Longevity / replacement rate

Conmaicne Mara

Another chat I was having with the same guy Again, relating to hill sheep.

Until I get my flock register back from the nice people in the Department I can't remember off the top of my head how old my oldest ewe is. I don't really have a replacement age as such. 6 years old floats around in my head from time to time.

Generally a full set of correctly positioned dentures are the first thing I look at, then the milk jugs, then body condition. A ewe here has to be fit to go to the hill when it's time to go, otherwise she is a passenger and a drag on the farm.

So is breeding for longevity, that is slowing the rate of replacements, while producing a good lamb, as straight forward as that? Over the lifetime of the flock there would be less interruption in lamb production, and hopefully more profit, opposed to more often keeping empty ewe lambs over the Winter. (we will leave out the tipped ewe lambs for the time being).

But when does a ewe go past her sell by date, do we need to reach the point where she has a bad lamb to give her road? Or is there a way to predict this before it happens?

I am trying to project into the future, keep the ewe as long as possible, but not that long that she produces a dud lamb. Having my cake and eating it would be another way of putting it.

Thoughts?

Green farmer

That's a tough question to answer. Some people get rid of the ewe no matter what after 5 years. For me, Mostly the decision to cull is out of my hands. What I mean by that is lump udders, bad feet that cannt be fixed, broken mouth etc, failure to regain condition pre tupping, or bad behaviour means the decision is made for me.

Quiet often the older girls once in good condition, are often the best at raising lambs. I have one ewe in my flock about 8 -9 years old and I'd consider her my best ewe.
They also say that the bigger the flock, the higher the turnover rate is.

Conmaicne Mara

Replacement selection from older ewes still producing good lambs must have a part to play in it as well. Actually that's the reason I kept one ewe this year that has lost a tooth, fox killed her twins last year, but she had two monsters of lambs. I want a ewe lamb out of that ewe.

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Replacement selection from older ewes still producing good lambs must have a part to play in it as well. Actually that's the reason I kept one ewe this year that has lost a tooth, fox killed her twins last year, but she had two monsters of lambs. I want a ewe lamb out of that ewe.

I've been trying to get a replacement out of my favourite ewe, thing is she keeps having twin ram lambs

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

I've been trying to get a replacement out of my favourite ewe, thing is she keeps having twin ram lambs

That sounds about right

Green farmer

I saw a documentary before, and the guy said a lot of farmers make the mistake of going off and culling a thin ewe at weaning time. He reckoned that these can often be your best ewes!!! Which would you prefer, a thin ewe who put everything her body could give to, raise twin fat lambs, and now looks crap after doing so, or the lazy fat ewe who wasn't half as good mother, but looks in great condition, with one or two runts of lambs produced.... Make you think !!!!!

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

I saw a documentary before, and the guy said a lot of farmers make the mistake of going off and culling a thin ewe at weaning time. He reckoned that these can often be your best ewes!!! Which would you prefer, a thin ewe who put everything her body could give to, raise twin fat lambs, and now looks crap after doing so, or the lazy fat ewe who wasn't half as good mother, but looks in great condition, with one or two runts of lambs produced.... Make you think !!!!!

I have and had ewes like that. Two giants of lambs and she'd be like she was a famine victim (without getting hardship), just threw everything at the lambs.

I weigh now so priority at the moment is removing poor doers, but other traits are quickly entering the mix.

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

I've been trying to get a replacement out of my favourite ewe, thing is she keeps having twin ram lambs

you would retain her daughter why not keep a son?

Green farmer

Lano Lynn wrote: »

you would retain her daughter why not keep a son?

I never really thought about it. She's cross breed Lanark/Suffolk. I put her to texel, so ewe lambs should be ok, but to get a breeding ram ??? I'm not sure what I'll get.

foxylock

I have a texel ewe that strayed into the farm about twelve years ago has twins every year and are always the first lambs sold, scanned with twins again this year although the mouth is broken I keep her in a shelterd paddock for the winter and feed her well. Since I took over I have kept all her ewe lambs and they are consistently having twins as well, if only I had a field of em................

