I am legally required to testify on a trial?

nacho66

Couple of years ago I put a statement at Garda station describing damage done to my car by a 3rd party. Did it only because insurance company needed the statement to proceed with my claim. I don't want to go into details about the case but there is an upcoming trial and I'm being asked to testify (probably describe the damage and show the repair costs) in court. Which I can't and don't want to do from many reasons. Can I just say 'no' to 'invitation'? How does it work?

short_of_cash

Have a read of this.....http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/who_can_be_forced_to_be_a_witness.html

nacho66

If I understand this correctly then, I cannot be forced, right?

Edit: I may understand this wrongly on the second read

Arbiter of Good Taste

I read the exact opposite

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

If I understand this correctly then, I cannot be forced, right?

It's not an invitation it's a summons you get invited to a wedding you are summonsed to court.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/how_you_are_called_as_a_witness.html

"If you have received a summons or subpoena, you must attend on the date in question at the court. If you fail to do so, you can be imprisoned for "contempt of court". It is not a good defence for you to say that you are intimidated by one of the parties in the case or afraid to give evidence."

If you are in any doubt you should seek legal advice, but do not be surprised if a Garda car shows up at you home or work to execute a bench warrant.

short_of_cash

I think it says that if you're giving evidence about your spouse you can't be forced...but otherwise..you must give evidence.

tayto lover

Grow a pair.
You made a complaint in order to get paid by the insurance company.
Now when they catch the suspect who probably did similar to other peoples cars you don't want to co-operate.
Hang your head.

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

If I understand this correctly then, I cannot be forced, right?

Edit: I may understand this wrongly on the second read

You must have missed this part.

"The general rule is that anyone who is competent can be compelled (forced) to give evidence in a criminal or civil case

Monkeybonkers

Or try the politicians trick: I don't recall any of the events of the day in question. It was a long time ago. No, no I don't recall that.

nacho66

Yeah, but I haven't been summoned, per se. I mean, didn't get any legal paper or anything. I only got a call from a Garda investigator who asked me to come to court. It seems different

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

Yeah, but I haven't been summoned, per se. I mean, didn't get any legal paper or anything. I got a call from a Garda investigator who asked me to come to court. It seems different

The Garda was asking would you be turning up, if you say no to that then he will have to get a summons and serve you. How happy do you think he will be if you the victim of a crime force him to summons you. If you don't contact him more than likely when the matter is before the court, the Garda will explain, get adjournment and summons you, or he may just allow case to be dismissed.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

The Garda was asking would you be turning up, if you say no to that then he will have to get a summons and serve you. How happy do you think he will be if you the victim of a crime force him to summons you. If you don't contact him more than likely when the matter is before the court, the Garda will explain, get adjournment and summons you, or he may just allow case to be dismissed.

They gave me 3 working days notice! I can't be in court that day, I have other matters that can't be postponed or cancelled. Simple as that. If they want to summon me officially, ok, fine. But properly, with enough time notice. Did they learn about the trial date 4 days before it starts?

the_syco

nacho66 wrote: »

Did they learn about the trial date 4 days before it starts?

Sounds like their original witness may have bailed?

RainyDay

You could be held in contempt of court, like this girl (though obviously on a much more serious matter)

http://newstalk.ie/Former-girlfriend-of-murder-convict-stands-accused-of-contempt

nacho66

RainyDay wrote: »

You could be held in contempt of court, like this girl (though obviously on a much more serious matter)

http://newstalk.ie/Former-girlfriend-of-murder-convict-stands-accused-of-contempt

By looks of it, she was 'properly' summoned. Not asked on the phone by investigator

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

They gave me 3 working days notice! I can't be in court that day, I have other matters that can't be postponed or cancelled. Simple as that. If they want to summon me officially, ok, fine. But properly, with enough time notice. Did they learn about the trial date 4 days before it starts?

Have you informed the Garda that you can't be there?

Yes they may only have learned about the trial date a few days ago I have seen judges on the day for a plea or date give a date the next week.

Victor

Monkeybonkers wrote: »

Or try the politicians trick: I don't recall any of the events of the day in question. It was a long time ago. No, no I don't recall that.

At best, this is contempt, at worst, perjury, which could mean prison time.

okioffice84

A phonecall from a garda is not a summons. You need to be properly served. That means it needs to arrive by hand, registered or recorded post. It must be served at least 7 clear days before the court date.

