Eurostar indexes - bull selection

Cultie

This will be my 8th year using ai on the suckler cows and I have always went for bulls showing the best Eurostar rating as and bulls recommended as the next best thing from breed societies and ai companies. I have to say I have been hugely let down. I have definitely ended up with better terminal calves but having used bulls to produce replacements as soon a s the calves hit year olds and I am considering bulling the milk rating on the euro stars has collapsed.

I think it about time we have some body to go and test these bulls for milkiness before being marketed as being so. Yes of course I know the accuracy for milk is low but take it shouldn't change form 5stars to one.

I think this year I am only going to use older bulls over 5-7 years old if I can get them that are definitely proven for milk.

Ps I have also looked at the same bull on Icbf and on the british basco recording system only to show the bull as having completely opposite traits. I am losing confidence in the whole thing.

Any one else in the same situation or know of proven milky, available sim or lim bulls that will do what it says on the tin. Fed up of hearing this bull should be or will be good for milk.

Mad4simmental

Cultie wrote: »

This will be my 8th year using ai on the suckler cows and I have always went for bulls showing the best Eurostar rating as and bulls recommended as the next best thing from breed societies and ai companies. I have to say I have been hugely let down. I have definitely ended up with better terminal calves but having used bulls to produce replacements as soon a s the calves hit year olds and I am considering bulling the milk rating on the euro stars has collapsed.

I think it about time we have some body to go and test these bulls for milkiness before being marketed as being so. Yes of course I know the accuracy for milk is low but take it shouldn't change form 5stars to one.

I think this year I am only going to use older bulls over 5-7 years old if I can get them that are definitely proven for milk.

Ps I have also looked at the same bull on Icbf and on the british basco recording system only to show the bull as having completely opposite traits. I am losing confidence in the whole thing.

Any one else in the same situation or know of proven milky, available sim or lim bulls that will do what it says on the tin. Fed up of hearing this bull should be or will be good for milk.

Simmental Anything hill crest = Milk

tanko

Don't know much about simmentals but if you are using lim bulls to try and improve milk you need to have plenty of milk in the cow you are breeding of. Ai companies seem to be giving the impression that if you use a bull which has 5 stars for milk on a cow with little milk it will result in a heifer bursting with it, which just won't happen.

Reliability figures are very important when picking bulls, unless they're over 90% they're only a guess.

blue5000

What bulls did you use?

Some breeders in the past reared their pedigree calves on a fresian cow because their own dams would have had very little milk. This would have distorted figures a lot:D

You really have to look at the reliability figures, older bulls are more reliable.

Genghis Cant

I see exactly where the OP is coming from. We would from time to time try and select bulls to hold onto a drop of milk and I have to say with mixed results. Our old CH bulled a couple of heifers and hand on heart they ended up with as much milk as if we selected one of the "Maternal" Lim bulls.

onyerbikepat

When you think about it, it takes a very long time to get any data on suckler cow MILK figures. Say you use a new bull in AI, it will be 1 year before a calf is born, another 3 years before she calves. So it could be 4 years before milk figures are there. Then how do they collect milk figures. They dont milk the suckler cows so farmers are asked to effectively guess.

Here are some bulls that have high reliability figures for milk.

Saler
Rio - 11.66Kg - 95% Rel
LZR - 14.25 - 74% Rel

LIMOUSIN
PCH - 19.91 - 78%
HCA - 10.60 - 80%
RKH - 9.48 - 94%
ONI - 7.84 - 85%
VZN - 6.38 - 73%

SIMMENTAL
HKG - 7.43 - 99%

To give you an idea on milk figures, anything over 4.63Kg and you are in the top 5% for the Limousin breed.

Bellview

Cultie wrote: »

This will be my 8th year using ai on the suckler cows and I have always went for bulls showing the best Eurostar rating as and bulls recommended as the next best thing from breed societies and ai companies. I have to say I have been hugely let down. I have definitely ended up with better terminal calves but having used bulls to produce replacements as soon a s the calves hit year olds and I am considering bulling the milk rating on the euro stars has collapsed.

I think it about time we have some body to go and test these bulls for milkiness before being marketed as being so. Yes of course I know the accuracy for milk is low but take it shouldn't change form 5stars to one.

I think this year I am only going to use older bulls over 5-7 years old if I can get them that are definitely proven for milk.

Ps I have also looked at the same bull on Icbf and on the british basco recording system only to show the bull as having completely opposite traits. I am losing confidence in the whole thing.

Any one else in the same situation or know of proven milky, available sim or lim bulls that will do what it says on the tin. Fed up of hearing this bull should be or will be good for milk.

Icbf reliability is crap but in their defence they have a tough job as beef is fragmented when compared to dairy where milk yield and solids are a leveller across all dairy breeds that is measured by facts not gut feeling. The maternal prog in icbf will have the jury out for a while as I have Aa and the focus is on using foreign bulls and there are better stock here as there. I have used some of these 'great' bulls and I have had better calves from the same cow from my stock bull and irish ai. Icbf using low reliability to tel us how to manage our breeding is dangerous but the fact that most in icbf believe the bad data is more worrying

mikeoh

When they changed over from star rating to terminal and maternal some bulls that were one star were suddenly topping lists!!!! ...its a crap system you would be as well off with a few pics of the bull to make ur mind up .....fair enough if the bulls were a high % reliability but with only maybe 1 in 10 proven its not a great service. How many lads with stock bulls worry or even know what their bulls figures are the proof is in the goods produced...........we should start a thread putting up the name of a bull and what results farmers have from him and stop paying too much attention to figures

Cultie

I have to agree to some extent. Also if the ai companies, having the pick of bulls in country cannot get bulls with accurate figures, imagine how in accurate the ebvs on young bulls purchased at sales are.