I have a book called " Sheep ailments recognition and treatment" by Eddie Straiton, in it he asks a friend the question " How long should a sheep be kept?" The reply he got was until they're at least three days dead!! And then goes on to tell us about his ewe aged 27 who was culled only because she required a caesarean!! I thought my lady was ancient ...... But as a general rule I would'nt keep anything much older than 6, they get a bit of hardship on the hill here.

Conmaicne Mara

foxylock wrote: »

I have a texel ewe that strayed into the farm about twelve years ago has twins every year and are always the first lambs sold, scanned with twins again this year although the mouth is broken I keep her in a shelterd paddock for the winter and feed her well. Since I took over I have kept all her ewe lambs and they are consistently having twins as well, if only I had a field of em................

I have a book called " Sheep ailments recognition and treatment" by Eddie Straiton, in it he asks a friend the question " How long should a sheep be kept?" The reply he got was until they're at least three days dead!! And then goes on to tell us about his ewe aged 27 who was culled only because she required a caesarean!! I thought my lady was ancient ...... But as a general rule I would'nt keep anything much older than 6, they get a bit of hardship on the hill here.

Yes, the hill is an issue. the farmer I was talking to is a hill farmer, to make that clear. How will she do during winter carrying lamb/s. Summer not so bad a situation.

I would be looking at extending the service of the ones which go to the hill routinely.

foxylock

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Yes, the hill is an issue. the farmer I was talking to is a hill farmer, to make that clear. How will she do during winter carrying lamb/s. Summer not so bad a situation.

I would be looking at extending the service of the ones which go to the hill routinely.

Well if you don't breed off ewe lambs coz they're goin to the hill and you cull at year 5 or 6 the productive life of the hill sheep is quite short, and I know lads that won't breed off a ewe until shes two and a half. I can see the sense in it as I had a hogget go down with twin lamb disease today. But it's all about the bottom line these days and lads are keen to push the envelope a bit.

Lano Lynn

Green farmer wrote: »

I never really thought about it. She's cross breed Lanark/Suffolk. I put her to texel, so ewe lambs should be ok, but to get a breeding ram ??? I'm not sure what I'll get.

yep that could get ugly.:eek:

Green farmer

There's a lot to be said for breeding from the old ones, they've side stepped all the pitfalls that have caught the rest out.???? Sure gives their offspring a head start

Lano Lynn

foxylock wrote: »

I have a texel ewe that strayed into the farm about twelve years ago has twins every year and are always the first lambs sold, scanned with twins again this year although the mouth is broken I keep her in a shelterd paddock for the winter and feed her well. Since I took over I have kept all her ewe lambs and they are consistently having twins as well, if only I had a field of em................

shes a diamond do you give her a texel ram?

foxylock

Lano Lynn wrote: »

shes a diamond do you give her a texel ram?

She went to blackface lads the last two years but this year I splashed out on a couple of Texels (goin doin a bit o cross breedin) so am anxiously awaiting her due date and hoping for ewe lambs. ....... Honest to jaysus wasn't as anxious about the birth of my children!!

Green farmer

foxylock wrote: »

She went to blackface lads the last two years but this year I splashed out on a couple of Texels (goin doin a bit o cross breedin) so am anxiously awaiting her due date and hoping for ewe lambs. ....... Honest to jaysus wasn't as anxious about the birth of my children!!

Don't tell the wife that or you'll be sleeping in the sheep shed

foxylock

Fuppin quieter there at the moment.

Lano Lynn

foxylock wrote: »

She went to blackface lads the last two years but this year I splashed out on a couple of Texels (goin doin a bit o cross breedin) so am anxiously awaiting her due date and hoping for ewe lambs. ....... Honest to jaysus wasn't as anxious about the birth of my children!!

If she has ram lamb keep him probably higher genetic merit than most pedigree texels....she is a five star maternal.....

foxylock

Lano Lynn wrote: »

If she has ram lamb keep him probably higher genetic merit than most pedigree texels....she is a five star maternal.....

And the daddy is a five star also so the genetics should be good.

