW.ie.

Eddiemccourt

Any update on Leaf battery replacement in 2000.
Surely some bright young enthusiast must have taken a chance & set up a business ?

air

There is a business in the Netherlands doing it, they are kept very busy.
They've put 40kWh packs from crashed Leafs onto older Leaf 24s, a straight swap apparently with just some CAN bus translation required to interface it to the L24.

biko

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