Pro-life groups & schools

oceanclub

There has been some discussion in the media about pro-life groups visiting schools and giving talks. I was wondering if any teachers out there knew anything about these types of visit. Do the groups normally approach the schools? Do the schools do any kind of vetting of the groups involved? Would parents be informed?

Thanks in advance,

P.

spurious

I know they wouldn't get in the door of our place. Not religious owned/run.
Neither would the other side.

gaeilgebeo

I can not think of any school (including Catholic schools) that would let a group like that speak to students. As Spurious said, on either side.

oceanclub

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I can not think of any school (including Catholic schools) that would let a group like that speak to students. As Spurious said, on either side.

Well, the groups themselves say they are giving such talks. So it looks like the schools themselves are hiding this fact.

P.

1huge1

Back when I was in secondary school (2003-2008), every now and then we had these retreat days where this outside group would come in and spend the day with us. Preaching Jesus etc, but I do remember pro life coming up in their message on numerous occasions.

Not to mention our SPHE class having to watch an anti abortion video (which I remember the teacher saying after that we should make up our own minds but that the video was right...).

Yup, very non biased approach we had in our school...

rainbowtrout

We haven't had them in but we did have a fairly staunch Catholic group in for a retreat a few years ago. The fifth and sixth years dubbed them 'the 40 year old virgins'

But in all seriousness the students were ripping with them. The group were all about abstinence and no sex before marriage and the students were of the opinion that that line doesn't wash in the modern world. The group also didn't advocate the use of condoms, obviously because if you were abstaining before marriage there would be no need. Some of our students let them have it about the risk of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Don't think they've been back since.

happywithlife

They do give talks and mores the pity.

I had an experience a few yrs back with an re teacher bringing in a group
Bit like rainbow trout they were preaching no sex before marriage, condoms were evil etc.

I was ripping when I heard afterwards what the content of the talk was. I also had a 6th yr group for re so to 'balance' it a bit set up cura to give their safe sex talk. Not completely unbiased I know, but it was a catholic ethos school but it was the best I could do and I felt they would be more unbiased. It was the yr of all that snow so the talk was postponed 3times before eventually we said we'd leave it till the sprin softer the mocks.

A 6th yr came back after Xmas pregnant :-(

Always did wonder if they'd had a safe sex talk would using protection have been 'fresher' in her mind?:-(

RealJohn

happywithlife, is it not unbelievably blinkered to make out that that 6th year got pregnant because a Catholic group told her not to use condoms? Did they not also tell her to abstain? Did she not get sex education as part of various subjects at junior cert and again at leaving cert level?

And rainbowtrout, don't you think that it was extremely disrespectful of you (or whatever teacher was in charge) to allow your 5th and 6th years to essentially bully a group of guests into silence just because you happen to disagree with their overall message? It might well be the view of the majority of teenagers (and the majority in general) that no sex before marriage is unrealistic these days but just because the majority don't want to do something doesn't mean that the students who did want to, but were probably afraid to speak up given the behaviour of their classmates, shouldn't be allowed to hear what was being said?

Some people are so anti-Catholic these days that they can't accept that theirs isn't the only view.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

happywithlife, is it not unbelievably blinkered to make out that that 6th year got pregnant because a Catholic group told her not to use condoms? Did they not also tell her to abstain? Did she not get sex education as part of various subjects at junior cert and again at leaving cert level?

And rainbowtrout, don't you think that it was extremely disrespectful of you (or whatever teacher was in charge) to allow your 5th and 6th years to essentially bully a group of guests into silence just because you happen to disagree with their overall message? It might well be the view of the majority of teenagers (and the majority in general) that no sex before marriage is unrealistic these days but just because the majority don't want to do something doesn't mean that the students who did want to, but were probably afraid to speak up given the behaviour of their classmates, shouldn't be allowed to hear what was being said?

Some people are so anti-Catholic these days that they can't accept that theirs isn't the only view.

Where did I say they bullied the guests into silence? I didn't say that at all. This was their reaction when they were in my class the next day

The girl that brought it up in my class was actually the kind of girl who still goes to mass every Sunday which is unusual for most modern teenagers. They didn't bully the group into silence but pointed out that abstinence is all very well for an individual but you can't control the choices other people make so the leaving certs thought it was ridiculous to suggest that no conforms was viable if you don't know another persons previous sexual experience. They felt the line they were given was unbalanced and given that most people do have sex before marriage it was irresponsible to suggest to 16&17 year olds that condoms were not necessary.

Theequalizer67

Prolife religious group spoke in community school in sept.
Organised by Re ie chaplain.

