ESB broadband and its effect on HF radio

PauloMN

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-to-allow-operators-use-electricity-grid-for-fibre-broadband-29850618.html

Is this the final nail in the coffin of HF radio? I presume this is similar technology to the plug-in network devices, just on a larger scale - and given what I've read about HF being obliterated by those devices locally, I'm guessing broadband being applied nationally on the power networks will have a similar (or worse) effect on a country-wide scale.

Or is the broadband over the power lines applied using a different (non-RF) technology?

GekkePrutser

PauloMN wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-to-allow-operators-use-electricity-grid-for-fibre-broadband-29850618.html

Is this the final nail in the coffin of HF radio? I presume this is similar technology to the plug-in network devices, just on a larger scale - and given what I've read about HF being obliterated by those devices locally, I'm guessing broadband being applied nationally on the power networks will have a similar (or worse) effect on a country-wide scale.

Or is the broadband over the power lines applied using a different (non-RF) technology?

It must be some kind of RF if it's fast data over copper. Fast data speeds automatically use high frequencies. I believe most power line systems use baseband transmission though so there is no carrier. But I don't know what this is, sounds like the exact technology is not yet decided until some party actually wants to offer it. I wonder why the article mentions mobile providers specifically, there'd be many other parties that would be interested.

I wonder about the effects, I'm a HAM myself and I use power line adapters at home sometimes (no choice, rented house with inadequate cabling). And I don't notice a big drop in HF performance. Granted I hardly use HF, I only monitor certain nets sometimes. But I plugged one in once when I was listening to 20m and there was no effect.

I think all it'll do is raise the noise floor. Which has been done by many other technologies before and HF is still in active use today. I doubt we're the first country to do this and I haven't heard any horror stories around. So my guess is it will be OK.

Sheldons Brain

ESB broadband will be achieved by wrapping fibre optic cable around power lines, so no major effect on RF interference, I imagine.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88614697

They could try some last mile broadband over the low voltage network, I suppose.

martinsvi

Power line broadband was a concern when concept was introduced in early 2000s, they used anything between 1.6 to 80 MHz, but quickly enough they realized that these powerlines are effectively unshielded antennas and as much as they give interference to other users, they also suffer greatly from it themselves. Atmospheric noises and activities of the Sun made broadband practically useless to its users.

Another challenge is the speed itself. Using HF they cannot achieve better speed that around 2Mbps, which is unacceptable by today's standards.

Modern broadband over power line solutions use 2 to 20 GHz spectrum which allows them to achieve great speeds, avoid natural interference and do not interfere with most radio communications.

Capt'n Midnight

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

ESB broadband will be achieved by wrapping fibre optic cable around power lines, so no major effect on RF interference, I imagine.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88614697

They could try some last mile broadband over the low voltage network, I suppose.

AFAIK they are working on a cheap way to slide the cable in between existing cables, so the goal is FTTH

No electrical noise and oodles of bandwidth

And fairly future proof
http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4x3tXDUL8h2VAQAURh_Yw!!?LMSG_CABINET=Docs_and_Resource_Ctr&LMSG_CONTENT_FILE=News_Releases_2014/News_Article_002988.xml

watty

Internet over Electrical cable is largely regarded as a failure as the speed is too low and it's vulnerable to Mobile Radio / Phones. One "substation" serves too many homes. It only fast enough in reality for smart meters and too expensive for them.

ESB has been and is using fibre.

The in Home power line ethernet (homeplug) etc would all be illegal if properly tested. The CE approve involves a legal loophole. If you complain enough to Comreg they will enforce removal of any offending equipment of any type eventually, but it can take a nine months to year as there are maybe only 8 active Engineers on the 122 Comreg staff.

PauloMN

Interesting stuff, ok so what the ESB are proposing to use is not what was referred to as "PLT" (Power Line Transmissions) about 7 or 8 years ago in all the radio magazines like PW, Radio USer etc.. That's good news it has to be said, as the results of PLT experiments seemed to render any local HF setup as completely unusable.

So have ESB got a fibre infrastructure already in existence? How much have they got, compared to Eircom I wonder?

Capt'n Midnight

PauloMN wrote: »

Interesting stuff, ok so what the ESB are proposing to use is not what was referred to as "PLT" (Power Line Transmissions) about 7 or 8 years ago in all the radio magazines like PW, Radio USer etc.. That's good news it has to be said, as the results of PLT experiments seemed to render any local HF setup as completely unusable.

So have ESB got a fibre infrastructure already in existence? How much have they got, compared to Eircom I wonder?

the earth wire on top of the HT pylons usually has a fibre wrapped around it, they already provide backhaul for lots of other parties

The government provided fibre too, and there's fibre along the canals and railways. Basically anyone with an existing long distance route / right of way has fibre these days. Lots of tunnels under rivers and such have it. It's similar to the situation of every decent hill having radio masts by now.

One thing though, fibre is cheap , it's the splicing and comms equipment that costs money, so there is a lot of dark fibre still

Virtually all premises in Ireland have an electricity connection, and for the vast majority of rural lines this an existing above ground path all the way to the building so no waiting on county council permission to get a license to dig up roads because they don't have to dig up roads

mapses
http://www.esbtelecoms.ie/infrastructure/regional_maps.htm