Open drive for business - If they crash..

NeptunesMoon

business has picked up a little and I'm now having a lad driving for me in a van that I own thats insured on a fleet policy which has open drive. he only works a few days a week and invoices me as a contractor instead of an employee at the time being. this is new to me but Im afraid what would happen if he had a crash or did something to the car, it would really set me back and I dont think its right that id be footing the bill for a mistake thats down to his driving. if anything was to happen, it will be my premium going up I'd assume. would he have any responsibility and is there any systems in place where my premium wouldnt be effected and the burden would be on him?

Id a problem before too where someone drove my car with the oil light on, he checked the oil which seemed ok but kept driving it without even telling me the light was on and it busted the engine and cost me 600 to rpelace which i still havent got off him :mad: :mad: if something like this was to happen while someone is doing contract work, how can i have them be responsible???

I know im taking a risk here but you have to take rissks in business to get anywhere but Im just afraid if anything happens ill be in big trouble with repair costs or higher premium :eek:

OldmanMondeo

If your that worried, don't let him drive the car.

corktina

Isn't this what you have the Insurance for? Tell him get his own insurance if he's self-employed contractor

king_of_inismac

corktina wrote: »

Isn't this what you have the Insurance for? Tell him get his own insurance if he's self-employed contractor

If he's a employee, then you should be paying insurance (and all other benefits).

If hes a contractor, he should be paying for his own transport/insurance (but maybe charging you more for his work).

If I get a contract carpenter to fix my roof, I don't give him my van or pay his insurance for him. Its priced into my quote.

NeptunesMoon

cheers for the replies, this is tricky as I said im just starting to get busier and for the mean time - he doesn't have his own van and i dont have enough business for him to get his own van so hes using mine for now and driving under my insurance. he's charging me what an emloyee would expect to get, but just done on a contractor basis due to the fact hes only supplying the labour and im supplying the work, van and everything else... just afriad if anything were to happen i dont want my premium to shoot up to a level I cant afford and then as well what if he drives the van with the oil light on without telling me and ends up busting the engine, can he just walk away and im left without a worker and down 1-2k for repairs?

veetwin

Why not put him down as a named driver on the insurance policy. Then all doubt is removed.

corkgsxr

:rolleyes:

veetwin wrote: »

Why not put him down as a named driver on the insurance policy. Then all doubt is removed.

How its still his policy still his risk.


Basically you cant guarantee anything you just have to gauge if you want to trust him or not.

veetwin

Sorry I misread the OP. Yeah in that case it's down to an issue of trust. If you think he is likely to have an accident then don't give him the van.

(No need for the rolling eyes corkgsxr!)

oldyouth

Your vehicle, your authorised driver and your insurance policy if he causes an accident. As for the example of driving the vehicle when warning lights come on, mechanical derangement is not covered by insurance

corkgsxr

veetwin wrote: »

Sorry I misread the OP. Yeah in that case it's down to an issue of trust. If you think he is likely to have an accident then don't give him the van.

(No need for the rolling eyes corkgsxr!)

I didnt add rolleyes. I donno

NeptunesMoon

cheers for the replies. yeah I know the mechanical thing with the lights wouldn't be covered, but this is more just a "what if" if the driver does something stupid and I'm left to foot the bill.

So it's basically tough **** if he crashes? He could be texting friends while driving and go into the back of a 141 and I'd be left with the bill or a much higher premium while he gets off scott free? That can't be fair

any suggestions on what i could do while still keeping the worker, paying him the same price but him having the same responsibilities as if it was his own vehicle and insurance, just without having to pay for the insurance or the vehicle?

Odyssey 2005

Op,
Why not take this guy on as a part time employee. He could still sign on(for the time hes not working) if in fact he is already on the dole. Your insurance problem would be solved as he is an employee. This would of course mean you would have to pay employers prsi etc.and he would have to pay his dues also.
Maybe not what you want to hear but your arse would be covered from every angle,except the "driving with warning lights on". Thats cop on, and cant be thought to anybody.
Either war if anybody has a tip in your van and is at fault your premium will increase.

