cheep ireland stars in their eyes

Lano Lynn

My imaginary pedigree ewes have finished lambing about a fortnight ago so I can register them as being born 1 feb:D.

The average birth weight was 5kg but I’ll say they were 3kg.
there are 15 lambs from 10 ewes but I will notify SI as having 20

I have 5 that don’t come up to my high standards so I will cull them off;).

had to handle 4 ewes and ceasarian on one but I had no difficult lambings .


How may 5 stars can I expect and should there be an ‘estimated honesty value ‘:eek:........acc0%!!!!:rolleyes:may be should do a poll on this?



(how many different smilies can you fit in your replies):cool:

AnFeirmeoir

Lano Lynn wrote: »

My imaginary pedigree ewes have finished lambing about a fortnight ago so I can register them as being born 1 feb:D.

The average birth weight was 5kg but I’ll say they were 3kg.
there are 15 lambs from 10 ewes but I will notify SI as having 20

I have 5 that don’t come up to my high standards so I will cull them off;).

had to handle 4 ewes and ceasarian on one but I had no difficult lambings .


How may 5 stars can I expect and should there be an ‘estimated honesty value ‘:eek:........acc0%!!!!:rolleyes:may be should do a poll on this?



(how many different smilies can you fit in your replies):cool:

Depressing to think this is what pedigree boys are up to. But they must be to some degree if they're in it to make money.

grassroot1

Your not being fair, I don't doubt there are guys that are not 100% honest but some of us are. I don't pad the truth and am prepared to stand over my figures on deaths or difficulties. You are only fooling yourself in the long run

Lano Lynn

grassroot1 wrote: »

Your not being fair, I don't doubt there are guys that are not 100% honest but some of us are. I don't pad the truth and am prepared to stand over my figures on deaths or difficulties. You are only fooling yourself in the long run

I commend you for your integrety.
I do know there are some breeders who do understand that the system only works with 100% honesty but allas they are in the minority.
I agree those abusing the system are only fooling themselves unfortunatly it is commercial farmers and honest breeders like yourself that paying the price.
Very few pedigree breeders I know have any real concept of productive improvement and even less are actually implementing breeding and culling stratagies to deliver genetic progress,they are fixated with nonsense like heads or some puffed up price in scotland.

I was trying to make the point that if you want to follow euro stars know your breeder very well.

sheepmad

Lano Lynn wrote: »

My imaginary pedigree ewes have finished lambing about a fortnight ago so I can register them as being born 1 feb:D.

The average birth weight was 5kg but I’ll say they were 3kg.
there are 15 lambs from 10 ewes but I will notify SI as having 20

I have 5 that don’t come up to my high standards so I will cull them off;).

had to handle 4 ewes and ceasarian on one but I had no difficult lambings .


How may 5 stars can I expect and should there be an ‘estimated honesty value ‘:eek:........acc0%!!!!:rolleyes:may be should do a poll on this?



(how many different smilies can you fit in your replies):cool:

With an attitude like that the sheep industry in Ireland is safe as it is and won't change in the foreseeable future........

rancher

Lano Lynn wrote: »

I commend you for your integrety.
I do know there are some breeders who do understand that the system only works with 100% honesty but allas they are in the minority.
I agree those abusing the system are only fooling themselves unfortunatly it is commercial farmers and honest breeders like yourself that paying the price.
Very few pedigree breeders I know have any real concept of productive improvement and even less are actually implementing breeding and culling stratagies to deliver genetic progress,they are fixated with nonsense like heads or some puffed up price in scotland.

I was trying to make the point that if you want to follow euro stars know your breeder very well.

I wonder how many pedigree societies spot check breeders certs using DNA tests

Cran

rancher wrote: »

I wonder how many pedigree societies spot check breeders certs using DNA tests

I think this would be a great idea, maybe something Sheep Ireland could introduce as technology in genomics develop.

On the faking information into the Star system, unless a very large breeder I think accuracies will catch them out. If low accuracies should really ignore for the trait, but really a dishonest breeder will lose customers hopefully....

rancher

Cran wrote: »

I think this would be a great idea, maybe something Sheep Ireland could introduce as technology in genomics develop.

