To WORM or not?!

aonb

I have a call in the vet, waiting for him to call me back, but I think their surgery closes at 1pm on saturdays, so just thought to run this question by you guys.

Its worming time in my house. EVERYONE has been wormed (though it takes 7 days of worming for the hens). I held off worming my elderly dog (you might remember he had a major illness before xmas - enlarged liver along with his usual gastric issue) - any thoughts on whether a wormer would be a harsh thing to give an elderly terrier with gastric sensitivities?

On the subject of worming - will ALL dogs get worms, if they are not wormed or is there a natural resiliance to worms?

My dogs are country dogs - no longer brought in to town, so are in very little contact with other dogs - would this help prevent them getting worms?

In general, are there any reason NOT to worm?
Is there a natural product (Apple cider vinegar for example) that will work as a wormer?

juniord

http://diatomx.co.uk/ another option

aonb

juniord wrote: »

http://diatomx.co.uk/ another option

I have a tub of Diatomaceous Earth for my hen coops!!!! Never even crossed my mind to use it for Pepper Hmnnn, any ideas how much diatom for a 10kg dog?? Wonder if it would be ok to use for him - gastric wise? Also would it be comprehensive enough to cover all the doggie parasites/worms?

For those of you not familiar with Diatomaceous Earth - its made from fossilized shells :eek: and comes in human and animal quality - its amazing stuff - heres a list of the animal benefits that are listed on the diatom stockists website DIATOMX.CO.UK that Juniord suggested (I buy it from an organic supplies company here in Ireland - quite cheap, and they post it) Check it out!

Benefits for Animals:

• · A natural wormer without the risks associated with strong pesticides.
• · Eliminates a variety of parasites.
• · Rich in minerals that are beneficial for animal’s bodily functions.
• · Helps to rid toxic metal build up from the body.
• · Increases appetite and protein digestion while safeguarding the animal’s stomach.
• · Reduces Odours.
• · Reduces flies and pests.
• · Examples of benefits on specific animals:

thegreatgonzo

aonb wrote: »

- any thoughts on whether a wormer would be a harsh thing to give an elderly terrier with gastric sensitivities?

On the subject of worming - will ALL dogs get worms, if they are not wormed or is there a natural resiliance to worms?

My dogs are country dogs - no longer brought in to town, so are in very little contact with other dogs - would this help prevent them getting worms?

QUOTE]

Have you tried spot on solutions? They can be applied to the coat and will kill roundworms as well as parasites of the skin and hair. That way you would be bypassing the git tract.

There might be some studies out there relating to worms not completing their life cycles in mature dogs (like lungworm in mature cattle) but I'm not aware of any and in college we were told to keep dosing them throughout their lives.

The worm eggs that the dogs might ingest can live in soil for a few weeks so even though your dogs mightn't be well travelled, another animal could have passed through their usual haunts and left a big poop behind which could be full of these eggs. You kind of take it for granted they will pick up the eggs somehow since they are so resilient and there are several different species of worm too with different ways to survive before they find a nice new canine home.

aonb

My lovely vet phoned me back this evening. We've agreed that given Murphys Law, I wont worm the elderly dog - although the vet said there were no reasons in the worming tablets manufacturers documentation to suggest there might be a reaction - but given Peppers gastric problems its not worth the risk, given that he has no signs of worms/never has. (Peppers nephew however, who always manages to find something disgusting to eat every day on his walks, has been wormed - he also has a cast iron stomach!!)

ferretone

Glad to hear your vet was so nice and open-minded! A lot of these products we unthinkingly apply at such regular intervals on our pets, in large part purely prophylactivally, are actually pretty harsh on them, and so often unnecessary.

I remember when I was young and working with horses, for example, we were taught to worm all the horse every 6-8 weeks without fail. That was the received wisdom at the time, and I now feel very guilty about the great boons we gave to the worm population, and the harm to the horse one, by following this. Now we know that, much like the money in the world, 90% of the worm burden is carried by less than 20% of the herd. So you do the tests, and worm the affected animals only. (Would it were so simple with the money!)