If you have been served with a summons if you don't turn up it may be deemed contempt of court and a warrant may be issued for your arrest

Pro Hoc Vice

okioffice84 wrote: »

A phonecall from a garda is not a summons. You need to be properly served. That means it needs to arrive by hand, registered or recorded post. It must be served at least 7 clear days before the court date.

If you have been served with a summons if you don't turn up it may be deemed contempt of court and a warrant may be issued for your arrest

It's not 7 days in the District Court it's 3

"(3) Such summons shall be signed by the Judge, Clerk or Peace Commissioner issuing it, and with it there shall also be issued a copy for service upon each person to whom it is directed, and such copies shall be served at least three clear days before the date fixed for the hearing of the complaint."

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Zambia

nacho66 wrote: »

Couple of years ago I put a statement at Garda station describing damage done to my car by a 3rd party. Did it only because insurance company needed the statement to proceed with my claim. I don't want to go into details about the case but there is an upcoming trial and I'm being asked to testify (probably describe the damage and show the repair costs) in court. Which I can't and don't want to do from many reasons. Can I just say 'no' to 'invitation'? How does it work?

This. Is your case ffs. If you didn't want the party charged you should have withdrawn your complaint.

Someone has been charged on the strength of that statement quite possibly arrested as well prior. Some garda were not our serving the community while he/she was being processed.

If you can't go to court arrange with the garda to adjourn till a day you can go.

Santa Cruz

If there are specific reasons such as prior commitments then tell the Garda that. If not tell him/her that you don't want to give evidence.
Then the Garda can get the case adjourned and arrange a summons which he will do if you don't turn up anyway.
If there is a possibility that the accused will be paying compensation then your Insurance policy requires you to assist them to get a reimbursement.

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

At best, this is contempt, at worst, perjury, which could mean prison time.

But only if you're not an ex FF minister, when perjury results in no punishment...
Willie O'D said he didn't remember being taped contradicting his high court testimony...

It seems it depends how much the state is subsidising your lifestyle in Limerick as to whether you are tried for contempt, the higher the subsidy, the lower the risk....

sawdoubters

The general rule is that anyone who is competent can be compelled (forced) to give evidence in a criminal or civil case. You are considered to be a competent witness if you are capable of giving admissible or allowable evidence in a court


If you are the accused in a criminal case you do not have to give evidence in your own defence.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Santa Cruz

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Grateful M'lud

nacho66

I received a document called 'notice of witness order'. it says 'take notice (...) a witness order was made requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial. And the date of the trial.

I excused myself from initial date, made myself available a day after. If trial gets delayed again, I won't have time the next day due to work duties. I'm not getting any time notices whatsoever. I was actually made by the Garda investigator to sit tight and wait, basically, for a phone call.

Is this how it's supposed to work?

hullaballoo

nacho66 wrote: »

I received a document called 'notice of witness order'. it says 'take notice (...) a witness order was made requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial. And the date of the trial.

I excused myself from initial date, made myself available a day after. If trial gets delayed again, I won't have time the next day due to work duties. I'm not getting any time notices whatsoever. I was actually made by the Garda investigator to sit tight and wait, basically, for a phone call.

Is this how it's supposed to work?

You are now at a far greater risk of being charged with a criminal offence if you do not attend when YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BY A COURT.

You are not entitled to "excuse" yourself or to tell AGS that it doesn't suit you to attend at any particular time/date/place. You are now obliged to be where they tell you to be, when they tell you to be because there is a criminal trial that cannot go on in your absence.

nacho66

hullaballoo wrote: »

You are now at a far greater risk of being charged with a criminal offence if you do not attend when YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BY A COURT.

You are not entitled to "excuse" yourself or to tell AGS that it doesn't suit you to attend at any particular time/date/place. You are now obliged to be where they tell you to be, when they tell you to be because there is a criminal trial that cannot go on in your absence.

Fine by me as long as I'm properly served with enough time notice. Waiting for a call from Garda investigator isn't the way to do it, is it? Am I obliged not to allow my mobile phone go dead? The witness order states a date of the trial. It's already in the past and I didn't receive any new letter. So what am I obliged to now? I have no idea at this stage when does the next trial start or anything.

Again, I don't think Garda officer calling my mobile is a proper channel, so what exactly should happen now?

PS: Note on the bottom of Witness Order letter says: "(...) a person who without just excuse disobeys a Witness Order shall be guilty of contempt of court". It does mention 'excuse'. A valid one I imagine

whippet

nacho66 wrote: »

A valid one I imagine

your understanding of a valid excuse and the understanding of the court probably varies greatly .. so tread carefully.