On the faking information into the Star system, unless a very large breeder I think accuracies will catch them out. If low accuracies should really ignore for the trait, but really a dishonest breeder will lose customers hopefully....

When a ram is tested around the country on different farms, a five star that doesn't perform will be found out. Not only will his own rating drop, but so will his progeny. At least any farmer that bought the so called five star progeny is able to look up sheep Ireland and if his ram is now a 2 star he'll know one of the dishonest breeders.
Vendeen society DNA test every fiftieth registration...not enough I know but it does keep people on their toes, a few got found out at the start but none now. Its expensive for a small society having to DNA 3 sheep for every test

Lano Lynn

what do they DNA test for, parentage?

rancher

Lano Lynn wrote: »

what do they DNA test for, parentage?

Yea, take dna from lamb and sire and dam and see if they are as they say

Sheep breeder

one slight problem this happens in all animal breeds. cattle, dairy cows,dogs and not just sheep. it amazes me how farmers buy from faces and not the sheep. go to any breed sale and the big name guys pen is full pf people who have to buy out of his pen or you dont know your sheep unless you go home with one of his in the trailer.
as for this stap scheme and stars this is a total waste of time its only comparing animals in the flock with low accurace figures, if the whole flock was seen some would have seriously low figures and would shock how bad some sheep are,
in france they run a test station system where lambs go in at roughly the same age and are fed the same for a period and treated the same and the best sheep come to the top at the end. i couldnt see to many of the suffolk and texel men trying this system as this would show up the big feeders in a poor light, this systen produces true figures and not stars in the sky like here in ireland. a friend of mine wanted to buy a ram for the stap scheme and asked me to pick from the sale a suitable ram, my reply go out that night and look up into the stars and pick one and he might have as much look as picking one from the book.

ganmo

The low accuracies can only improve with more farmers recording, both commercial and breeders.
The more recording that's done the quicker the people who fudge the numbers get found out.

If picking a ram from numbers is pie in the sky stuff why are there numerous AI companies printing catalogues for dairy and beef bulls?

tabby aspreme

ganmo wrote: »

The low accuracies can only improve with more farmers recording, both commercial and breeders.
The more recording that's done the quicker the people who fudge the numbers get found out.

If picking a ram from numbers is pie in the sky stuff why are there numerous AI companies printing catalogues for dairy and beef bulls?

I think the figures for bulls come from there progeny and not for the bulls themselves

ganmo

Exactly! the accuracy comes from the ram's relations.

Cran

ganmo wrote: »

The low accuracies can only improve with more farmers recording, both commercial and breeders.
The more recording that's done the quicker the people who fudge the numbers get found out.

If picking a ram from numbers is pie in the sky stuff why are there numerous AI companies printing catalogues for dairy and beef bulls?

Exactly, and thats why CPT is so important for Sheep Ireland. They used my highest rating lamb last year for CPT, I'm really looking forward to see what impact it has on his figures and accuracies. Should provide me with really useful information on my current stock ram whom I think is the biz:D

Lano Lynn

thats the stuff cran.hope he hits the spot.
CPT is the best way to expose the cheats.
If pedigree breeders are intrested in productive genetic improvement i'm sure we will see a significant increase in the use of the top PROVEN sires comming out of CPT;)

grassroot1

I doubt the top proven sires from CPT will be used by a lot of breeders as there is still a lot of the (nice heads short wool show prize winner) brigade out there. What might happen in future is there may be two types of breeder one for show types and a second type breeding for commercial farmers based on SI figures, heres hoping

Lano Lynn

grassroot1 wrote: »

I doubt the top proven sires from CPT will be used by a lot of breeders as there is still a lot of the (nice heads short wool show prize winner) brigade out there. What might happen in future is there may be two types of breeder one for show types and a second type breeding for commercial farmers based on SI figures, heres hoping

100% agree,It is a terrible waste,are the cpt rams available for AI?