Should be stopped

oceanclub

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Prolife religious group spoke in community school in sept.
Organised by Re ie chaplain.

Should be stopped

Could you name the school? I find it weird that people will talk of this happening at schools but names are not mentioned. If those who are pro-life think this is fine, why is it kept secret?

P.

RealJohn

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Prolife religious group spoke in community school in sept.
Organised by Re ie chaplain.

Should be stopped

Why should it be stopped?

And rainbowtrout, your final line pointing out that they haven't been back certainly implies that they were made to feel unwelcome and as a result, don't want to come back.

oceanclub

Why should it be stopped?

If there's nothing wrong that Catholic schools should invite pro-life groups to give talks, can you explain why everyone is then very secretive about this fact? This is what I don't understand.

P.

RealJohn

oceanclub wrote: »

If there's nothing wrong that Catholic schools should invite pro-life groups to give talks, can you explain why everyone is then very secretive about this fact? This is what I don't understand.

P.

How would I know why they're being secretive, if indeed they are? What does it have to do with the question I asked anyway?

Edit - It's possible posters are being secretive because they'd rather not help people identify who they are or where they work on a public internet forum, which is perfectly reasonable if you ask me. It doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy surrounding pro-life groups.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Why should it be stopped?

And rainbowtrout, your final line pointing out that they haven't been back certainly implies that they were made to feel unwelcome and as a result, don't want to come back.

No, it doesn't imply that. The chaplain organises the retreats. She wasn't aware when she booked it that that was what they were going to say to our students. She was not happy with the unrealistic line that they took and didn't book them again. She chose another group that I think we have used the last couple of years which she feels provide a more beneficial service to our students.

You seem to have made massive assumptions based on what I wrote, all of which were way off the mark.

rainbowtrout

oceanclub wrote: »

Could you name the school? I find it weird that people will talk of this happening at schools but names are not mentioned. If those who are pro-life think this is fine, why is it kept secret?

P.

People don't name their schools on here because they don't want to be identified. If you read the posts made by regular posters you can build up a profile on what they teach/how long they are teaching/whether they are teachers or management etc. If you ask them to name their school you are more or less identifying them.

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, it doesn't imply that. The chaplain organises the retreats. She wasn't aware when she booked it that that was what they were going to say to our students. She was not happy with the unrealistic line that they took and didn't book them again. She chose another group that I think we have used the last couple of years which she feels provide a more beneficial service to our students.

You seem to have made massive assumptions based on what I wrote, all of which were way off the mark.

What you intended to imply and what you actually implied don't have to be the same thing.

dharma200

If a pro life group is invited by my children's school to come in and give a talk there will be war. These groups are privately funded and have extreme right wing views.
I personally as a parent would not tolerate this and my children have been advised to notify me if any group or any pro life agenda is taught to them in class time.

RealJohn

dharma200 wrote: »

If a pro life group is invited by my children's school to come in and give a talk there will be war. These groups are privately funded and have extreme right wing views.
I personally as a parent would not tolerate this and my children have been advised to notify me if any group or any pro life agenda is taught to them in class time.

What if they stay 'on message'? Just pro-life, nothing outside of that.
And it's a bit rich to imply that they're all right-wing extremists.

dharma200

RealJohn wrote: »

What if they stay 'on message'? Just pro-life, nothing outside of that.
And it's a bit rich to imply that they're all right-wing extremists.

If my children are exposed to an outside group who have a pro life message, of any kind, there will be war. If the school feels they cannot adequately teach my children about the various options and truths in the real world of sex, education, without having to resort to bringing groups with a singular agenda, there will be war. I really feel that this type of thing is no longer tolerated, even in religious schools.
The grip of bigotry and indoctrination is loosening.

RealJohn

dharma200 wrote: »

If my children are exposed to an outside group who have a pro life message, of any kind, there will be war. If the school feels they cannot adequately teach my children about the various options and truths in the real world of sex, education, without having to resort to bringing groups with a singular agenda, there will be war. I really feel that this type of thing is no longer tolerated, even in religious schools.
The grip of bigotry and indoctrination is loosening.

What does religion have to so with it? You don't have to be religious to be pro-life. And since when is it a bad thing to being in groups who might help the students to understand something better? Have you insisted that your children inform you if an outside group comes in to talk to them about business? Or physics? Or French?

happywithlife

RealJohn wrote: »

happywithlife, is it not unbelievably blinkered to make out that that 6th year got pregnant because a Catholic group told her not to use condoms? Did they not also tell her to abstain? Did she not get sex education as part of various subjects at junior cert and again at leaving .

