Landlord Obligations Re: Flooding

Billyum

We are currently renting a house in Cork city center which was flooded to a depth of 8 inches twice in the space of 36 hours. We just want to know what is the landlords obligation regarding having the house cleaned? none of our property was damaged but appliances (fridge, oven, washing machine) and kitchen presses, all had water in them. We cleared out the water and debris but surely the landlord needs to have the house cleaned properly? the water was dark brown and smelled like **** frankly, but they claim its not their responsibility. They also claim they had cleaners in but there is still silt on the floor in and lower down cabinets, and they wouldnt provide a receipt from these "cleaners".

They did provide sandbags, which failed obviously but course the landlord cannot be held responsible for the fact that the house flooded.

and! We did ask if the house flooded before we signed the lease, they said no, not in the last ten years, however after asking the firemen who pumped us out and our neighbours we found out it acutally floods almost annually.

Have I anything to go on??

djimi

The landlord is not responsible for any of your possessions, but in terms of the house and any appliances/fittings contained within, it would not be your responsibility. It would be different if the place flooded through any fault of yours, but in this scenario that is clearly not the case.

Michael D Not Higgins

Here's some advice on how to clean up after flooding
http://www.flooding.ie/en/Afterflooding/Cleaningupyourhouse/

and Threshold's advice on dealing with flooding
http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/tips_for_dealing_with_flooding.pdf

I can't find whose responsibility it would fall to (I'd expect Landlord should clean and include this as claim on insurance). You may want to contact Threshold for more advice

odds_on

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Here's some advice on how to clean up after flooding
http://www.flooding.ie/en/Afterflooding/Cleaningupyourhouse/

and Threshold's advice on dealing with flooding
http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/tips_for_dealing_with_flooding.pdf

I can't find whose responsibility it would fall to (I'd expect Landlord should clean and include this as claim on insurance). You may want to contact Threshold for more advice

Probably find that the landlord can't get flood insurance if its been flooded before.

Michael D Not Higgins

odds_on wrote: »

Probably find that the landlord can't get flood insurance if its been flooded before.

True but they still have the obligation for the flat.

MouseTail

odds_on wrote: »

Probably find that the landlord can't get flood insurance if its been flooded before.

A dreadful situation for all involved. I would speak frankly to the LL, he is facing a large bill if he has to replace all appliances etc., and he may not have the finances to do so if he cannot insure the place. Furthermore, do you want to remain in a place prone to flooding?

Billyum

MouseTail wrote: »

A dreadful situation for all involved. I would speak frankly to the LL, he is facing a large bill if he has to replace all appliances etc., and he may not have the finances to do so if he cannot insure the place. Furthermore, do you want to remain in a place prone to flooding?

Taking the flooding out of the equation, then yes, we couldnt find a better house location wise, and we were happy here before, besides wev been told we will loose our deposit if we move and break out contract since the house is technically livable in, even if it is swarming with bacteria... which is my issue here really. The LL shows zero interest and if we had not rang them 10+ times they wouldnt have even called over, absolutely no inquiry into whether their property had been damaged at all. Basically the flooding is completely our (the tenants) problem to deal with... Threshold say there are very little guidelines and rules when it comes to natural flooding:(

AndyTheDude

Wow, I cannot believe you're still living in the house. I've worked in the water/fire damage trade for a german company and believe me, the house is not "technically livable in".
Just to give you a general idea, in all the jobs we've done floor was removed, all flooded furniture and appliances ended up in skip, sometimes we even stripped out plastering from walls. Drying up takes a few days and involves several fans/dehumidifiers and heaters per room. The chemicals we were spraying were so strong that we had to use full protective gear including full-face mask...
Move out asap until it gets sorted, your place was covered in sewage and normal cleaning just won't do.

chocoroll

Honestly? I don't get way you would want someone else to clean you're house.... If there is stuff damaged that's a different story but cleaning???? It's probably my dutch side but I really don't get that......