there is a cohort of pedigree breeders in the uk that have turned their back on the show ring puffballs.and commercial farmers ARE supporting them.
I would be most familliar with the texel lines but there are significant suffolk and charollais as well (there are not very many vendeen in the uk)
It is really remarkable the progress that has been made and the accuracies are very high.
http://www.signetfbc.co.uk/documents/content/sheepbreeder/texel_101013_srs02_ix_-_with_rear_type_oct_13.pdf

within the texels the highest EBV at the moment is Avon vale real deal has rizen to 500 (muscle ebv of 6.01mm)


basco chart for real deal

Glenside Razzle Dazzle a ram featurlng extensively in the Uk and Irish pedigrees has an ebv of 304 and falling!(muscle ebv of 1.48)

basco chart for razzle dazzle


not one of razzle dazzles lambs or any of his sons feature in the top 10% of lambs in the Uk yet I saw several grandsons with EBVs in the top 5% in Ireland(accuraccies very low)and usually ET lambs (something well wrong in the algorithim)?

ebvs are not perfect or a gaurantee but they have worked for pigs,poultry,dairy and beef they have even worked for sheep in NZ and I would put more Faith in them than 'some nob paid 40,000 gns for the father of that lamb' .Kepak does not quote for nice heads they pay per kg.

ultimatly they depend on the honesty of the pedigree breeder and then for the commercial buyers paying a good price for good genuine sheep

Wooly Admirer

That Avon Vale ram has some figures alright - 97% accuracy!!! He must have 1000's of progeny. Was he through their CPT?

Cran

Lano Lynn wrote: »

are the cpt rams available for AI?

Don't think so, I was told originally they had straws for me but then got a letter saying none available. Asked them why at a presentation and they said the other charollais lamb they had wouldn't jump for collection so used the remaining straws off mine. Rancher might know bit more if normally get straws

The figures you provided make really interesting reading, must look at some so called top Charollais Rams on Basco and compare them

rancher

Cran wrote: »

Don't think so, I was told originally they had straws for me but then got a letter saying none available. Asked them why at a presentation and they said the other charollais lamb they had wouldn't jump for collection so used the remaining straws off mine. Rancher might know bit more if normally get straws

The figures you provided make really interesting reading, must look at some so called top Charollais Rams on Basco and compare them

The deal is for allowing to have your ram used you are entitled to 50 doses (25 straws)Its actually in the contract that you signed.
Happened to us last year the same as you and when we insisted, they let us bring him back 2 weeks later, however he was getting shook and he's in the top 1% of the breed. Luckily enough as he was infertile this year.
Its nice to have the semen, but if you have an exceptional ram he'll be in every pedigree flock in a short while, so you could be waiting ten years to introduce him again

rancher

grassroot1 wrote: »

I doubt the top proven sires from CPT will be used by a lot of breeders as there is still a lot of the (nice heads short wool show prize winner) brigade out there. What might happen in future is there may be two types of breeder one for show types and a second type breeding for commercial farmers based on SI figures, heres hoping

You can do both, nice heads leads to easy lambing, good wool, good meat they say and nice muscle on the rear end and eye muscle is required by the factory. We have 5 stars that win in the show ring. Lambplus have no regard for conformation, so you can have an O grade 5 star ram if you like but I challenge you to sell him to a discerning farmer.

Lano Lynn

rancher wrote: »

You can do both, nice heads leads to easy lambing, good wool, good meat they say and nice muscle on the rear end and eye muscle is required by the factory. We have 5 stars that win in the show ring. Lambplus have no regard for conformation, so you can have an O grade 5 star ram if you like but I challenge you to sell him to a discerning farmer.

agreed ,There are plenty 5 star rams that should have had their throats cut.

there are some breeds whose leading lights think a big brute head is more important than any sort of a backend:(.Some sales there are feck all even for the undicerning farmer!

sheeper

A big backend is not something I would consider, breeding for a much longer sheep with a ok back end is a better option in my view
As for SI I am afraid I would have to agree with the original post and that is before we take in ETs an etc
There is no way those figures are reliable and it's nothing but a total waste of money
If you want to improve the sheep sector pay a petter price for the better carcass, farmer will soon learn

Wooly Admirer

sheeper wrote: »

A big backend is not something I would consider, breeding for a much longer sheep with a ok back end is a better option in my view
As for SI I am afraid I would have to agree with the original post and that is before we take in ETs an etc
There is no way those figures are reliable and it's nothing but a total waste of money
If you want to improve the sheep sector pay a petter price for the better carcass, farmer will soon learn

And we wonder why there's been damn all progress in this industry since records began!!! We need to get a few dairy/poultry/pig farmers involved in sheep production - I think they'd have a different opinion.