RustyNut

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

cheers for the replies. yeah I know the mechanical thing with the lights wouldn't be covered, but this is more just a "what if" if the driver does something stupid and I'm left to foot the bill.

So it's basically tough **** if he crashes? He could be texting friends while driving and go into the back of a 141 and I'd be left with the bill or a much higher premium while he gets off scott free? That can't be fair

any suggestions on what i could do while still keeping the worker, paying him the same price but him having the same responsibilities as if it was his own vehicle and insurance, just without having to pay for the insurance or the vehicle?

Insurance is a cost of doing business.

NeptunesMoon

cheers again. I dont really understand how the insurance problem would be solved if hes an employee? it would be more cost to me if he was an employee and i had to pay him a wage rather than just give him work on a per hour basis each week that he invoices me for? Surely nothing would change if he had a crash in the car whether he was an employee or contracotr? i accept insurance is a cost of doing business but i just dont want to end up on my arse because of his mistake..:o:o

slimjimmc

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

cheers again. I dont really understand how the insurance problem would be solved if hes an employee? it would be more cost to me if he was an employee and i had to pay him a wage rather than just give him work on a per hour basis each week that he invoices me for? Surely nothing would change if he had a crash in the car whether he was an employee or contracotr? i accept insurance is a cost of doing business but i just dont want to end up on my arse because of his mistake..:o:o

Being an employee wouldn't change anything. It's still your policy and it's your premium that rises if there's a claim. I don't think there's anyway to have your cake and eat it. If you allow him to drive your on policy you must accept the risks. If you can't accept that risk don't allow him to drive. Imo, the only other way is for him to provide his own van and insurance.

Alan Shore

You need to check you motor policy.

Does it cover contractors driving your vehicles if not then if he crashs you won't be able to claim on your insurance and will be even more out of pocket.

It appears that this guy is an employee because a contractor would have his own insurance and if they had a crash it's their insurance that gets hit not yours.

NeptunesMoon

cheers for that.

No an employee is only an employee if they are registered as an employee, he does a few hours work and invoices me, whether he has insurance or not doesn't matter, i have open drive insurance and hes using my vehicle which covers anyone between 25 and 70 yo.

oldyouth

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

So it's basically tough **** if he crashes? He could be texting friends while driving and go into the back of a 141 and I'd be left with the bill or a much higher premium while he gets off scott free? That can't be fair

I really don't understand why you are thinking like this. It is a legal requirement to have insurance to drive a vehicle on a public road. By letting him drive your vehicle under an open drive policy, you are effectively saying "here, drive my vehicle and my insurance will take care of your obligations". Why do you think it could work any other way? You put your policy/premiums on the line when you let ANY driver use the open drive facility

slimjimmc

oldyouth wrote: »

I really don't understand why you are thinking like this. It is a legal requirement to have insurance to drive a vehicle on a public road. By letting him drive your vehicle under an open drive policy, you are effectively saying "here, drive my vehicle and my insurance will take care of your obligations". Why do you think it could work any other way? You put your policy/premiums on the line when you let ANY driver use the open drive facility

I was thinking the same as you oldyouth. Don't forget the OP is getting a business benefit by hiring a contractor and putting him on his insurance. You can be fairly sure if the contractor was providing their own van and policy the OP would be paying a lot more than at present for his services (hence my cake analogy previously).

It's a gamble between saving money now with the risk of a hike later or spend money now to eliminate that risk.

NeptunesMoon

cheers lads, unless I do a "mini franchise" where he buys into it for €500 and I give him work and if there's any claims he loses the €500 and needs to pay another €500 for any more work hahahahah :DD:D

this is the other situation i described: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056277819

Stavros Murphy

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

cheers for the replies, this is tricky as I said im just starting to get busier and for the mean time - he doesn't have his own van and i dont have enough business for him to get his own van so hes using mine for now and driving under my insurance. he's charging me what an emloyee would expect to get, but just done on a contractor basis due to the fact hes only supplying the labour and im supplying the work, van and everything else... just afriad if anything were to happen i dont want my premium to shoot up to a level I cant afford and then as well what if he drives the van with the oil light on without telling me and ends up busting the engine, can he just walk away and im left without a worker and down 1-2k for repairs?