sawdoubters

I would move out till he fixes it removes sheetrock carpets etc
http://whyfiles.org/2012/after-the-flood-the-menace-of-mold/


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6326/1773816.pdf

greeno

This actually happened me in 2011 when Dundrum flooded, water got to about a foot but subsided quickly, still left the floors and parts of the wall a mess. Our LL was top notch, we came to an agreement not to pay rent for the month and this more or less covered our hotel stay for the month. He gutted and relaid the floors and plasterboard where flood damaged painted the place and left it like new. Some of the work like painting overlapped with is being back in the place but we were both civilised and reasonable about it. He claimed his insurance for the work. It's LL responsibility to have the place safe to live in full stop.

Billyum

chocoroll wrote: »

Honestly? I don't get way you would want someone else to clean you're house.... If there is stuff damaged that's a different story but cleaning???? It's probably my dutch side but I really don't get that......

Because if your house is washed over with sewage contaminated water it needs to be cleaned by professionals l, my housemate or I have not got even near the capability to do it properly, our landlord claims this unnecessary

LisaLee

Our apartment got flooded but it was because of a faulty washing machine. We deal with a letting agency and they had a cleaning crew out the same day to clean up. The cost were covered, presumably by the landlord, and the washing machine was eventually replaced. It's a different flooding situation, but one would imagine that your landlord would be responsible for the cleaning at least.

I found this article from Threshold re. Landlord's responsibility's for flooding, but it's 3 years old, so it may be out of date. Your best bet would be to give Threshold a call and hopefully they can help.

MugMugs

Op, flood water generally contains sewage. There's most likely ecoli and other nice little friendly organisms in your home. I'd be moving out ASAP if I were you.

rovoagho

chocoroll wrote: »

Honestly? I don't get way you would want someone else to clean you're house.

It's not their house.

Cuddlesworth

Billyum wrote: »

Threshold say there are very little guidelines and rules when it comes to natural flooding:(

Just remember, your landlord is going to have to sit in front on a judge in the PRTB and explain why in a apartment which is prone to flooding in which he denied when you moved in, he then refused to clean, replaced appliances or do any general repairs when the residence filled up with **** infested water.

He can no longer provide a place to live. Find a new residence and get your rent in advance and deposit back.

Mrs OBumble

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Wow, I cannot believe you're still living in the house. I've worked in the water/fire damage trade for a german company and believe me, the house is not "technically livable in".
Just to give you a general idea, in all the jobs we've done floor was removed, all flooded furniture and appliances ended up in skip, sometimes we even stripped out plastering from walls. Drying up takes a few days and involves several fans/dehumidifiers and heaters per room. The chemicals we were spraying were so strong that we had to use full protective gear including full-face mask...
Move out asap until it gets sorted, your place was covered in sewage and normal cleaning just won't do.

Indeed. In some countries, a house which is flooded with sewage-contaminated water is demolished, end of story. Ireland appears to live with a different standard of hygiene.

fash

Billyum wrote: »

and! We did ask if the house flooded before we signed the lease, they said no, not in the last ten years, however after asking the firemen who pumped us out and our neighbours we found out it acutally floods almost annually.

Have I anything to go on??

This is negligent or fraudulent misrepresentation.
Knowingly or negligently making a false statement which indices another into a contract.

Billyum

So, just to update, after choosing to stop dealing with our ridiculous landlord, we approached their much more reasonable partner. They agreed to give money towards the ESB, 40% off rent for the week and get the house steam cleaned. Reasonable?

beauf

I would imagine it would be in the walls and floors. I don't think I'd want to stay there tbh. You'd have gut everything that was under water.

goat2

i feel sorry for you and landlord, but my gut tells me that the landlord will have to take the fall, it is nobodys fault, just hard luck,

djimi

40% off rent for the week? How long was the house under water and how long have you been waiting to get it cleaned?

Id be looking to move out and only consider moving back in once it has been cleaned to a level that you are absolutely satisfied with. I dont think Id be prepared to pay much/any rent during that time either.