Lano Lynn

sheeper and wooly you are both right
100% agree we need longer sheep,
lenght weighs and a good long ewe can carry a huge set of twins that would blow the arse out of a short ewe.
the processors have never given an adequate bonus for the 'quality'high conformation lambs verses the costs involved in producing them
so you are better off producing maxium deadweight of R grade conformation at as low a cost and with as little hastle as possible.

the exact same debate was happening 20 years ago we were being told the french market demanded better conformation lambs.I visited a french processing plant, a delivery of over 400 live lambs arrived from germany,(I was quietly told they probably originated in east germany)
the manager was delighted with the load they were clean,healthy,
within the weight and conformation range,
but he stressed they are all the same..18-20kg R grade!

that said conformation of terminal sire breeds has gone to hell there were feck all U grade texels in blessington this past two years let alone and E grade.
If the same effort was put into the back end as is put into breeding big heads be it texels or suffolks it would be something.
Charollais for some reason seem to be able to breed good ends and lenght AND a small head .

rancher

Lano Lynn wrote: »

sheeper and wooly you are both right
100% agree we need longer sheep,
lenght weighs and a good long ewe can carry a huge set of twins that would blow the arse out of a short ewe.
the processors have never given an adequate bonus for the 'quality'high conformation lambs verses the costs involved in producing them
so you are better off producing maxium deadweight of R grade conformation at as low a cost and with as little hastle as possible.

the exact same debate was happening 20 years ago we were being told the french market demanded better conformation lambs.I visited a french processing plant, a delivery of over 400 live lambs arrived from germany,(I was quietly told they probably originated in east germany)
the manager was delighted with the load they were clean,healthy,
within the weight and conformation range,
but he stressed they are all the same..18-20kg R grade!

that said conformation of terminal sire breeds has gone to hell there were feck all U grade texels in blessington this past two years let alone and E grade.
If the same effort was put into the back end as is put into breeding big heads be it texels or suffolks it would be something.
Charollais for some reason seem to be able to breed good ends and lenght AND a small head .

So do vendeen, !!!!!!
Was talking to a buyer in france also and he was saying that the ideal lamb for him was an R3/4, so I said ...suits me.

Lano Lynn

jez rancher ya just couldn't help yerself,I knew you would rize to the bait as soon as I pressed submit....

grassroot1

The breeders in the uk have found that following signet is not a good idea if what you are selecting for is a long big sheep (needs to be a lot heavier to get a cover to slaughter)

A nice head on a Suffolk would probally have to be big and broad and as for tight wool too little is a bigger problem on newborn Charollais lambs.

ET lambs do not figure under SI until Weaning

High accuracy figures are more important than high star values in buying a ram.

rancher

Lano Lynn wrote: »

jez rancher ya just couldn't help yerself,I knew you would rize to the bait as soon as I pressed submit....

Have to fly the ould flag you know...coming near the breeding season and all that.

Lano Lynn

grassroot1 wrote: »

The breeders in the uk have found that following signet is not a good idea if what you are selecting for is a long big sheep (needs to be a lot heavier to get a cover to slaughter)

A nice head on a Suffolk would probally have to be big and broad and as for tight wool too little is a bigger problem on newborn Charollais lambs.

ET lambs do not figure under SI until Weaning

High accuracy figures are more important than high star values in buying a ram.

the uk breeders have the option to choose positive fat ebv ,many grass based breeders actively do this,and I agree with them.
SI do not provide this option.
I want to go to a sale see the scan muscle&fat depth for ALL the lambs in the flock and make up my own mind how to balance out the requirements of my flock.

