Indicating when overtaking

tom_murphy112

Hi All,

Just wondering if somebody could clarify the procedure when overtaking in the following three scenario

1) Overtaking a cyclist
2) Overtaking a bus that has just pulled into the bus
3) Overtaking a stationary vehicle (when it is deemed necessary to indicate when overtaking)

I have always followed this procedure for all of the and wondering if they are right or will they differ for each of the above scenario

1) Mirrors
2) Indicate right
3) Look over right blind side
4) Overtake safely
5) Mirrors
6) Indicate left
7) Look over left blind side
8) Move into the left hand lane safely

Thanks

PYRAS13

Yes that is correct

loobylou

There's no need to indicate left after the overtake unless you are making a lane change.

tom_murphy112

loobylou wrote: »

There's no need to indicate left after the overtake unless you are making a lane change.

Just on the conflicting information from the previous post... As you say you don't need to indicate left, so does that mean you won't be marked down if you do actually indicate left.. Just want to be 100% sure for the test...

Thanks
Tom

gbob

Indicating can sometimes cause confusion to following traffic, example if I indicate right to pass a stationary vehicle the driver behind may assume i'm about to turn right and move to the left with the intention of passing on the left, so often I prefer not to indicate and allow following traffic to follow my "body language". Obviously i'm aware that if any following traffic assumes i'm actually stationary and attempts to pass me on the right then I will use the indicator to inform them of my intention. It is probably relevant to this that i'm driving a coach and visibility of the road ahead is obscured by my vehicle. It's a similarly confusing action when a car ahead has signaled to turn right and the car behind that indicates left to pass on the inside, the third car may not see the first car turning right and attempt an overtake of the second car whom he assumes has indicated left to pull in or turn. I've seen that happen may times and the results aint pretty.

J_R

Hi,

Here are the ROTR instructions on overtaking.

Overtaking

Only overtake if it is safe for you and other traffic. Be particularly careful of features that may hinder your view of the road ahead, such as hills, dips, bends, bridges, roads narrowing or pedestrian crossings. Pay attention to the rules on road signs or markings (continuous, broken, single, double white lines) covered in Section 6.

How to overtake safely

Make sure the road ahead is clear so you have enough distance to allow you to overtake and get back to your own side of the road without forcing any other road user to move to avoid you.

Never directly follow another overtaking vehicle.

Give way to faster traffic already overtaking from behind.

Before overtaking check that the way is clear, check in your mirror and blind spots to ensure another vehicle is not approaching from behind. Give your signal in good time, move out when it is safe to do so, accelerate and overtake with the minimum of delay.

When you are well past, check the mirror, signal and gradually move in again making sure not to cut across the vehicle you have passed.

Take extra care when overtaking a vehicle displaying a 'LONG VEHICLE' sign. This means that the vehicle is at least 13 metres long and you will need extra road length to pass it and safely return to the left-hand side of the road.

You must not break the speed limit, even when overtaking.

The blind spot check should be a quick shoulder check.

Also why are instructors teaching ? Simply does not make any sense.

1) Mirrors
2) Indicate right
3) Look over right blind side
4) Overtake safely

Why indicate before you have all the information possible,

the correct procedure is:-

1. MirrorS
2. Blind spot check

and now if clear
3. Indicate

tom_murphy112

Thanks very much everybody for the reply

MascotDec85

The blind spot check is a final check before you move out.

The same way as you check your blind spot before releasing your handbrake when moving off. You don't do everything, all your observations then signal and move off. You are double checking your other observations were correct before proceeding.

To be honest, most instructors have very slightly differing methods and there's not a whole lot between them.

If overtaking on a dual carriageway or motorway for example you should absolutely signal left when moving back into lane 1.
After moving out to pass a vehicle on a single carriageway road there's no real need to signal left as you should automatically be returning to your normal road position.

All my pupils use this method and aren't marked.

J_R

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The blind spot check is a final check before you move out.

The same way as you check your blind spot before releasing your handbrake when moving off. You don't do everything, all your observations then signal and move off. You are double checking your other observations were correct before proceeding.

To be honest, most instructors have very slightly differing methods and there's not a whole lot between them.

Hi,

Sorry do not agree. To keep it simple I tell my pupils, do ALL your checks, if clear, indicate and go.

Do not understand why you say to indicate before checking your blind spot. You are not double checking as a vehicle in your blind spot will not have been visible in the mirrors.

If there was a car in your blind spot there is a possiblity that if you indicate in front of him he may panic, assume you are pulling out, slam on the brakes or swerve to avoid.

Hence MSM.

One of the reasons I left the industry. The RSA used the MSMM acyronym a few times. To me it simply does not make any sense whasoever.

