Chargeback PTSB

Codrut

Hello,

I am currently having some issues, and I apologize if I've posted in the incorrect sub-forum, but I believe that I am a victim of identity fraud, and due to this a victim of debit card fraud.

I noticed last night that around 2300 euros from my debit card account have been used on Ladbrokes casino, and I do not have an account opened with them. I had about 1 month ago some issues with my William Hill account, when it had been hacked resulting in a loss of over 10000 euros. Since nobody wanted to help me with that issue, I started the new year on a clean sheet, and stopped pursuing the bank for my funds, but this month noticing the fact that 2300 euros have been lost and another around 850 euros last week just made me loose my cool and I will be pursuing to get back this amount.

Before New Years due to the William Hill issue I requested to have my card cancelled, and nothing was done with this even though I was told on the phone that the card was cancelled, so I was stuck with the same card. Not having any issues a period of time, I stopped worrying, and for about 2 weeks I did not even check my Open24 online account because I did not have the password, needed to have it reset but I was too busy to call them, so I did not notice any actions on the account. I sometimes called in to inquire about the available funds, but the robot was telling me the total balance first, and then the available funds, so usually I listened only to the first part.

I called in to Ladbrokes customer service, and they told me that indeed the information on the created account has my name and my details, but I was advised by them to contact the bank for a chargeback. Also the Gardai informed me basically that these situations are hard to resolve, but I can file a complaint with them, but the chances are slim to catch somebody. I tracked down other transactions that I did not recognize, still no card present transactions, and I was able to find out that the IP is from a mobile network, a Three network IP, so it could easily be somebody here in Ireland, even though I know that Three is in other countries as well ( could not get more information due to security reasons and confidentiality laws ).

The Gardai even said that this may be related to the William Hill issue when the account got hacked, and that was the moment in which a person got all my information and started using them, but since the bank declined performing a chargeback when the William Hill issue occurred, I am honestly afraid that they will decline once more and leave me without my funds.

What would be a next step to take if the bank will not help me and the Gardai said that the chances are slim ? I am honestly feed up with this bank and I am thinking of changing banks, but now my mind is only on my money. Do you have any suggestions or experiences you could share ?


P.S : forgot to add that the details that are on the Ladbrokes account are my old details, I changed my address 1 month ago, because I moved from a hostle I used to live in, and the account has my old yahoo e-mail address which I do not use since January because Yahoo was attacked by hackers and account details have been stolen, and also Ladbrokes representatives have stated that there are 2 accounts under my name, one opened on the 10th or 11th of January and one on 13, kind of weird since I knew that all bookies allow only one.
Thanks !

Codrut

Well I was really expecting for at least one reply, but maybe everybody else was luckier than me, so you've never had these types of issues.

If no one has ever had these types of issues, maybe you can provide an advise or something or explain me what other steps can I take in case of the worst case scenario.

Thank you !

BuffyBot

You given it all of two hours, on the quietest day of the week to post a complex and convuluted question (which after two reads even I'm stilly muddy on). I'm not sure what you expect. To paraphrase Dr McCoy, dammit Jim, this is a message board not a 24 hour party line.

Codrut

You're right BuffyBot, it is indeed a complex situation and it is Sunday. To sum everything up and maybe make the situation more clear to everybody, I got an account hacked, personal information was taken, money was taken but nobody helped, and now an account was opened under my details with money taken once more, and I am afraid that PTSB will not help this time just like they did the first time.

So given the situation, I would like to know if possible, what could I do if PTSB does not help.

Cheers!

sawdoubters

call the bank first cancel everything

http://www.safecard.ie/cardholders/frequently-asked-questions/

http://www.consumerhelp.ie/scams

don't do any banking from your computer

check computer for virus

Codrut

Thanks for the links Sawdoubters !

I called in to cancel my card, but they blocked only online usage until I can get in the bank tomorrow, maybe to verify if the card has also been cloned ( anyway I got 20 cents left, so nothing they can do there ).

I locked away the laptop and I'm using my work computer, since it is fully secured, and I'll get my laptop to the IT guys at work, wasn't really thinking that it could have been a virus in the computer, so cheers for the idea.

Thanks a million.