'nice' is entirely subjective,when nice=making commercial breeders life harder then nice = stupid. flocks like suffolk breeders sandyknowe,logie durno,drinkstone & hansto name a few all breed smaller heads on high ebv sheep to supply the commercial trade to breed lambs that finish off GRASS.

never said charollais couldn't do with more birth coat,which is why I switiched to vendeen,(but if we keep talking up vendeens me n ranger are not going to be able to afford rams next year:D)

100% agree accuracy is vital,a 3 star ram with high accuracies from an honest breeder can be way ahead of a 5 star with low accuracies from a con man/woman
(see accuracies on previous post with real deal/razzle dazzle which can be repeated for most breeds)

Fed up listening to 'thats a breeders sheep' crap.
If you are a pedigree breeder are you finding it getting easier to sell rams ?are you seeing customers pass by and buying 'off the rail'

sheeper

Well maybe the answer is more stars for the reliability of the breeders reliability lol

Sheep breeder

i have said all a long that the stars are not accurate and are not played out on a level pitch and it wont be too long till they try change the formula to make it look better, it the uk a number of years back there systems was worked on taking back fat off and giving a higher percent in the total for this one thing and was actually higher than muscle gain in the final equation and resulted in breeding sheep that were to lean and hard to finish and to change away from this.
a good example of figures gone wrong was when icbf come up with star rating. the charolais bull cf52 had one of the worst figures for muscle in the char breed at the start and he a muscle maker and with serious numbers of calves on the ground and some of the young test bulls with higher star ratings with very little on the ground, the changed the formula and cf52 went straight to the top where he should have being from the start as he was a serious breeder,
the other thing that has not being mentioned here is the rams sold by the ram dealers a lot are half breds fed to the last and turned out to the last to put many a pedigree sheep to show and no talk of what stars these produce and the numbers of these sold every season.

Wooly Admirer

Sheep breeder wrote: »

a good example of figures gone wrong was when icbf come up with star rating. the charolais bull cf52 had one of the worst figures for muscle in the char breed at the start and he a muscle maker and with serious numbers of calves on the ground and some of the young test bulls with higher star ratings with very little on the ground, the changed the formula and cf52 went straight to the top where he should have being from the start as he was a serious breeder,

CF52 - 9.8% Calving difficulty. Without ICBF how would farmers know this? CF52 might be a 'serious breeder', but there's many a cow never bred anything again after this fella. There's more to breeding than a big arse. The output from our suckler industry is where it is due to lads getting distracted by these big arses and forgetting about getting a calf out of their cows every 365 days. How is a farmer going to predict the maternal ability of a bull by looking at a picture of him in an AI catalogue???

Sheep breeder wrote: »

the other thing that has not being mentioned here is the rams sold by the ram dealers a lot are half breds fed to the last and turned out to the last to put many a pedigree sheep to show and no talk of what stars these produce and the numbers of these sold every season.

Cross bred animals benefit from hybrid vigor. The first cross will give the biggest benefit, every cross after this and your loosing the benefit. I think there is merits to using crossed rams, but I would rather know something about the sheep that were crossed. When you are buying from a Pedigree breeder at least there has been some level of quality control down through the years - when buying from these 'ram dealers' you could be buying in alot of things you can't see..

In the UK there are alot of prominant breeders providing these rams to farmers, but with good information behind them. Societies should do the same here, otherwise the 'ram dealers' will continue to flourish!!

sheeper

9.8 % so that means only 9.8 calves in 100 out of 52 are hard calved ? Lol I think that stat explains a lot on the reliability front of icbf info

As for the big end theory , the farmer is being brain washed into trying to breed the 1000 euro weanling for export . It doesn't seem to matter to him about the 2/3 dead ones

any how this post is RE sheep but the moral of the story is the same

Wooly Admirer

sheeper wrote: »

9.8 % so that means only 9.8 calves in 100 out of 52 are hard calved ? Lol I think that stat explains a lot on the reliability front of icbf info

The calving difficulty represents serious difficulties (scores of 3 & 4). This means these cases required assistance otherwise she would have stayed there!!! This assistance requires your time, maybe a vets time, maybe a dead calf, maybe a cow down for 2 months, maybe a dead cow, plenty of nice expensive medicines, a cow not going back in calf as quick as she should, etc, etc, etc. Many suckler farmers are part time - if 1 in 10 cows are guaranteed to be in-trouble when you come home, i think that's alot!