Lano Lynn

"Honest to jaysus wasn't as anxious about the birth of my children!!"

Lano Lynn wrote: »

If she has ram lamb keep him probably higher genetic merit than most pedigree texels....she is a five star maternal.....

'n the sheep is probably good too:);)

MayoAreMagic

Con, longevity would be something I would look for also. People ask when to cull, but if you want longevity then I would say you have to give them the benefit of the doubt to prove that longevity. Personally I wouldnt cull a sheep until she isnt performing any longer. The only exception to that rule was this year, I had a 13 year old ewe that used to fight the dog like like something possessed. I have just bought a young dog so it was one or the other basically.
I would always try to buy rams out of older ewes. Not always easy, but it can be done. That brings longevity.

As regards how to predict when they are past it. Generally I find they will have a lamb that isnt terrible, but isnt as good as in the past. Id take that as a sign. If she was a particularly good one, Id give her another chance. If that fella follows the same trend then she gets the road. However, if there is one that starts going down that has 'served her time' very well, I might keep her anyway and keep breeding her with a bit of tlc, because those are the ones that will give you longevity. Those are also the ones that if I see a good one at a neighbour with a nice ram lamb, I might look to buy her lamb.

mikefoxo

Green farmer wrote: »

I saw a documentary before, and the guy said a lot of farmers make the mistake of going off and culling a thin ewe at weaning time. He reckoned that these can often be your best ewes!!! Which would you prefer, a thin ewe who put everything her body could give to, raise twin fat lambs, and now looks crap after doing so, or the lazy fat ewe who wasn't half as good mother, but looks in great condition, with one or two runts of lambs produced.... Make you think !!!!!

Are you saying then that you should not only take into account the condition of the ewe and its past history, but also the history of its offspring when deciding to cull or not?

Green farmer

mikefoxo wrote: »

Are you saying then that you should not only take into account the condition of the ewe and its past history, but also the history of its offspring when deciding to cull or not?

I'll try to find the YouTube video of the sheep farmer where I heard it and post it here.

Bleating Lamb

mikefoxo wrote: »

Are you saying then that you should not only take into account the condition of the ewe and its past history, but also the history of its offspring when deciding to cull or not?

It's def relevant to monitor quality of lambs been produced,it isn't always the 'best' ewe that produces the goods,once you see lambs produced looking weaker,hungry at weaning time it's time to cull,unless you are hoping for a ewe lamb,would generally cull when teeth get loose,tooth missing here,keep if ewe doing the business and strong,but you often find that the ewe that's getting on does give problems in the spring so culled hard here last year or two and avg age of ewes would only be around 3 now.

grassroot1

New Zealanders work on percentage of body weight weaned by the ewe

Green farmer

Green farmer wrote: »

I saw a documentary before, and the guy said a lot of farmers make the mistake of going off and culling a thin ewe at weaning time. He reckoned that these can often be your best ewes!!! Which would you prefer, a thin ewe who put everything her body could give to, raise twin fat lambs, and now looks crap after doing so, or the lazy fat ewe who wasn't half as good mother, but looks in great condition, with one or two runts of lambs produced.... Make you think !!!!!

For anyone interested and with a bit of time on their hands ,I found that documentary , just type in Patrick smith presentation on YouTube. Sorry I don't know how to copy link up here directly .

jt65

Green farmer wrote: »

For anyone interested and with a bit of time on their hands ,I found that documentary , just type in Patrick smith presentation on YouTube. Sorry I don't know how to copy link up here directly .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzefYCV5f9U

Green farmer

Green farmer wrote: »

For anyone interested and with a bit of time on their hands ,I found that documentary , just type in Patrick smith presentation on YouTube. Sorry I don't know how to copy link up here directly .

If you listen to it from the 32 minute point onward, there's some good info on culling and selection

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

If you listen to it from the 32 minute point onward, there's some good info on culling and selection

Just before 22 mins

Dairy farming is probably an ideal way to get into sheep :pac:

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Just before 22 mins

Dairy farming is probably an ideal way to get into sheep :pac:

I know , the dairy boys secretly would love to be sheep farming:D