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

Fine by me as long as I'm properly served with enough time notice. Waiting for a call from Garda investigator isn't the way to do it, is it? Am I obliged not to allow my mobile phone go dead? The witness order states a date of the trial. It's already in the past and I didn't receive any new letter. So what am I obliged to now? I have no idea at this stage when does the next trial start or anything.

Again, I don't think Garda officer calling my mobile is a proper channel, so what exactly should happen now?

PS: Note on the bottom of Witness Order letter says: "(...) a person who without just excuse disobeys a Witness Order shall be guilty of contempt of court". It does mention 'excuse'. A valid one I imagine

It's amazing how when you said you in fact where not summonsed, now it turn out a witness order was produced, that requires you to turn up on the day and adjourned dates. Try use an excuse to a judge who has issued you a bench warrant for your ARREST.

The do document does not say excuse it says "just excuse" the word just is a important one. You sought advice on this forum and misled people some of who said to you it's fine ignore it sure they did not summons you when in fact you had been.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

It's amazing how when you said you in fact where not summonsed, now it turn out a witness order was produced, that requires you to turn up on the day and adjourned dates. Try use an excuse to a judge who has issued you a bench warrant for your ARREST.

The do document does not say excuse it says "just excuse" the word just is a important one. You sought advice on this forum and misled people some of who said to you it's fine ignore it sure they did not summons you when in fact you had been.

No, I hadn't been. Or, in other words, I had been but only after I left this thread on the forums. The summon arrived after my posts here on the 31st. The calls I've been getting from investigator were before the summon arrived. And I also told Garda investigator I can't come before the summon arrived.
The whole point of my post here was exactly that - no official summon. So at that time I didn't misled anyone

I didn't get even half a business day notice. Yes, and it is amazing that the summon was produced after I already told the investigator I cannot come

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

No, I hadn't been. Or, in other words, I had been but only after I left this thread on the forums. The summon arrived after my posts here on the 31st. The calls I've been getting from investigator were before the summon arrived. And I also told Garda investigator I can't come before the summon arrived.
The whole point of my post here was exactly that - no official summon. So at that time I didn't misled anyone

I didn't get even half a business day notice. Yes, and it is amazing that the summon was produced after I already told the investigator I cannot come

Your earlier quote,

"I received a document called 'notice of witness order'. it says 'take notice (...) a witness order was made requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial. And the date of the trial.

I excused myself from initial date, made myself available a day after. If trial gets delayed again, I won't have time the next day due to work duties. I'm not getting any time notices whatsoever. I was actually made by the Garda investigator to sit tight and wait, basically, for a phone call.

Is this how it's supposed to work?"

You have now said you where served after the 31st Jan so possibly the 1st for the trial to start yesterday the 3rd, you then say you excused yourself for the first day and the trial did not go ahead today. You then said I won't have time the next day. Did they tell you the next date, if yes did you inform the court of your difficulty. From reading your posts they seem not to tally. If in fact you where served only on Saturday and where excused yesterday and turned up today I apoligise for my misunderstanding.

In relation to now being served after saying you could not turn up, is that not exactly what a number of posters said would happen.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

Your earlier quote,

"I received a document called 'notice of witness order'. it says 'take notice (...) a witness order was made requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial. And the date of the trial.

I excused myself from initial date, made myself available a day after. If trial gets delayed again, I won't have time the next day due to work duties. I'm not getting any time notices whatsoever. I was actually made by the Garda investigator to sit tight and wait, basically, for a phone call.

Is this how it's supposed to work?"

You have now said you where served after the 31st Jan so possibly the 1st for the trial to start yesterday the 3rd, you then say you excused yourself for the first day and the trial did not go ahead today. You then said I won't have time the next day. Did they tell you the next date, if yes did you inform the court of your difficulty. From reading your posts they seem not to tally. If in fact you where served only on Saturday and where excused yesterday and turned up today I apoligise for my misunderstanding.

In relation to now being served after saying you could not turn up, is that not exactly what a number of posters said would happen.