If you read my post properly you'll see my point was that contraception would have been "fresher" in her mind. I'm sorry right now now I can't think of a better way to put it,
I DID NOT say she got pregnant because she was told to abstain or to avoid condoms. I pointed out that had she had the safe sex talk before her Xmas hols using contraception may have more in the back of her mind. Because the talk was cancelled she missed having that message that "it only takes one time" to get pregnant. I'm not as " unbelievably naive" as you seem to think but I am entitled, knowing the girl in question, that PERHAPS having that talk MAY have made a difference

dharma200

RealJohn wrote: »

What does religion have to so with it? You don't have to be religious to be pro-life. And since when is it a bad thing to being in groups who might help the students to understand something better? Have you insisted that your children inform you if an outside group comes in to talk to them about business? Or physics? Or French?

Business or physics or french have nothing to do with my children's personal or religious development.
The groups who give pro life talks schools are religious.
There is no debate here. You don't have. To be religious tobe pro life, the groups who enter schools to spout pro life agenda ARE religious. If you can show me any group which does this thatis not religious, I will eat my placenta.....

RealJohn

dharma200 wrote: »

Business or physics or french have nothing to do with my children's personal or religious development.
The groups who give pro life talks schools are religious.
There is no debate here. You don't have. To be religious tobe pro life, the groups who enter schools to spout pro life agenda ARE religious. If you can show me any group which does this thatis not religious, I will eat my placenta.....

Business, physics and French have nothing to do with your children's personal development? Really?
And just because you don't want a debate doesn't mean that there isn't one. It just means that you've already made up your mind and aren't willing to listen anymore.

<mod snip...>

Pwpane

dharma200 wrote: »

Business or physics or french have nothing to do with my children's personal or religious development.
The groups who give pro life talks schools are religious.
There is no debate here. You don't have. To be religious tobe pro life, the groups who enter schools to spout pro life agenda ARE religious. If you can show me any group which does this thatis not religious, I will eat my placenta.....

LOL !!

Thank you for that laugh - I needed it.

oceanclub

RealJohn wrote: »

How would I know why they're being secretive, if indeed they are? What does it have to do with the question I asked anyway?

Edit - It's possible posters are being secretive because they'd rather not help people identify who they are or where they work on a public internet forum, which is perfectly reasonable if you ask me. It doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy surrounding pro-life groups.

A user can go anonymous here to post something; I've done that before. Sorry but I don't buy that excuse. It's not a conspiracy to note the fact that schools do not advertise named pro-life groups coming to give talks. Neither do the pro-life groups say which schools they give talks at.

P.

Powerhouse

dharma200 wrote: »

If my children are exposed to an outside group who have a pro life message, of any kind, there will be war. If the school feels they cannot adequately teach my children about the various options and truths in the real world of sex, education, without having to resort to bringing groups with a singular agenda, there will be war. I really feel that this type of thing is no longer tolerated, even in religious schools.
The grip of bigotry and indoctrination is loosening.

So if someone comes in to a school and gives a particular view on an issue 'there will be war'...and you feel the 'grip of bigotry and indoctrination is loosening'? Is it not just a case that the 'grip of bigotry and indoctrination is loosening' more that is in the future likely to be in the hands of people with whom you agree?

From the language you employ 'extreme right-wing views', 'there will be war', 'no longer tolerated' etc. it's not clear that you have any specific opposition to bigotry per se.

For the record I would tend to have a difficulty with speakers of any description being brought in on these matters, but let's not plump ourselves up on the cushion of our own assumed tolerance and liberal-mindendness while at the same time angrily screaming down anyone and using over-the-top language regarding anyone that might have a different world-view. Bigotry wears many different clothes.

Powerhouse

RealJohn wrote: »

What does religion have to so with it?

Everything. Because it moves the argument from the abstract to something specific (religion) which can be respectably and popularly opposed, and you are not required to propound any specific viewpoint in doing so. You can simply be against it.

Opposing a view as to how society might organise itself on important ethical issues is a minefield as things can be so absract and unclear. But stick a label on someone and oppose the label and things are much easier. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it's why the terms pro-life and religion are usually conflated.

RealJohn

I know we're not supposed to address warnings on thread but I'd just like to say that if dharma (or anyone else) found my last post in any way threatening, I apologise. It wasn't how it was intended but I apologise none the less. Maybe it was poorly phrased.

What I meant is that I find it funny that someone who is so obviously intolerant of the religious beliefs of others is accusing other people of bigotry.