The value of Yang Style Tai Chi Chaun as a martial art

Tuisceanch

Having coming across this article on the lineage and history of Yang Style Tai Chi Chaun I was wondering what seasoned practitioners of this style might make of the assertions make within the article. Since I am only a newbie to Tai Chi Chaun with little if no martial ability I would not feel qualified to comment but I would be interested to hear the insights of those who are qualified to talk about the subject.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=432

Tuisceanch

Just for clarity I will quote the passage I'm referring too..

' Many martial artists (particularly non-Yang stylist) claim that the New Yang Style is useless martially, and that Yang Lu Chan purposely made it so. This claim is completely without basis as even a quick review of Chinese martial history and contemporary masters shows. Yang Lu Chan's grandson, Yang Chen-fu never studied the older Mi Chuan form, yet was well known as a boxer. Many of Chen-fu's students, notably Chen Wei-ming and Cheng Man-Ch'ing, are taiji legends today..'

Another article relating to the Yang Style might also be of interest
http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.ie/2013/11/yang-style-taijiquan-expansive-way-of.html

I hope these articles are of interest to some people and that no controversial intent is inferred. I have a genuine interest in Tai Chi Chaun and have met some excellent practitioners of the art in Ireland but I'm curious as to the extent and focus of the art in Ireland.

smacl

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Having coming across this article on the lineage and history of Yang Style Tai Chi Chaun I was wondering what seasoned practitioners of this style might make of the assertions make within the article.

I'm Wudang / Dan Docherty style myself, but my 2c worth is as follows;

A huge amount comes down to the instructor and how they teach, rather than the style. For effective martial tai chi in Dublin, Niall Keane is without a doubt the first person you should visit. Yang style is popular, but most people tend to practice for health over here rather than as a practical fighting style. There could be well be some tai chi lads in the san shou open tomorrow, which could be worth a visit. I know some of Niall's lads have done very well at past events.

Its been about 10 years since I've taken part in tai chi competitively myself, but have taken part in three European opens getting into the medals in two, and many other international events. Success is determined in my opinion primarily by good coaches pushing hard working competitive teams right to the limits of their ability, rather than nuances in style. AFAIK, there wasn't any other competitive tai chi clubs from Ireland at European level when I was competing, though this could well have changed with the introduction of tui shou / push hands in the ICBA events. If you're interested in the martial aspects of tai chi, I'd encourage you to compete, as it is the only way of gauging your comparative abilities. I'd be very dubious of any style that claims martial efficacy that doesn't take part in open competition.

Tuisceanch

Thanks for the reply. I think I should probably explain a little about the intent of my question as I have gotten to know Niall Keane in the last couple of months and so am not unfamiliar with his work.

Basically I learned The Beijing Short Form http://www.beginnerstaichi.com/yang-short-form.html whilst I was living in the UK around about the early '00s'. I also starting learning the Yang Style Long form and some Yang style sword. We also learned a number of Qi Gong sets including 8 pieces of silk brocade and I was briefly introduced to some Nei Gung exercises. Obviously Tui Shou was an important part of the training. I was never an advanced student and so I never received the intensive training of the more advanced students and when I left the UK to live in the Netherlands my Tai Chi training was put on hold for quite a number of years. The school I trained with is http://taichilife.com/. The chief instructor of that school was a very experienced martial artist and I believe he made a comeback recently in http://www.wakoweb.com/en/ where he was a medal winner. So I agree with you that it is not so much a question of style but rather the quality of the teaching which is important and also the focus and intent of the student. I think with that school that if the students wanted to train in practical self defense and even competitive fighting then he had the ability to train them up. I never reached a stage where I even considered that possibility being more obsessed with learning hand form and developing flexibility.

It is only recently having returned to Ireland that I decided to retrain in Tai Chi. I began by teaching myself from DVDs and books and I researched the web for Teachers in Dublin. My focus was of course Yang Style but since I had heard of Dan Doherty when I lived in London I had at the back of my mind that I needed to understand the fighting capability of Tai Chi to really begin to understand this art. The initial class I found did not have any senior students and Tui Shou training was not really on offer at beginning level so I didn't feel I could progress much in that class. A year later I decided again to take the plunge and I began training Yang style with an excellent chinese woman but I concentrated only on learning the Yang 40 form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FowwENJg1xU. I also decided at this point to also train with Wudang Sanhou in the person of Niall Keane. I have enjoyed both training regimes immensely but I must admit that training in applications and working on conditioning and training to spar using Tai Chi Chaun techniques has accelerated and enhanced my understandings of the forms I had previously learned as well as developing in me a confidence in the self defense effectiveness of this art.