Story is
- I received few calls from investigator asking me to come to a trial. First call was made 2 working days before the trial
- I explained the notice was too short and I have duties on Monday. Investigator accepted the excuse
- Then I received a summon letter on Saturday
- I contacted investigator and confirmed with him that I'm still excused and don't have to come. He agreed
- I was asked tho if I can be available on Tuesday instead. I agreed and made arrangements at work to push stuff to Wednesday and later
- Late Monday afternoon I received a call from investigator that the trial started on Monday and the next gathering is indeed on Tuesday but I may not be called until Wednesday and that he will give me a call to confirm. This was very late in the day and I couldn't cancel any arrangements I made so I was instantly 'unavailable' again, this time for Wednesday
-I didn't receive any call during today so basically I don't know what's going on

Also, solicitor at my work confirmed that, as opposed to election day or jury duty, employer doesn't have to cover my salary during absence. And it's up to Garda. So this adds to the mix as I don't even know at this stage if I will be covered. Is Garda obliged to cover my absence same way I'm obliged to appear in court?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

nacho66

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Expenses - does this include hourly rate for every hour I'm not at work?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

nacho66

I was told I'm not required in the court room in coming days. I believe that I should now receive a new summon letter with a date I'm supposed to appear in court. Is my assumption correct? I cannot rely on phone conversations with Garda investigator, can I? I need a solicitor for prosecution state an official date. It would sound reasonable, wouldn't?

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

I was told I'm not required in the court room in coming days. I believe that I should now receive a new summon letter with a date I'm supposed to appear in court. Is my assumption correct? I cannot rely on phone conversations with Garda investigator, can I? I need a solicitor for prosecution state an official date. It would sound reasonable, wouldn't?

I am assuming this matter is Circuit Court, jury trial, then does the witness order say something like "until this proceeding is disposed of to give evidence on behalf of the ."

If that bit in bold or something like it is there then you have been summonsed until the matter is disposed of. But as this is a serious issue you would be advised to seek real advice from a real life solicitor.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

I am assuming this matter is Circuit Court, jury trial, then does the witness order say something like "until this proceeding is disposed of to give evidence on behalf of the ."

If that bit in bold or something like it is there then you have been summonsed until the matter is disposed of. But as this is a serious issue you would be advised to seek real advice from a real life solicitor.

Only thing it says is "take notice that witness order was made in the above matter (btw, details of the matter are not enclosed in the letter) requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial and bring documents or things as directed by the court (no list of those is included tho in the letter). Then it says that the said trial will take place at Circuit Court on a particular date (which is now in the past). Signed by solicitor on behalf of prosecutor

And the contempt of Court warning/note at the bottom. That's all

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

Only thing it says is "take notice that witness order was made in the above matter (btw, details of the matter are not enclosed in the letter) requiring you to attend and give evidence at the trial and bring documents or things as directed by the court (no list of those is included tho in the letter). Then it says that the said trial will take place at Circuit Court on a particular date (which is now in the past). Signed by solicitor on behalf of prosecutor

And the contempt of Court warning. That's all

Take it to a good criminal law solicitor (not one acting in the case) and ask his advice. The Circuit Court has made an order, it would be standard that all persons who gave a statement are required to attend. While you may or may not be right in your view, you do not want to be incorrect and be facing down a judge in court that has had a trial messed up.

Can't really understand why this case is in Circuit Court, I may have incorrectly got the idea it was a minor Criminal Damage issue.

Is this matter outside Dublin.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

Take it to a good criminal la solicitor (not one acting in the case) and ask his advice. The Circuit Court has made an order, it would be standard that all persons who gave a statement are required to attend. While you may or may not be right, in you view, you do not want to be incorrect and be facing down a judge in court that has had a trial messed up.

Can't really understand why this case is in Circuit Court, I may have incorrectly got the idea it was a minor Criminal Damage issue.

Is this matter outside Dublin.

I get the point that Court made an order. I'm fine with that and ready to appear in court. However, what I'm trying to find out is what to do now, since the trial date stated in the summon is now gone. My only connection with the Court is now the Garda investigator who either calls me or not

It's just weird that this is handled practically without any notices, by phone. I really doubt people are called to appear as witness in the middle of the day, just taken out from their work place, meetings etc. And I'm pretty much being prepared for this by sitting tight and awaiting a phone call

Regarding the case - To be honest, I don't know much about it, summon letter doesn't describe it (even tho it says it does). My damage was little but I wasn't around when it happened so cannot be sure how much damage there was and if it involved other parties

Pro Hoc Vice

nacho66 wrote: »

I get the point that Court made an order. I'm fine with that and ready to appear in court. However, what I'm trying to find out is what to do now, since the trial date stated in the summon is now gone. My only connection with the Court is now the Garda investigator who either calls me or not

Regarding the case - To be honest, I don't know much about it, summon letter doesn't describe it (even tho it says it does). My damage was little but I wasn't around when it happened so cannot be sure how much damage there was and if it involved other parties

Ask the Garda to put you in touch with the State Solicitor dealing with the issue (the reason I asked was it a case outside Dublin, is that if it is he or she is going to be up the wall dealing with the criminal sessions and may be very busy) but ask can you have 5 mins to talk to ask your questions, some Circuits are better able to predict when a case will be heard, or to arrange to give a clear enough time slot to hear your evidence (depending).