In any situation in life, before making a decision you gather all the available information possible. You then decide on what action to take. Whither to buy that car, invest in shares, whatever. Why should it be any different driving. ?

Do ALL checks, if clear, indicate and go

MascotDec85

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Sorry do not agree. To keep it simple I tell my pupils, do ALL your checks, if clear, indicate and go.

Do not understand why you say to indicate before checking your blind spot. You are not double checking as a vehicle in your blind spot will not have been visible in the mirrors.

If there was a car in your blind spot there is a possiblity that if you indicate in front of him he may panic, assume you are pulling out, slam on the brakes or swerve to avoid.

Hence MSM.

One of the reasons I left the industry. The RSA used the MSMM acyronym a few times. To me it simply does not make any sense whasoever.

In any situation in life, before making a decision you gather all the available information possible. You then decide on what action to take. Whither to buy that car, invest in shares, whatever. Why should it be any different driving. ?

Do ALL checks, if clear, indicate and go

In fairness, if it's in your blind spot when you indicate it's probably too close to you to react to the signal by slamming on its brakes.

J_R

Hi,

so he'll swerve

J_R

Hi,

watched a program on a UK channel few years back. It was when the UK brought in the theory test and they had a panel of experts to discuss the questions and answers in the test.

There was some top man from the DSA and a few from various motoring organisations, AA, RAC, correspondent from some paper and such.

They had quite a long and fairly heated discussion on the sequence of checks before moving off.

The DSA man convinced me. He said All checks, if clear, indicate. He siad if you indicated without checking your blind spot, you could be indicating in front of a car who could brake etc etc and consequently would be marked as a disqualifying fault in the test (UK).

That is where I got my All checks if clear indicate.

One of the "experts" AA man I think, just kept on about If you are in a busy place like London, if you wait unti its clear to indicate, you'll be there all day.

MascotDec85

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

watched a program on a UK channel few years back. It was when the UK brought in the theory test and they had a panel of experts to discuss the questions and answers in the test.

There was some top man from the DSA and a few from various motoring organisations, AA, RAC, correspondent from some paper and such.

They had quite a long and fairly heated discussion on the sequence of checks before moving off.

The DSA man convinced me. He said All checks, if clear, indicate. He siad if you indicated without checking your blind spot, you could be indicating in front of a car who could brake etc etc and consequently would be marked as a disqualifying fault in the test (UK).

That is where I got my All checks if clear indicate.

One of the "experts" AA man I think, just kept on about If you are in a busy place like London, if you wait unti its clear to indicate, you'll be there all day.

As I said J_R there will always be slight disagreements with nuances on things like this.

Let me put it this way, if you make sure your mirrors are set properly, start observing before you are even ready to move off ie. as you're getting first your more than likely to pick up any approaching traffic. The AA man also has a point. It comes down to practicalities. I'll tell my pupils not to signal if these an approaching car (when say at the side of the kerb getting ready to go) if they are in a parking bay, and it's busy, get the signal on. They won't know you want to get out unless it's on. An approaching car might want the space or let you out anyway.

Horses for courses. Not everything is black and white. Practicality comes into it too

sawdoubters

I would not be looking in my blind side


http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Campaigns/Current-road-safety-campaigns/Cyclists/

J_R

MascotDec85 wrote: »

As I said J_R there will always be slight disagreements with nuances on things like this.

Let me put it this way, if you make sure your mirrors are set properly, start observing before you are even ready to move off ie. as you're getting first your more than likely to pick up any approaching traffic. The AA man also has a point. It comes down to practicalities. I'll tell my pupils not to signal if these an approaching car (when say at the side of the kerb getting ready to go) if they are in a parking bay, and it's busy, get the signal on. They won't know you want to get out unless it's on. An approaching car might want the space or let you out anyway.

Horses for courses. Not everything is black and white. Practicality comes into it too

Hi,

agree wholeheartedly with the bolded. Whither parked waiting to move off or stopped in traffic a driver should be fully aware of all that is happening around him. So that when it comes time to move off it is only necessary to do the few final checks. My way of teaching was a simple clockwise movement, if clear indicate and away. No possibility of getting mixed up as to which comes first.

The way some people say or perhaps being advised to do moving off checks is as if they were blindfolded, the examiner whips away the blindfold and shouts "Drive"

MascotDec85

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

agree wholeheartedly with the bolded. Whither parked waiting to move off or stopped in traffic a driver should be fully aware of all that is happening around him. So that when it comes time to move off it is only necessary to do the few final checks. My way of teaching was a simple clockwise movement, if clear indicate and away. No possibility of getting mixed up as to which comes first.