However when I look across the sea now I see that my old school initiated a regular free pushing hands morning so that practitioners from all styles can test the skills and I wonder why this is not happening here regardless of whether a particular style is focused on health because surely Tui Shou is fundamental to all styles. I also personally like performing the Yang Style forms and I suppose I was just wondering if there were any other Yang style practitioners out there who had a similar approach to me. http://taichilife.com/london-free-open-pushing-hands-session/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyE6LZ6kGEA&list=PLD25E9A467522E0C4

Sorry for the long winded response but I don't want people to feel I'm being disingenuous with my question as it could be perceived as provocative and disrespectful to people who are far more experienced than me. Basically I'm just curious to know what sort of Tai CHi community exists out there.

smacl

Tuisceanch wrote: »

However when I look across the sea now I see that my old school initiated a regular free pushing hands morning so that practitioners from all styles can test the skills and I wonder why this is not happening here regardless of whether a particular style is focused on health because surely Tui Shou is fundamental to all styles. I also personally like performing the Yang Style forms and I suppose I was just wondering if there were any other Yang style practitioners out there who had a similar approach to me. http://taichilife.com/london-free-open-pushing-hands-session/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyE6LZ6kGEA&list=PLD25E9A467522E0C4

I tried setting up open free push hands sessions in Dublin some years ago, having really enjoyed the format in the past in France. There wasn't any interest at the time, but things may well have moved on from then. At the time, I don't think there were that many people practising pushing hands. I noticed the London sessions on Facebook, and they seem pretty good. Let me know if you get anything like this organised as I'd definitely be up for it.

No idea what schools there are that teach Yang style as a martial art in Dublin. Paul Moran would be worth contacting. I've searched in the past for other tai chi schools with a martial bias, but not found much. Plenty of places teaching forms and qigong, but not much sign of free push hands practice.

radar_marglar

Hiya , just saw this while browsing etc. new enough to martial arts myself , i did tai chi chuan for over half a year and felt many of its benefits. but the "martial" part of it wasnt as much as i wanted. have since been doing wing-tsun for the same time or more and its much much better. i still ove and respect tai chi chuan but i think it may be hard to find anyone in ireland to teach it as the potent form of self defense that it is. shame!.

Niall Keane

radar_marglar wrote: »

Hiya , just saw this while browsing etc. new enough to martial arts myself , i did tai chi chuan for over half a year and felt many of its benefits. but the "martial" part of it wasn't as much as i wanted. have since been doing wing-tsun for the same time or more and its much much better. i still ove and respect tai chi chuan but i think it may be hard to find anyone in ireland to teach it as the potent form of self defense that it is. shame!.

Perhaps as the above discussion points out, you should have "done" tai chi chuan with a competent instructor? Like smacl says, I also don't believe the "brand" matters as much as the instructor be it Tai Chi Chuan, Wing-Tsun etc.

There are plenty of youtube videos of ridiculous applications and 5 combo wonders to a static opponent with his arm held out (supposedly a punch) or worse still displaying lethal eye-gouges and kicks to the balls as fight enders for both arts.

As a rule for those seeking instruction I'd say say two things:

1. 99% of all martial arts classes are worthless for martial arts, they may be good social or fitness clubs.... maybe? . (even where coaches know how, in a similar way to "hardcore" fitness instructors, they may not impart proper training incase they scare off the clients. and bread and butter clients tend to be somewhat fantasists, looking for magic not hard work. Hence most "fighter gyms" have a public class and a fighter class, or at the very least a bag area or section beginners are condemned to, coached by "assistants" unless they show promise. Am I wrong?) Tip: If you are in a big gym, but one with good fighters, display your seriousness with regular training and push yourself, talk to the coach and other fighters, make yourself known!

2. Clubs that engage in combat sports tend to be in a word "better". Their training is honest and constantly evolving within its own framework, and based on experience not fantasy! And no! training kung fu, say, and fighting sanshou, does not preclude one from using "deadly" techniques on da stretz, if anything is makes their use more effective. Who has the better chance of hitting the bullseye? the lad who plays darts all day, or the fantasist who points with real concentration and has never thrown a dart? And remember most of the famous kung fu styles became famous for being successful at challenge matches i.e. combat sports of the day. Yang Lu Chan or Yang the Invincible, the founder of Yang Style TCC, the undefeated champion of Beijing was undefeated on a Lei Tai not at tiddlywinks or even performing a dance / form to other inept "martial artists" (yet what do 99% of so called tai chi teachers advertise?) Tip: if training a technique, (not initial learning phase but training with resistance) and you are acting as the opponent, imagine the lad doing the technique is using it to get past you to hurt your girlfriend, wife, child etc. Could he? If your life depended on it, how difficult is it to counter what he is doing? In fact does training include the flow of counters and recovery with serious resistance? See fighting is a bit different to soccer, when the opponent is hit, generally he doesn't fake a fall and call for a free kick! Its amazing how many self-defence classes miss that point!

Tuisceanch

radar_marglar wrote: »

Hiya , just saw this while browsing etc. new enough to martial arts myself , i did tai chi chuan for over half a year and felt many of its benefits. but the "martial" part of it wasnt as much as i wanted. have since been doing wing-tsun for the same time or more and its much much better. i still ove and respect tai chi chuan but i think it may be hard to find anyone in ireland to teach it as the potent form of self defense that it is. shame!.

I hope you are enjoying your wing-tsun. I was at Tai Chi Caledonia recently and thoroughly enjoyed immersing myself in a tai chi environment and learning from different practitioners. In Dublin I train with Niall Keane and through his training which emphasizes martial application I'm gaining a deeper understanding of Tai Chi. Niall teaches at different levels given your interest and condition and so if you wanted to train Sanshou using Tai Chi techniques then he most definitely is your man. I would encourage you to contact him if you want to reignite your interest in Tai Chi as it would be a shame to let it go.

Niall Keane

A decent list of effective TCC available:

http://fighters-journey.blogspot.ie/2014/07/be-weary-when-you-see-tai-chi-combat-or.html