Other than that a local solicitor should be able to correctly answer your questions with all the relevant info to hand.

nacho66

infosys wrote: »

Ask the Garda to put you in touch with the State Solicitor dealing with the issue (the reason I asked was it a case outside Dublin, is that if it is he or she is going to be up the wall dealing with the criminal sessions and may be very busy) but ask can you have 5 mins to talk to ask your questions, some Circuits are better able to predict when a case will be heard, or to arrange to give a clear enough time slot to hear your evidence (depending).

Other than that a local solicitor should be able to correctly answer your questions with all the relevant info to hand.

Will do however my personal feeling is this is not how it should be handled. I shouldn't need to call Garda to ask for an update or to put me in touch with a solicitor/prosecutor. They require me more than I require a visit in a courtroom

Peregrinus

The thing is, nacho66, an awful lot of people have to be in the right place at the right time for a criminal trial to happen. And since many of them are simultaneously involved in other criminal trials whose organisation is equally complex and the rest of them - like yourself - have jobs and lives outside the courtroom, and since the course of all the trials is somewhat unpredictable, a fair amount of flexibility and a fair amount of juggling is required.

You’ve been summonsed, and you’re obliged to attend. They’d be within their rights, if they wished, to require you (and every other witness) to attend on the first day of the trial, and on every day, day after day, until you are called as a witness and you have finished and have been cross-examined. That would certainly be the most convenient thing for them, though obviously not for you.

They don’t want to impose that on you, so they’re trying to predict, as the trial proceeds, when you are likely to be wanted, and to let you know when that is, so that you need only attend them. But in the nature of things, that can’t be an exact science, so - as here - they may find themselves having to update or correct what you have previously been told. For obvious reasons, that’s best done by phone and not by sending you postcards. That may be annoying but, remember, they’re trying to do you a favour.

This is a pain, but much less of a pain than the alternative which is having to hang around the court all day for as a many days as it takes for the trial to get to a point where your evidence can be heard. So on the whole it’s in your interests (and your employer’s interests) to try and accommodate yourself to the situation and be as flexible as you can, so as to minimise the time you have to spend away from work.

Zambia

Check you out with your common sense approach.

nacho66

Peregrinus wrote: »

The thing is, nacho66, an awful lot of people have to be in the right place at the right time for a criminal trial to happen. And since many of them are simultaneously involved in other criminal trials whose organisation is equally complex and the rest of them - like yourself - have jobs and lives outside the courtroom, and since the course of all the trials is somewhat unpredictable, a fair amount of flexibility and a fair amount of juggling is required.

You’ve been summonsed, and you’re obliged to attend. They’d be within their rights, if they wished, to require you (and every other witness) to attend on the first day of the trial, and on every day, day after day, until you are called as a witness and you have finished and have been cross-examined. That would certainly be the most convenient thing for them, though obviously not for you.

They don’t want to impose that on you, so they’re trying to predict, as the trial proceeds, when you are likely to be wanted, and to let you know when that is, so that you need only attend them. But in the nature of things, that can’t be an exact science, so - as here - they may find themselves having to update or correct what you have previously been told. For obvious reasons, that’s best done by phone and not by sending you postcards. That may be annoying but, remember, they’re trying to do you a favour.

This is a pain, but much less of a pain than the alternative which is having to hang around the court all day for as a many days as it takes for the trial to get to a point where your evidence can be heard. So on the whole it’s in your interests (and your employer’s interests) to try and accommodate yourself to the situation and be as flexible as you can, so as to minimise the time you have to spend away from work.

Thanks Peregrinus for explanation from this angle

Santa Cruz

nacho66 wrote: »

No, I hadn't been. Or, in other words, I had been but only after I left this thread on the forums. The summon arrived after my posts here on the 31st. The calls I've been getting from investigator were before the summon arrived. And I also told Garda investigator I can't come before the summon arrived.
The whole point of my post here was exactly that - no official summon. So at that time I didn't misled anyone

I didn't get even half a business day notice. Yes, and it is amazing that the summon was produced after I already told the investigator I cannot come

It's not amazing. You said you weren't going to turn up so the Garda had no option but to have a summons served on you. Try not turning up now and you will be arrested.