Im also not sure that a steam clean is going to be sufficient if the place was properly flooded.

charlietheminxx

OP I work in a place that deals with this sort of thing, a steam clean will not cut it. Your landlord is being a cheapskate and you're not wise to stay there without a proper assessment being done and remediation works being carried out.

Grandpa Hassan

I can't believe you are still there, OP. There is a good chance that the LL, rather than just being a cheapskate, doesn't have the funds to do the necessary work. And you can't get blood out of a stone, even if you go the the PTRB. Insurance money might have to come through before the LL can do anything. And that could be ages

Michael D Not Higgins

Didn't the government just announce money for property owners recently affected by the flooding?

Grandpa Hassan

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Didn't the government just announce money for property owners recently affected by the flooding?

I think they did, but it's still going to take time. They arent going to just toss cash to anyone...they'll have to be an application, just as if you're claiming insurance. I doubt money is going to be in a property owners bank account tomorrow.

Michael D Not Higgins

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think they did, but it's still going to take time. They arent going to just toss cash to anyone...they'll have to be an application, just as if you're claiming insurance. I doubt money is going to be in a property owners bank account tomorrow.

I heard on the radio there's an emergency fund for the immediate works and a larger fund that'll cover flooring, white goods, etc.

the_syco

Billyum wrote: »

We did ask if the house flooded before we signed the lease, they said no, not in the last ten years, however after asking the firemen who pumped us out and our neighbours we found out it acutally floods almost annually.

greeno wrote: »

He claimed his insurance for the work. It's LL responsibility to have the place safe to live in full stop.

I'm guessing if the place has flooded already, the insurance company probably took out flood coverage.

Billyum wrote: »

get the house steam cleaned. Reasonable?

It'll clean the walls and the floor. But the sewage will have gotten into the walls, under the floorboards. Heck, there could be still some sewage under the floorboards!

MugMugs

Anything that the flood water touches has to be disposed of.

Just move out OP.

Grandpa Hassan

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I heard on the radio there's an emergency fund for the immediate works and a larger fund that'll cover flooring, white goods, etc.

There is no way that government assistance will be enough to make a badly flooded house habitable.....deal with the sewage under the floors and behind the walls and re-wiring, and all the other stuff needed.

I think the OP is crazy to consider staying. It defeats the main benefit of renting, which is that you can leave if things go tits up!

Michael D Not Higgins

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

There is no way that government assistance will be enough to make a badly flooded house habitable.....deal with the sewage under the floors and behind the walls and re-wiring, and all the other stuff needed.

I think the OP is crazy to consider staying. It defeats the main benefit of renting, which is that you can leave if things go tits up!

I'm not arguing for the OP staying and I'd agree that they should move. I am just pointing out the funding available for this landlord when they say they're not responsible (which of course they are, it's their feckin' flat).

jmayo

Billyum wrote: »

Taking the flooding out of the equation, then yes, we couldnt find a better house location wise, and we were happy here before, besides wev been told we will loose our deposit if we move and break out contract since the house is technically livable in, even if it is swarming with bacteria... which is my issue here really. The LL shows zero interest and if we had not rang them 10+ times they wouldnt have even called over, absolutely no inquiry into whether their property had been damaged at all. Basically the flooding is completely our (the tenants) problem to deal with... Threshold say there are very little guidelines and rules when it comes to natural flooding:(

FFS a flood damaged house, with sewage contaminated water upto 8 inches is not livable.
Thus they have broken the contract in not providing you with livable accommodation and compensation (alternative accommodation or no rental charges) whilst it is being fixed.

It is not ideal location wise because it is prone to flooding.
Cork is going to flood again and as the climate is changing it will happen more often.
How long will it take the authorities to build the proposed flood defenses and even then with the amount of money they are proposing they will probably not totally prevent flooding.
So get out and find somewhere higher up.

Also the landlord is useless and uncaring so why continue to do business with such a person.