Also do you guys think that the bank would be able to go ahead with a chargeback ? I spoke to Ladbrokes and after informing them that I spoke with the Gardai they are the ones that suggested to ask my bank for a chargeback.

killbillvol2

Just to clarify, you lost €10,000 to a fraudulent transaction and the bank took no action and you're still using the same card and account?

wmpdd3

Have you filled out the sheet to reclaim your money, is the bank saying they do not believe you?

Either they confirm the fraud and you get them money back or they think you did it.

Sorry but it much be that simple.

Codrut

Yes that is correct. I had the first issue just before X-mas, and the bank said that there is nothing that they can do since according to them I am liable. I spoke on the phone with a representative and I was informed that " I am currently cancelling the card in the system ", but I found out later that nothing was done. Called in about this and was informed that they can cancel the card over the phone, the balance was 0 and I was getting ready to leave for the holidays and while on holidays use another card issued in another country, so I told them that I will call back after I return.

After returning received money on the PTSB account, and no issues occurred, and because I wanted to make some purchases in a local Spar asked PTSB to take the flag off the account, and they did that, that was around the 10th of January. Asked PTSB then to cancel again the card and issue another one, but it was too late apparently since according to my online statement the first money used fraudulently was on the 11th of January.

To keep things short, and sorry for my long posts but I'm trying to explain the best way I can, made 2 request to cancel the card, and it was never done.


@wmpdd3 - I will fill in that form tomorrow, since they can not do anything over the phone or online. To my surprise as stated in the previous post, the merchant is the one that suggested I do a chargeback, so it would be a huge surprise for my bank to say its my fault and for the merchant to be cooperative in providing solutions

killbillvol2

Something doesn't add up here. A fraudulent transaction should be refunded after you declare it to be fraudulent and the bank accepts that. You should have been issued with a letter to have signed at a garda station.

The first thing the bank should do is cancel the card. I recently had an issue and the bank had cancelled the card even before they rang me about it.

Your own inaction is also baffling to be honest.

Codrut

What else could I have done when as stated I have asked the bank to cancel the card ?

I have done this over the phone, and once I was even informed that it was cancelled, but surprise it was not. The first time this happened the bank stated that they do not consider the transactions as being fraudulent because I used to do online transaction with William Hill before. I believe that I spoke with bank reps over 2-3 hours a day on the phone, and it was just before X-mas, so I just did not have the patience anymore to deal with them, so the bank did not accept it as being fraudulent.

For the issue that has occurred now if they will not accept the chargeback request, as advised even by the merchant, I will add to my Gardai complain that the bank is not assisting me.

So from what I am understanding before speaking with the bank regarding a chargeback I should request a letter from the Gardai ? I have the contact details for the police woman that took my complain and my details.

killbillvol2

The bank should have issued you with a letter regarding the alleged fraud which you have signed by the gardai.

As to cancelling your card, you knew it wasn't cancelled because you asked to have the flag taken off the account and used the card in January.

Codrut

Thanks for the reply.

When I called in for some information and I requested for the flag to be taken off, that is when I noticed that it had not been cancelled. I even logged over the phone a complaint regarding the fact that I had been informed that my card had not been cancelled, I am sorry that my posts may be a little bit hard to understand, but I am still in the process of learning English better.

To reply to your post better, I can say that after the first issue occurred I called in to cancel the card, they said that it had been cancelled and I said over the phone ( I am sure that they have a recording ) that I will go in a branch to get a new card issued, so I declined to have it issued over the phone. I kept the card in my wallet and when I came back to the country I received some funds so I wanted to make a purchase in a local Spar, or Costcutter ( one of these 2 ). I called in to Open24 to inquire how I can get funds, since I had some knowledge about a scheme through which you can get a text to get money from an ATM from your account, and a guy from the bank told me that the card has only a flag, watch set on it, so it was not cancelled, so I requested for it to be taken off. After making the purchase, since it was after bank closing time I called in to request to have the card cancelled, this being the 2nd time I had called in regarding that.
I tried logging in to Open24 to verify if I can get a new card issued online without having to stay on the phone, since I was working almost 12 hours a day, but I had forgotten the password so the account got blocked. This past Thursday I just called in to have the password reset, knowing that I may receive some funds from work, and I could check in real time when I receive them.