There's two issue - 1. his tax status is likely to be dodgy, Revenue will take a dim view of his "contractor" status in that set-up and

2. if he is a "contractor" and not an employee, your insurance company might have issues with his status as an insured driver, the policy being commercial for own-goods/ hire/reward and covering employees driving. Unless it is a fully "open" policy for any driver. That usually doesn't apply though for business use. Best policy is to ring the insurance company and be totally honest and open.

As for who pays in an accident - that's you. Joys of being a "boss". You can't have your cake and eat it.

Del2005

Insurance you can't do anything about, if he crashes your van it'll cost you. But he won't get away without issue as he'll have to declare the crash when he's applying for insurance in his own name.

To make sure he doesn't wreck your van do up a daily inspection checklist and make sure he fills it in. Also since its your van I assume you keep it on your own property, do the checks yourself every week to verify he's doing the checks.

NeptunesMoon

Good idea RE the inspection list. Do you reckon he should pay if something like in the linked thread happens where it's totally his negligence that the engine goes after he drives with the oil light on without so much a phone call to me?

regards insurance and tax, he does his own tax affairs so its out of my hands hes doing it legit and my policy is fleet and has no mention of contractor/employee from what i see and it also covers hire and reward

cheers

Del2005

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

Good idea RE the inspection list. Do you reckon he should pay if something like in the linked thread happens where it's totally his negligence that the engine goes after he drives with the oil light on without so much a phone call to me?

regards insurance and tax, he does his own tax affairs so its out of my hands hes doing it legit and my policy is fleet and has no mention of contractor/employee from what i see and it also covers hire and reward

cheers

Whenever I've been loaned something I always assumed it was on a you break it you fix it basis. But if he's doing daily checks with a log being kept it shouldn't be an issue, but do your own random daily checks to be sure. You need to have this discussion with him though to make sure everything is clear in case something happens.

NeptunesMoon

Im the same and would think if a warning light came on that anyone with a full drivers license should know about given that they have a full dfivers liense and the problem wasnt reported or attempted to be reported when there was another 2 hour drive to get back to the depot and the engine went kaput itd be no question its down to my negligence?!?!

its not even about giving the responsibility of doing daily checks, jsut to report something as soon as something unusual happens such as a warning light coming on.

blackwhite

NeptunesMoon wrote: »

cheers for that.

No an employee is only an employee if they are registered as an employee, he does a few hours work and invoices me, whether he has insurance or not doesn't matter, i have open drive insurance and hes using my vehicle which covers anyone between 25 and 70 yo.

A bit OT, but you'd want to be very careful with that logic - there are various tests that are applied to determine whether someone is an employee under the taxation acts.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/code-of-practice-on-employment-status.pdf

If you are supplying all of the equipment, and all he has to do is turn up and do what you tell him then Revenue will usually take the view that he's an employee - whether you have him registered as one or not - and that you should have been collecting his income tax at source, and also paying employers PRSI. Can sometimes be a point that people get caught on during Revenue inspections.
You should really speak to your accountant on this.

visual

The logic applied though the post seems odd

Obviously the guy is being employed on contract because its cheaper and no benefits in comparison to an employee.

Then seeking to pass insurance liability off on to this guy who I have the impression is stuck for work and going self employed just to earn a crust.

And finally making the guy responsible for the van.

To me it appears that OP isnt of the right mind set to be employing anyone. As still wanting cake and while eating it.

If the 'contractor' was truly a contractor he would have his own van and be charging alot more for his services.

I was in a similar situation years ago with a small business. Do I let someone else drive my pride and joy or hire someone with their own van. I paid for a guy with van who charged more. it was an acceptable trade off for me.

NeptunesMoon

cheers for the replies again. as i said this is just a small business and im not making a whole lot more than him on the jobs hes doing so obviously i want to minimise my liability if he causes an accident of some sort. ive spoken to my accountant about it and he doesnt yet qualify as an employee due to the low amount of work i have for him. cheers