Billyum wrote: »

So, just to update, after choosing to stop dealing with our ridiculous landlord, we approached their much more reasonable partner. They agreed to give money towards the ESB, 40% off rent for the week and get the house steam cleaned. Reasonable?

Where are you currently living ?
The ESB bill could be very high since to clean out the place properly could involve heaters, dehumidifiers running continously.

40% me backside.
Why should you pay any rent for the place when it is a) unlivable and b) probably a health hazard ?

Would you pay a car hire company for car hire for the week whilst they had the car in the garage ?

Steam cleaned to them probably means they send in one of their mates with a power washer and a steam mop.
It aint good enough.

Stop any further rent payments immediately and look for your deposit back.

As Grandpa said the landlord may be another one of those in hock up to their eyeballs and doesn't have the money so you aint going to get anything.

goat2

Billyum wrote: »

We are currently renting a house in Cork city center which was flooded to a depth of 8 inches twice in the space of 36 hours. We just want to know what is the landlords obligation regarding having the house cleaned? none of our property was damaged but appliances (fridge, oven, washing machine) and kitchen presses, all had water in them. We cleared out the water and debris but surely the landlord needs to have the house cleaned properly? the water was dark brown and smelled like **** frankly, but they claim its not their responsibility. They also claim they had cleaners in but there is still silt on the floor in and lower down cabinets, and they wouldnt provide a receipt from these "cleaners".

They did provide sandbags, which failed obviously but course the landlord cannot be held responsible for the fact that the house flooded.

and! We did ask if the house flooded before we signed the lease, they said no, not in the last ten years, however after asking the firemen who pumped us out and our neighbours we found out it acutally floods almost annually.

Have I anything to go on??

if it is then true that it had flooded annually, he lied, that was not right to lie to ye,
it gave ye no chance to prepare, he should be held responsible for the lot,

my guess is that if he had said that it flooded annually, you would have just moved on and found a place without a history of flooding, which means that you would not be in this situation,
that was all wrong of a person to tell a huge lie such as that, if that is the case

SteelyDanJalapeno

A couple of hundred Euro deposit is not worth you health OP, you could get seriously sick from staying here. I'd suggest moving out straight away.

Cuddlesworth

charlietheminxx wrote: »

OP I work in a place that deals with this sort of thing, a steam clean will not cut it. Your landlord is being a cheapskate and you're not wise to stay there without a proper assessment being done and remediation works being carried out.

I did this before as well. In 2-3 weeks that house is going to stink to high heaven. If the house has flooded before, he already knows this. He isn't going to be able to rent it for months.

We went in and ripped out the entire bottom floor, floorboards, joists, kitchen, stud walls and redid the electrics of two flooded houses. Place still smelled a little when it was all finished. There are going to be pockets of water all around the place, with a decent amount of bacteria already there waiting to fester. A "Steam clean" will not get them.

Do not accept any deal, move out. You will regret any other decision.

cerastes

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

There is no way that government assistance will be enough to make a badly flooded house habitable.....deal with the sewage under the floors and behind the walls and re-wiring, and all the other stuff needed.

I think the OP is crazy to consider staying. It defeats the main benefit of renting, which is that you can leave if things go tits up!

why would the wiring need to be redone? replacing certain parts, but re-wiring? is that necessary?

As for redoing the rest, while avoiding a property prone to flooding would be best, there must be measures a property owner can implement to limit the effects of flooding?
Depending on whether its a solid floor or a suspended wooden floor on the ground floor, might change things.
Would plastered walls instead of plasterboard make a difference? or a horizontal separation between the level that might be flooded and above.
Saw something from flooding in the UK where, rather than sandbags, someone had protected the ground floor from water ingress, by adding a seal and barrier at entrances which they built up as water level increased.
Id move the white goods out of the way too or fit them at a higher level, where possible, its work but if it saves having to replace previously fully functional goods.
Dont think Id consider using carpet as a floor covering in somewhere susceptible to flooding till I had some kind of barrier in place that I knew worked. If you can keep the dirty water out then

Cuddlesworth

cerastes wrote: »

why would the wiring need to be redone? replacing certain parts, but re-wiring? is that necessary?

