one creamery.

mf240

well what do ye think if we had just one creamery for the whole country.

Probably never happen but in theory what do ye think would it be good or bad.

bbam

mf240 wrote: »

well what do ye think if we had just one creamery for the whole country.

Probably never happen but in theory what do ye think would it be good or bad.

Surely a monopoly in any business is a bad thing..

Sure if it was a traditional co-operative where there are no public share holders to be pandered to..
But the minute there are public share holders then the board's sole job is to maximise returns to the public shareholders - whatever it takes !

Brown Podzol

mf240 wrote: »

well what do ye think if we had just one creamery for the whole country.

Probably never happen but in theory what do ye think would it be good or bad.

Probably not one, but less than,is it the 17 we have now. 17 pillars of management, an army of employees all on what I can see are defined benefit pensions all paid for out of the litre of milk. The purchasers of dairy product must be delighted, playing one off against the other. Realistically I think three would be about right.

Farmer Ed

Page 22 of this weeks IFJ a Lisaviard supplier was paid €491 per cow more than a supplier of our counrtys largest co op. I'm not talking about PLC's as that's another issue with shares and what not. Yes of course you would think big shoud be better but in practice a 100 cow Lisaviard supplier was paid €49100 more for their milk that a 100 cow Dairygold supplier over the last 10 years.
Also if you take the trouble of going trough co op accounts (easy to find on line) and you dived the wage bill by the amount of workers. You will find that the highest paid co op workers in Ireland are in Dairygold. (Please dont get me wrong here I am not blaming the guy driving the fork lift. We know he's not well paid) The highest paid co op workers in the world are in NZ and a third of dairy farmers there are in danger of losing their farms to the banks.
I also know that one month in 2009 Botherbue with only 80 suppliers and not even on the IFJ list were
paying 4 cent/l more than Dairygold.

Farmer Ed

bbam wrote: »

Surely a monopoly in any business is a bad thing..

Sure if it was a traditional co-operative where there are no public share holders to be pandered to..
But the minute there are public share holders then the board's sole job is to maximise returns to the public shareholders - whatever it takes !

In theory you are right about the boards job. In practice a lot of board members will only do what ever it takes to try and hold on to their job.

keep going

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Page 22 of this weeks IFJ a Lisaviard supplier was paid €491 per cow more than a supplier of our counrtys largest co op. I'm not talking about PLC's as that's another issue with shares and what not. Yes of course you would think big shoud be better but in practice a 100 cow Lisaviard supplier was paid €49100 more for their milk that a 100 cow Dairygold supplier over the last 10 years.
Also if you take the trouble of going trough co op accounts (easy to find on line) and you dived the wage bill by the amount of workers. You will find that the highest paid co op workers in Ireland are in Dairygold. (Please dont get me wrong here I am not blaming the guy driving the fork lift. We know he's not well paid) The highest paid co op workers in the world are in NZ and a third of dairy farmers there are in danger of losing their farms to the banks.
I also know that one month in 2009 Botherbue with only 80 suppliers and not even on the IFJ list were
paying 4 cent/l more than Dairygold.

So according to that logic smaller coops are better than bigger coops.

Milked out

What would happen to botherbue if craft pulled out?? A small co op with one main customer isn't exactly a guaranteed recipe for success either

alps

One creamery probably not a good thing, but a system that would allow farmers to move to the better paying, more efficient processors is important for producers. What is disappointing is the movement by "the industry" to get suppliers to sign up to contracts that will completely inhibit the possibility of switching to a better processor. Of course the industry is moving go protect itself...all those CEO's all those boards, all those defined benefit pensions....farmers need to move to protect themselves too.
Be careful about the contracts you sign up to...and the share up schemes that have no exit mechanism, and the overall cost of same, especially if it has to be paid for out if after tax money.
Hopefully the glanbia move will put a stop to the preservation of the old boys club.

alps

One creamery probably not a good thing, but a system that would allow farmers to move to the better paying, more efficient processors is important for producers. What is disappointing is the movement by "the industry" to get suppliers to sign up to contracts that will completely inhibit the possibility of switching to a better processor. Of course the industry is moving go protect itself...all those CEO's all those boards, all those defined benefit pensions....farmers need to move to protect themselves too.
Be careful about the contracts you sign up to...and the share up schemes that have no exit mechanism, and the overall cost of same, especially if it has to be paid for out if after tax money.
Hopefully the glanbia move will put a stop to the preservation of the old boys club.

alps

One creamery probably not a good thing, but a system that would allow farmers to move to the better paying, more efficient processors is important for producers. What is disappointing is the movement by "the industry" to get suppliers to sign up to contracts that will completely inhibit the possibility of switching to a better processor. Of course the industry is moving go protect itself...all those CEO's all those boards, all those defined benefit pensions....farmers need to move to protect themselves too.
Be careful about the contracts you sign up to...and the share up schemes that have no exit mechanism, and the overall cost of same, especially if it has to be paid for out if after tax money.
Hopefully the glanbia move will put a stop to the preservation of the old boys club.