Sorry again for the long post, but does anyone know what is usually the time-frame for Irish banks to solve these types of issues ? From what I understand from Visa Operating Regulations, they should provide the credit on the account even while they do their investigations.

Visa International Operating Regulations
Chapter 9: Dispute Resolution >
Chargebacks and Representments
710
VISA PUBLIC
15 October 2013
© 2013 Visa. All Rights Reserved.
An Issuer must credit its Cardholder's account for the amount in dispute, whether or not a
Chargeback was initiated, if the dispute involves an Electronic Commerce Transaction and the
conditions are met for any of the following Chargebacks:
•
Reason Code 30, "Services Not Provided or Merchandise Not Received"
•
Reason Code 41, "Cancelled Recurring Transaction"
•
Reason Code 53, "Not as Described or Defective Merchandise"
•
Reason Code 83, "Fraud-Card-Absent Environment"
•
Reason Code 85, "Credit Not Processed"
The Issuer must not be reimbursed twice for the same Transaction.

All replys are appreciated since I am new to the way business is done in Ireland when it comes to banks and I really do thank you all for your help ( if I get the money back, all the users that replied to this thread with advice have a beer on me ). Cheers !

killbillvol2

The bank would seem to have been completely at fault here as they should have cancelled the card when there was any question of fraudulent activity. This is standard procedure.

You need to escalate this and deal with a supervisor/manager at the bank as soon as possible.

3DataModem

Just FYI OP, Ladbrokes get literally 100's of online gamblers each week who email them to say that someone hacked their account and gambled and lost.

When you initiate a chargeback denying you made the transaction, your bank will contact the card processor, who will notify Ladbrokes. Ladbrokes will then supply the processor a dossier of information including login times, IP addresses, and a bunch of other information.

There's a whole team in Ladbrokes who deal exclusively with claims of this type.

Do you believe someone used your personal information, PLUS your card details (including 3-digit code) and made and account purely to have a bit of fun at your expense? For every real person this happens to there are about 250 who claim this has happened fraudulently.,

Get your bank to dispute the transaction.

Codrut

I would be very happy to receive such information, like the IP, since I myself have requested such information but was not provided with much due to privacy laws. I would also like to receive information of any nature, since in case the bank would not assist, I would honestly just hire a private investigator to get to the bottom of this.

I will also provide my bank with information that I was able to obtain from Ladbrokes reps, information such as login times, login dates,games played.

What I have so far is : 2 accounts created under the same name, e-mail address ( could you please explain how would a bookmaker allow this , as I know that this is against the T&C's usually so they should have requested something to verify identity ), got some technical information, and from what I understood the transactions were made this on the 1st of February and on the 13th of February ( or 11th, forgot the exact first date ), e-mail on the account is an old yahoo e-mail address ( that I have not used anymore due to spam and due to the fact that yahoo had been hacked recently and users got a virus in their systems that would extract data from an ad that was running on the yahoo page ), address on the account is an address of a hostle in which I used to live, but have not lived there for a month, month and a half, the security question "Mothers maiden name" is incorrect, it is not my mothers maiden name ( I even tested the call center guy in order to make him tell me what is the answer in their system ), my name is not written correctly as in my ID ( for all accounts and all documentation I write my name exactly as in my ID just to be safe, "First Name-Middle Name Last Name", as supposed to First Name (space) Middle Name (space) Last Name" ), and I am dissapointed that the 3D Secure password is not required, got this information from a Ladbrokes store rep ( not sure if it is accurate, maybe you can flash some light on this ).

I told the Gardai about my over the phone discussion with Ladbrokes, and about the William Hill situation, and as the Gardai told me it is not a debit card fraud situation, but a case of stolen identity. I thought about the fact that the person who did this would not be that smart to have fun with my money and just basically loose it, and the Gardai told me that if indeed this would be a case of stolen identity, they could just withdraw the money using a method ( do not know how and what method ) since they had my private information and they could say they are me.

I do not know how bookies do business, but I really do think that they should request some documentation upon depositing ( like ID, passport or something ). Thanks for the info !