Corroded contacts on wall points and junction boxes. Since you have no real idea how a place was wired, the best option is to rip it all up and redo it.

cerastes wrote: »

As for redoing the rest, while avoiding a property prone to flooding would be best, there must be measures a property owner can implement to limit the effects of flooding?
Depending on whether its a solid floor or a suspended wooden floor on the ground floor, might change things.
Would plastered walls instead of plasterboard make a difference? or a horizontal separation between the level that might be flooded and above.
Saw something from flooding in the UK where, rather than sandbags, someone had protected the ground floor from water ingress, by adding a seal and barrier at entrances which they built up as water level increased.
Id move the white goods out of the way too or fit them at a higher level, where possible, its work but if it saves having to replace previously fully functional goods.
Dont think Id consider using carpet as a floor covering in somewhere susceptible to flooding till I had some kind of barrier in place that I knew worked. If you can keep the dirty water out then

Waterproof tiling up to flood levels, waterproof barriers over the doorways, electrics and plumbing through the ceilings and down the walls, higher sockets then normal. Avoid Stud walls, hollow bricks and ground level plumbing attached to sewage systems.

If you can, demolish the house and build it raised on supports.

Billyum

I should probably mention that there are no stud walls in the house and the floors down stairs are all tiled. Also as regards moving, I would have no problem moving out except Im leaving cork in a few months. 90% of landlords want a minimum 1 year lease, so when you tell them you only want the house for five months they dont want to know you, and if you dont mention it they always ask you, in which case id have to lie, which opens a whole other can of worms. Literally nobody wants you for such a short time. And if you go down the whole PRTB route there is no guarantee that you will win... and if you take a case against your landlord they will probably **** you out on the street (albeit with 28 days notice). Rendering me homeless.......

charlietheminxx

Look OP you came here for advice. If you're willing to accept your cowboy landlord not caring about his tenants and stay there in a festering house and risk your health then that's your decision, but there are plenty of short leases available, and in any case the landlord should be providing you with alternative accommodation while repairs are carried out.

Even if you're leaving, what about the people who move in next being told it never floods? The place will be reeking in the warmer weather. Nobody should be living in that house right now.

cmssjone

Not trying to hijack this thread but if an apartment was flooded due to negligence by the tenant eg water left running, would the landlord be expected to cover the repairs? I understand this isn't the case with the OP and am just curious.

djimi

Billyum wrote: »

I should probably mention that there are no stud walls in the house and the floors down stairs are all tiled. Also as regards moving, I would have no problem moving out except Im leaving cork in a few months. 90% of landlords want a minimum 1 year lease, so when you tell them you only want the house for five months they dont want to know you, and if you dont mention it they always ask you, in which case id have to lie, which opens a whole other can of worms. Literally nobody wants you for such a short time. And if you go down the whole PRTB route there is no guarantee that you will win... and if you take a case against your landlord they will probably **** you out on the street (albeit with 28 days notice). Rendering me homeless.......

It should be possible to get a 6 month lease with some negotiating (maybe sweeten the deal by offering a few quid more a month). Personally Id sooner sacrifice a month of rent than continue living in a house that is potentially hazardous to my health.

Its also possible to reassign the remainder of a lease; as you say its not always easy to find a short term letting so it might not be that hard to find someone who is willing to take on the 6-7 months remaining of your 1 year lease if it comes to that. Especially if you live in a decent rental area.

djimi

cmssjone wrote: »

Not trying to hijack this thread but if an apartment was flooded due to negligence by the tenant eg water left running, would the landlord be expected to cover the repairs? I understand this isn't the case with the OP and am just curious.

If the landlord can prove that the tenant caused the damage then yes the tenant would be responsible.