No real point in even publishing a milk ebv until daughters on the ground.

Bellview

Cultie wrote: »

I have to agree to some extent. Also if the ai companies, having the pick of bulls in country cannot get bulls with accurate figures, imagine how in accurate the ebvs on young bulls purchased at sales are.

No real point in even publishing a milk ebv until daughters on the ground.

How many ai are buying bulls from neighbours and relations?

mikeoh

I just looked up on icbf some of my pb Angus bulls that I castrated as they weren't up to scratch down through the years ......all 4 and 5* .......now I know the rel% is very low but these are the figures that would be printed in the sales catalogue if I kept them ......and u would have fellas impressed by the figures

EamonKilkenny

Something we considered years ago was bulling our first calved suckler heifers to British Friesan. The only thing that stopped us was sexed semen was very poor at the time. We felt that the cows had enough breeding behind them to pull it off and you would have a replacement with milk that you could breed terminal sires too, and if you had a nice square heifer would still have milk to breed from.

mikeoh

Might be worth a second look with some of these dual purpose breeds such as montbelairdes or MRI even shorthorn

Farrell

mikeoh wrote: »

Might be worth a second look with some of these dual purpose breeds such as montbelairdes or MRI even shorthorn

Montibelairdes bring good calves, & quality milk (my father had a few a few years back), but a culled quicker that continentals of similar age. As op pointed out, stars are not accurate, some (low star) stock CH bulls, have superior daughters than top AI rated

onyerbikepat

I wouldnt go knocking ICBF too much. It's the AI companies that you have to be wary of.;) They go to great lengths to market new unproven bulls as 'the next best thing'.
What ICBF are really starting to show though is there is a lot of value in a bull that can't be seen by just looking at him. Milk and fertility, for example. The Saler, Shorthorn, Angus are examples of these. They dont always produce the fanciest of weanlings but they make you money in other ways.

Bellview

onyerbikepat wrote: »

I wouldnt go knocking ICBF too much. It's the AI companies that you have to be wary of.;) They go to great lengths to market new unproven bulls as 'the next best thing'.
What ICBF are really starting to show though is there is a lot of value in a bull that can't be seen by just looking at him. Milk and fertility, for example. The Saler, Shorthorn, Angus are examples of these. They dont always produce the fanciest of weanlings but they make you money in other ways.

Agree they are trying but looking at bloodlines they are looking more to foreign bulls to fix the problem where there are better bulls here. I have ped AA and currently the focus is on rossiter bloodline from icbf but the calves I have from him have longest heads (prob with lot of Scottish/Canadian bloodlines), are short cattle and harder to finish... I using calves from same cows as benchmark ie bohey jasper, my stock bull (tonroe son). Once common sense is applied and when selecting bulls they look at calves on ground also as using numbers from abroad is as unreliable as what icbf are using.
This is reason why I did not join the maternal beef prog but my concern is that damage will be done by following the wrong number blindly

mikeoh

A lot to be said for stockmanship and a "good judge of cattle" ...Dovea website has a nice extra where it has pictures of off spring and tells u what kind of cow they out of.........true what u say about rossiter Eric a fine looking bull but miles from what I would consider "breed standard"

bogman_bass

mikeoh wrote: »

A lot to be said for stockmanship and a "good judge of cattle" ..

I don't know, when CF52 first came along the top breeders in the country said they would never use him because they didnt like his head. Those same breeders made fortunes selling cf52 sons

mikeoh

bogman_bass wrote: »

I don't know, when CF52 first came along the top breeders in the country said they would never use him because they didnt like his head. Those same breeders made fortunes selling cf52 sons

And I hear all the Limo breeders gone mad breeding to Eleite Erasmus (ere) "the cow killer".....they not too worried about his figures anyway!!

Mac Taylor

mikeoh wrote: »

And I hear all the Limo breeders gone mad breeding to Eleite Erasmus (ere) "the cow killer".....they not too worried about his figures anyway!!

True at 19% he is not noted for his easy calving but you don't have to buy his offspring!! As Bogman said of cf52, the breeders said they wouldn't use him, but the market demanded differently. If there is a market for ere bulls, breeders will produce them. I have said here before the ai companies have to get a return on there investment so it's no surprise they push their product. We all do if we are selling something. To be fair, I value the opinions of the posters here (well most of them!!) as they as such have no vested interest in pushing one bull over another

Cultie

Mac Taylor wrote: »

True at 19% he is not noted for his easy calving but you don't have to buy his offspring!! As Bogman said of cf52, the breeders said they wouldn't use him, but the market demanded differently. If there is a market for ere bulls, breeders will produce them. I have said here before the ai companies have to get a return on there investment so it's no surprise they push their product. We all do if we are selling something. To be fair, I value the opinions of the posters here (well most of them!!) as they as such have no vested interest in pushing one bull over another

Bulls I can say with confidence that eft e milk in the past were Epson, Navarin and a northern bull called shire Isaac.