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

3DataModem

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wholeheartedly agree. I work in this business, and most people who claim the above are lying due to a case of buyers remorse, or we're free rolling the gambling site (keep it if you win, chargeback if you lose).

So OP, you need to set yourself apart from the very convincing herd. Bear in mind that William Hill and Ladbrokes are likely to use the same card processors and fraud screening services.

Codrut

I have my experiences with online gambling as witness that I am not free rolling, or have buyers remorse. I have not made any such requests with websites which I myself use and/or have used, such as bwin or paddypower ( I do not want to advertise them, so please do not consider it an advertisement ). You are having very realistic views, and it is sad that due to people described by you, everybody is viewed as the villein when lodging real complaints.

Nonoperational

You had 10k stolen from you, you knew the card wasn't cancelled, and you just left if go and started the new year and assumed it would be fine?

Sorry if I'm doing you a disservice, but that's one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard in my life. If that's the truth, TSB might have a recording of the call where you asked for the card to be cancelled. To be honest if you phone to cancel a card they do it instantly. It's in their interest to do it.

What a sequence of events.

Codrut

Finally got the card cancelled, spoke with the Gardai today again since I just got the letter from Permanent yesterday, and I saw it when I got back from work. Kudos to the Gardai, very nice and helpful people and very professional.

Thanks for all your helpful posts, and it is my pleasure to answer to all of you, since this is a very helpful discussion, so it is not a disservice.

The answer to your statement Nonoperational is that they should have a recording from when I requested for the card to be cancelled in a 2-3 days interval, after having lost the 10k. Regarding that particular situation I remembered that they should even have 2 recordings of me requesting to have the card cancelled, one just when noticing the issue, when the rep from fraud said that it would be better to have a flag on the account, and another time when discussing with somebody from Open24 after being called back by him. I was stated that the card was cancelled, and I was asked if I want to order another one over the phone, and I said that no, since I will be going in a branch when I have time to get a new card. I am not blaming PTSB for this, since my English is not perfect, so the rep may have understood that I will be going into the branch to take care of everything.

Very strange situation indeed, and I wish that this never happens to anybody. I am happy that I was although able to pay bills/rent and other expenses.

Cheers.

Nonoperational

I hope you get sorted man.

smemon

The fact you're not battering down doors and demanding to talk to management figures makes you instantly suspicious imo...

This is over €10k of stolen cash from a personal account we're talking about... not a few hundred quid (and even that would get most people very angry). You don't simply forget about €10k or 'give up' chasing someone who's responsibility it is to mind that money for you.

If you've had that money stolen, why haven't you pursued it more aggressively? i.e. contacting a solicitor, giving them full account details of all transactions over the past 12 months and starting to build a case against the bank / ladbrokes / everyone in a bid to (a) get your money back (b) prove your innocence.

Finally, if a credit card provider allows thousands of €€€€ to be transferred to a gambling website without calling you up to verify it, that would suggest to me that those types of transactions are not unusual on your account. If that is indeed the case, then you're gonna have a very hard time proving your innocence.

Codrut

I did not have 12 months of transactions on my account, it was my first month of having an Irish bank account when the issue with the 10k occurred. The issue was not with ladbrokes but with another website then, and it was made perfectly clear to me that the funds will not be recovered after speaking several times with customer support ( permanent and also the merchant ).

I requested to speak with a supervisor/upper management but I was informed that they were busy and could not do anything to assist. This was the answer I received in the branch as well. I have some health issues and after being stressed out by the whole thing things did not go better, so I decided to just calm down ( health is more important than money ).

And to answer your remark, yes, I have had several transactions with bookies online, amounts that never went above 600 euros, but this was more due to purchase/receive different products ( especially from Bwin, where I got my iPhone from after betting 200 euros ).

Ace2007

Codrut wrote: »

I noticed last night that around 2300 euros from my debit card account have been used on Ladbrokes casino, and I do not have an account opened with them. I had about 1 month ago some issues with my William Hill account, when it had been hacked resulting in a loss of over 10000 euros. Since nobody wanted to help me with that issue, I started the new year on a clean sheet, and stopped pursuing the bank for my funds

Your WH account was hacked and 10k taken, this would have nothing to do with your bank so why bring it up?