Farmer Ed

alps wrote: »

One creamery probably not a good thing, but a system that would allow farmers to move to the better paying, more efficient processors is important for producers. What is disappointing is the movement by "the industry" to get suppliers to sign up to contracts that will completely inhibit the possibility of switching to a better processor. Of course the industry is moving go protect itself...all those CEO's all those boards, all those defined benefit pensions....farmers need to move to protect themselves too.
Be careful about the contracts you sign up to...and the share up schemes that have no exit mechanism, and the overall cost of same, especially if it has to be paid for out if after tax money.
Hopefully the glanbia move will put a stop to the preservation of the old boys club.

Could not agree with you more!

the_boatman

bbam wrote: »

Surely a monopoly in any business is a bad thing..

Sure if it was a traditional co-operative where there are no public share holders to be pandered to..
But the minute there are public share holders then the board's sole job is to maximise returns to the public shareholders - whatever it takes !

not like their is any real competition at the moment

one creamery is unlikely but eventually their will only be two or three , Lakeland will consume Connacht gold , not that Lakeland is particulary large but in the north east and north west , their is no one else with the same presence , its also not a desirable area for the two giants , glanbia and Kerry will carve up dairygold etc between them in the south

Farmer Ed

Milked out wrote: »

What would happen to botherbue if craft pulled out?? A small co op with one main customer isn't exactly a guaranteed recipe for success either

What would happen to Botherbue if Craft need more milk and decide to expand here also? Now there's a thought!!They could end up blowing Dairygold out of the water as I doubt Craft would want to deal with Dairygold after the way they fell out with Nestlé a few years back.

The fact is Botherbue have a much better market than Dairygold and I'm guessing the arrangement must be suiting Craft too . Botherbue will not be effected by world market price as much in a bad year. For a while in 2009 they were 4 cent/l ahead. For the 80 farmers lucky enough to be supplying them. Good luck to them.

It is a total disgrace the way Dg have been stopping them from taking on more suppliers! If they really believed in the co op ethos they would support their members in getting the best price for their milk where ever they could and not try and hold them as slaves! They clearly are not worried about not being able to process members milk. They seem to be far more worried that someone else might do it for them. All this talk about their new plant and the cost of it is just a red herring to force everyone in to a contract. They no full well without it they may find it hard to hold on to suppliers post 2015.

alps

Milked out wrote: »

What would happen to botherbue if craft pulled out?? A small co op with one main customer isn't exactly a guaranteed recipe for success either

There are lots of what ifs in what we do as dairy farmers...the weather, disease, cost increases etc. The plant in Rathmore may be there for years and years, that's years and years of good milk price. If it closes or they begin to pay a poor price, rest assured there will be an outlet for your milk....
The worry that there will be no outlet for your milk stems from the usual salesman ploy of throwing in the doubt. This doubt was constantly used to good effect in the neighbouring coop, not only by the company reps, but bought into by committee members who seem to have lost all faith in being able to make their own judgment about issues. This manifested in answers like "but we were told.....this and that" and no matter how much evidence of proof to the contrary, they just believed the spiff from management.
Don't believe anyone who has something to sell, until you find out for yourself.

There will be the world of opportunities to sell your milk...keep the cards in your hand..

Farmer Ed

alps wrote: »

There are lots of what ifs in what we do as dairy farmers...the weather, disease, cost increases etc. The plant in Rathmore may be there for years and years, that's years and years of good milk price. If it closes or they begin to pay a poor price, rest assured there will be an outlet for your milk....
The worry that there will be no outlet for your milk stems from the usual salesman ploy of throwing in the doubt. This doubt was constantly used to good effect in the neighbouring coop, not only by the company reps, but bought into by committee members who seem to have lost all faith in being able to make their own judgment about issues. This manifested in answers like "but we were told.....this and that" and no matter how much evidence of proof to the contrary, they just believed the spiff from management.
Don't believe anyone who has something to sell, until you find out for yourself.