The way some people say or perhaps being advised to do moving off checks is as if they were blindfolded, the examiner whips away the blindfold and shouts "Drive"

I get what you're saying but it isn't a totally clockwise movement as you suggest IMO. From what you're saying you'd go totally against my method. The testers don't. I rarely get obs moving off/changing lanes etc marks on tests.

I also go against the whole ism look in every mirror. There can be too much overkill. Quality observations are the key to safety. I hate to see over observations just for the sake of it. Simplify things, it makes it easier to remember and easier to carry out.

Think we'll just have to shake on stuff J_R ;-)

J_R

Hi.

Almost three years ago sent this email to the RSA

Hi,

Regarding the Rules of the Road.

Following a discussion on my forum I re-checked the Rules of the Road and was very surpriised to find that according to it I have been teaching incorrectly for many many years.

Namely I always understood that the acronym MSM stood for Mirrors, Signal, Manoeuvre, and the Manoeuvre was further broken down into Position, Speed, Look.

Imagine my surprise when I find that in Section 9 - approaching Roundabouts, it is :- "Remember, "mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre" at all stages."

Also Section 11 Motorways - Checking Traffic Around You, . it is "Before changing lane, remember 'mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre'."

I was always under the impression that before you signalled your intentions, you first must be fully aware of all conditions around you, that is, do all visual checks first - then indicate.

In the UK it is classed as a dangerous disqualifying fault to indicate in front of a car, therefore it is essentil to check your mirrors and if necessary your blind spot before indicating.

A speedy clarification would be very much appreciated.


Thank You

Received the following reply

Dear John,

Thank you for your email in relation to the rules of the road.

The ‘system of car control’ is commonly known as MSM (Mirror, Signal, Maneuver) with the Maneuver element then further broken down to Position Speed & Look. Many training manuals use the MSM abbreviation to highlight the need for constant observation and to make additional checks whilst keeping in mind that conditions around you may change very quickly and constant observation and scanning of the environment is necessary.

I do not believe that you have been teaching incorrectly, the real issue comes in the way you communicate the need for a systematic approach to hazards. This is usually done with the basic MSM to start with, moving onto MSM + PSL and so on.

Your point about Motorway driving is correct, it is MSM in just the same way, however these are not all the checks before signaling as other checks are to be made after signaling also. Your point about the UK is not clear to me, the UK require a signal if another road user is present to benefit from it therefore it would be a requirement (rather than a dangerous disqualifying fault) to signal in such circumstance.

As you may be aware, the RSA are running a series of EDT information sessions nationally for ADI’s over the coming days and should be in your area. I am happy to arrange some time for you with our Chief tester, Training and Standards Officer or Head of ADI to further explore the points you raise and clarify. Please let me know which session you will be attending and I will make the necessary arrangements.

Your input into making our roads safer is highly valued by the RSA and should you have any further observations regarding road safety do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind regards,

Note the MSMM was not mentioned, just a vague

however these are not all the checks before signaling as other checks are to be made after signaling also.

Month or two later sent the following but did not receive a reply (as yet)

Thank you for your reply.

I am happy enough with my teaching, it is the statement in the Rules of the Road that is of concern.

When I teach I explain fully why a person should do things in a certain way.

For example, when teaching to move off or change lanes I explain

Check your interior mirror, your appropriate side mirror, appropriate blind spot then IF CLEAR, indicate.

I explain that if moving off from the side of the road and you indicate in front of a car they could assume you were moving out in front of them and either slam on the brakes or swerve to avoid. Which is why, to indicate blindly is marked as a dangerous fault in the UK test.

When teaching to change lanes, I explain they must check their TWO mirrors and a quick shoulder check BEFORE indicating. Again reason given, there might be a car just on the point of overtaking and what I have seen happen quite often is that the other car slows down to allow you in but the gap is too small for safety (two second rule) so you must either cancel the indicator, slow down go in behind them or else speed up to open up a safe gap then change,( perhaps breaking the speed limit in doing so).. Much better, check first.

Now if any of my pupils read the RoTR they will see I am WRONG and it is Mirror, SIGNAL Mirrorr

I was at the EDT meeting Thursday, unfortunately had to leave early so was unable to ask for clarification

However, at the meeting I was handed copy of Lesson 3 and on:-
"Expected Outcome What should I have learned end of Lesson 3.

Use mirrors appropriately
Carry out the MSMM routine correctly"

Simple question and I would like a short one or two line explanation from one of the 'suits'. Why should you indicate before checking your exterior mirror.. Otherwise, admit they are wrong and it will be amended next edition.


Thanking You,

No answer. received