I can't wait for the time when pet animals are tested, and only vaccinated/wormed/whatever when it was needed. But in the meantime, it is fair enough for healthy young animals to bear the brunt of such prophylactic treatments, therefore sparing older and less healthy animals through herd immunity.

Whispered

I've been thinking about this loads lately. Having spoken to a really good groomer about my concerns with using spot on flea treatments she agreed and said she hasn't used one in years. She washes with a normal dog shampoo but makes sure to do it very thoroughly and she gives some garlic in the food once a week. Never an instance of fleas in a 5 dog household. I'll be following suit myself and if we do get fleas, we will deal with it then.

With worms I'm not so sure because I don't know a lot about it. I regularly give whole eggs, shell included as I heard years ago it helps. I'd worry because the symptoms of worms are only visible when the dog is physically effected where as fleas, you can see. There are new vets in charge if my local practise, it will be interesting to see if they support titre testing etc rather than blindly medicating. I didn't know there is a test you can do for worms.

thegreatgonzo

Whispered wrote: »

. I didn't know there is a test you can do for worms.

Faecal egg counts are done for horses because there is a problem now with drug resistance and I'm sure they could be done for companion animals too even though I haven't seen it done myself.

aonb

Whispered wrote: »

I've been thinking about this loads lately. Having spoken to a really good groomer about my concerns with using spot on flea treatments she agreed and said she hasn't used one in years. She washes with a normal dog shampoo but makes sure to do it very thoroughly and she gives some garlic in the food once a week. Never an instance of fleas in a 5 dog household. I'll be following suit myself and if we do get fleas, we will deal with it then.

With worms I'm not so sure because I don't know a lot about it. I regularly give whole eggs, shell included as I heard years ago it helps. I'd worry because the symptoms of worms are only visible when the dog is physically effected where as fleas, you can see. There are new vets in charge if my local practise, it will be interesting to see if they support titre testing etc rather than blindly medicating. I didn't know there is a test you can do for worms.

We are trying to keep my elderly dog off everything unnecessary that he could potentially have a reaction to. My vet said that the only way to know if a dog has worms is if there are bits of tapeworm in poops or around anus. He indicated that one could do a test (blood I assume) to determine if there were (other) worms. He is very anti-meds, said that in USA where he spent a lot of time, there was no regular worming - a test to see if there were worms present and THEN worm. I have stopped vaccinating this dog too - rising 16 years old - with vets approval (as an added precaution, I never bring him walking in town or at Punchestown racecourse, the canal etc now) - I agree that we probably over medicate our pets - I have never had fleas on 3 dogs as long as Ive had them - and like others, do not use any anti-flea solutions. I will start putting Diactomaceous Earth in their bedding I think, when the real flea season comes around - maybe (I use it in my hens coops).

thegreatgonzo

A heavy infestation would should show up in a blood count because one of their white blood cell counts would be raised, that would be quite an expensive way of investigating it though and a bit uncomfortable for the dog.

Bullseye1

aonb wrote: »

I have a tub of Diatomaceous Earth for my hen coops!!!! Never even crossed my mind to use it for Pepper Hmnnn, any ideas how much diatom for a 10kg dog?? Wonder if it would be ok to use for him - gastric wise? Also would it be comprehensive enough to cover all the doggie parasites/worms?

For those of you not familiar with Diatomaceous Earth - its made from fossilized shells :eek: and comes in human and animal quality - its amazing stuff - heres a list of the animal benefits that are listed on the diatom stockists website DIATOMX.CO.UK that Juniord suggested (I buy it from an organic supplies company here in Ireland - quite cheap, and they post it) Check it out!

Benefits for Animals:

• · A natural wormer without the risks associated with strong pesticides.
• · Eliminates a variety of parasites.
• · Rich in minerals that are beneficial for animal’s bodily functions.
• · Helps to rid toxic metal build up from the body.
• · Increases appetite and protein digestion while safeguarding the animal’s stomach.
• · Reduces Odours.
• · Reduces flies and pests.
• · Examples of benefits on specific animals:

Very interesting. Amazed at how cheap it is compared to the stuff being offered by our local vet. I've got some reading material on natural treatment measures and had been contemplating going down that route. Shredded carrot and pumpkinseed were mentioned.