There will be the world of opportunities to sell your milk...keep the cards in your hand..

That is so true! DG farmers were still being told up until lately that unless we go along with their plan our milk would not be able to be processed post 2015. Then anyone who said fine I'll get it processed somewhere else were prevented from doing so! Do we own the co op or do co op managment own us? Your dead right it's all spin. DG have Pat Keating and Co from Dublin working as their spin Doctor. I dont think Botherbue or west Cork ever even employ spin Doctors and why should they? Crazy stuff! A CEO on anything up to a million a year and he has to pay a PR firm to write his speeches for him!

Blue Holland

Farmer Ed wrote: »

That is so true! DG farmers were still being told up until lately that unless we go along with their plan our milk would not be able to be processed post 2015. Then anyone who said fine I'll get it processed somewhere else were prevented from doing so! Do we own the co op or do co op managment own us? Your dead right it's all spin. DG have Pat Keating and Co from Dublin working as their spin Doctor. I dont think Botherbue or west Cork ever even employ spin Doctors and why should they? Crazy stuff! A CEO on anything up to a million a year and he has to pay a PR firm to write his speeches for him!

Getting tired of hearing about your issues with Dairygold. Can't seem to open a thread this week without seeing same stuff repeated.

mf240

Blue Holland wrote: »

Getting tired of hearing about your issues with Dairygold. Can't seem to open a thread this week without seeing same stuff repeated.

Thank god he didn't keep the bull calves to finish or he would be beside himself.

Farmer ed, did you ever think of going on Jeremy kyle?

onyerbikepat

Competition, theres nothing like it. Why would you want less of it? :mad:

hurling_lad

I would think that a Glanbia/Dairygold merger within the next five years would be a real possibility. That would be a big step towards a de-facto Fonterra/Arla/Friesland-Campina style set-up in the country with a single dominant, farmer-owned co-op along with a few niche players.

Don't forget that there were talks taking place just over two years ago and one of the main obstacles that was in place at that time (Glanbia Plc structure) is now (more or less) gone.

Farmer Ed

The same people who advised it was a good idea to rear the bull calves are the ones now advising you that the Fonterra model is a great idea. Go down that road and we could all end up on the Jeremy Kyle show as a third of their suppliers are in danger of losing their farms.

Fact is over the last ten years a 100 cow farmer in a small co op in west cork was paid €49100 more than a 100 cow farmer in our largest co op. Question is why was that? Knowing some farmers down in west cork I would have to say a lot of them are the best farmers in the country. It's a small area where the co ops may not be competing directly. But they are small enough for the farmers to have a say in how they are run. If a board or management isn't performing. They just would never be able to live it up down there as the farmers would not settle for secound best. None of these guys are on a million a year but they know if they mess up they are going to hear about it. They cant afford Spin doctors and they know they will be judged on their performance.

I hear they have just completed a refurb of a 5 tonne dryer down in Carbery for just €3m. Didn't even feel the need to contact the local news papers about it. How much of a saving will that be to west cork farmers compared to the fancy high flying stuff that is being spun to us in the media by the larger co ops?

Mr Woulfe

Blue Holland wrote: »

Getting tired of hearing about your issues with Dairygold. Can't seem to open a thread this week without seeing same stuff repeated.

Seems to me you have a choice if you want to read it or skip past it. But I agree with Ed for what it's worth. If we all sign contracts we will have in effect one big Co Op as none of us can move and it will be and end to competition. He is 100% right! If you go to the links he gave you. you can see for yourself that the 2012 EU milk package came in to being in Oct 2012 and is meant to protect farmers. It is totally out of line with what co ops are trying to do . Of course he's angry as it would seem that DG may have pulled a fast one and all the other co ops are trying to follow. It's going to effect all farmers if we let them get away with it. It would appear he is right. If you go to the link he told you about on www.dmssg.com it looks very much like Irish co ops are breaking EU laws that were put in place to protect you.

Does that not worry you? In effect if they get away with it, we will just have one big monopoly.

As for the original question by MF? It seams it is clear from this weeks IFJ that it is not the size of the wave that matters but rather the motion of the ocean.;) One big co op in my view would be like the HSE of farming. But all farmers tied down by contracts to any co op what ever size will amount to the same thing as it will do away with competition.

Don't know what is wrong with Irish farmers? The French would burn the place down if their co ops tried to pull a stroke like this!