CF52's calving difficulty isn't the question - its having the info. I'd rather have it than not....same with rams...

Cran

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

CF52's calving difficulty isn't the question - its having the info. I'd rather have it than not....same with rams...

I think this is the crux of it really. Before looking at a rams figures or even the ram themselves you should trust the person your buying off. Once that trust or belief in what the breeder is doing is in place, then stars are just another tool in picking the ram you need.

Putting it another way, if the stars were 100% correct and provided all the information needed to pick a ram. An overfeed pampered ram will still be an overfeed pampered ram......

sheeper

Ok so the whole thing is based on trust . I don't know how many time I have heard it said at a sale "and he's just on grass" or " he's only eating a half pound of meal a day" and the poor animal busting with condition. It really would not inspire me at all
I can see the merit on the cpt scheme and how it works !!! but getting breeders to record lambing difficult, weight gain etc when it is going to influence the end price for the animal it just not logical.
Sure lets just ask office workers to record how many hours they work and fill it in and we will pay them based on the info they put down ! Same thing

AnFeirmeoir

sheeper wrote: »

Ok so the whole thing is based on trust . I don't know how many time I have heard it said at a sale "and he's just on grass" or " he's only eating a half pound of meal a day" and the poor animal busting with condition. It really would not inspire me at all
I can see the merit on the cpt scheme and how it works !!! but getting breeders to record lambing difficult, weight gain etc when it is going to influence the end price for the animal it just not logical.
Sure lets just ask office workers to record how many hours they work and fill it in and we will pay them based on the info they put down ! Same thing

I agree. trust shouldnt have to come into it when deaing with pedigree breeders. These figures should be so scrutinized and inspected that they speak for themselves.
I dont know what inspections are or are not done, but a lot here seem to think theres not enough.

If i have to go with trust, i'd go with a neighbours ram.
I do buy from pedigree sales. I think (hope) the figures have some basis to them. Currently i think acc % of between 15% and 30% is considered satisfactory for maternal traits. This is pretty patethic but hopefullly it will improve with time.

grassroot1

SI are running inspections this year, accuracy% will only rise over time, more records equals better accuracy and CPT will also help. We also have to accept that almost every suckler calf born is recorded but not every lamb the commercial flocks and factories have a part to play here if possible

Lano Lynn

greater use of cpt to proof sires and then for pedigree breeders to use the top preformers.
the maternal index has no credibility with the level of intervention from sponging to ai to et to subjectivity .
the concept is not wrong ,any flock master that ignores the funcionality of their females is only fooling themselves and doing their customers a disservice.

grassroot1

I don't see the relevance of the use of sponging or ai being a negative with regard to maternal traits. Sponging just advances the breeding season and AI usage means the better rams can be used over a larger number of ewes
Maternal traits the only traits that are required in a breeding ewe are the ability to go in lamb and lamb unassisted outdoors if possible and to have sufficient milk supply to rear 2 lambs to 30 to 35 kilos at 12 weeks off grass alone. that's really all she has to do.

sheeper

Will the inspection increase the % reliability ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Lano Lynn wrote: »

My imaginary pedigree ewes have finished lambing about a fortnight ago so I can register them as being born 1 feb:D.

The average birth weight was 5kg but I’ll say they were 3kg.
there are 15 lambs from 10 ewes but I will notify SI as having 20

I have 5 that don’t come up to my high standards so I will cull them off;).

had to handle 4 ewes and ceasarian on one but I had no difficult lambings .


How may 5 stars can I expect and should there be an ‘estimated honesty value ‘:eek:........acc0%!!!!:rolleyes:may be should do a poll on this?



(how many different smilies can you fit in your replies):cool:

Theer already is a Stars in Their Eyes for sheep - it;s called Stars In Their Eyes... :cool::P:pac:

sheeper

I wonder what the heaviest lamb not born is at this stage

sheepmad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8rNYXeHnDA

Lano Lynn

not doing as well as they should weather not helpin but sure what does it matter they have great heads:rolleyes: