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Qi Gong - gone wrong

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  • 30-01-2014 7:28pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭


    WFT? I got this DVD with a short intro to Qi Gong. Three short lessons in 'activating my qi' I did it and felt the tingling etc. Went to bed and woke up like a f*cking anti christ. Been totally out of sorts since. Also been using the bog 10 times per day. What the hell have I done to myself and should I continue to do this (as a mate of mine who does Tai Chi suggests) or run like fook?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭maguffin


    leblanc wrote: »
    WFT? I got this DVD with a short intro to Qi Gong. Three short lessons in 'activating my qi' I did it and felt the tingling etc. Went to bed and woke up like a f*cking anti christ. Been totally out of sorts since. Also been using the bog 10 times per day. What the hell have I done to myself and should I continue to do this (as a mate of mine who does Tai Chi suggests) or run like fook?

    It's pointless trying to study QiGong from a dvd (or YouTube)....you need an experienced teacher. If your friend practices Tai Chi he/she most likely does Qigong as well...go to the Tai Chi class and talk to the teacher....stop using the dvd.

    Where are you located?

    Regards
    maguffin


  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭leblanc


    I'm in Kerry. Might leave the old Qi gong be for the time being so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭maguffin


    leblanc wrote: »
    I'm in Kerry. Might leave the old Qi gong be for the time being so.

    or you might try here....found it on a quick search...

    http://www.smilefromtheheart.ie/courses-.html

    for what it's worth...I've been practicing Qi Gong (standing form) for 17 years now and find it of great help health-wise


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    qi wong would not affect your bowel movements, nor is there any such thing as activating your chi/qi/tea/hadoken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,948 ✭✭✭cletus


    I give it a 5 out of 10


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    The Chinese expression for this translates at "catching fire, enter demon", and is a warning of incorrect Qi Gung / Nei Gung practice.

    people suffer minor aliments like you mention but in many cases impotence is also a side effect!!!

    i know of a chap in the UK who through incorrect methods ended up with a problem of premature ejaculation, this nearly destroyed his marriage, he went to learn Nei Gung off my sifu afterwards, and stopped his old practice, and was well again after 2-3 weeks.

    Psychosis is not an uncommon result of Qi Gung practice treated in Chinese mental hospitals.

    Most of the peer reviewed material on this is in Chinese, and not available in the west.

    So beware!! Stop immediately if it causes negative side effects!

    Also there are many types of Qi and so Qi Gung!
    In martial arts Qi means flow (of yin and yang) so breath with movement, left side and right side working together, upper body and lower. Etc.
    usually this is fairly harmless calisthenic excercises.
    Some mess around with breath control and dynamic tension, if this is done wrong you are basically tearing youraelf apart and problems ensue.

    Nei Gung is a whole other level of practice and requires one to one transmission.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    there is evidence in western literature of qi gong exercise can reduce blood pressure for short durations after practice. perhaps that is an explanation for the ED and increased gut motility.If there was much evidence to this particular branch of chinese medicine it would be reproduced in the west no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    Russellynx wrote: »
    there is evidence in western literature of qi gong exercise can reduce blood pressure for short durations after practice. perhaps that is an explanation for the ED and increased gut motility.If there was much evidence to this particular branch of chinese medicine it would be reproduced in the west no?

    I disagree in calling Qi Gung "chinese medicine", especially when it comes to martial arts, and Tai Chi Chuan in particular. (OP talks of his TCC friend)

    Like we have ways in the west to train out habits of muscles fighting against each other and training the nervous system to fire correctly, hell even weight lifting concerns itself with good form etc. and it is well known that the massive increase for beginners in weights comes from "educating" the nervous system rather than any significant growth in muscle mass. Breath is used too to aid lifts etc.... Same with many sports...

    Martial Qi gung basically does all this BUT through repeating "martially relevant" motion, so all the methods should have several common applications. Its about efficiency not having to waste hours working on weight exercises etc. that have no martial relevance or worse still train the nervous system to act martially incorrectly, ingraining bad habits.
    For one example take the bench press, to get the burn and tear the muscle enough to build mass, one lowers the bar down to the chest, meaning the elbows cross behind the side of the body - a big taboo in Chinese wrestling, because you want to rely on structure (aligned skeleton held in place - middle third rule of engineering) rather than the tensile ability of major muscle groups which inevitable sap the body of energy resources, oxygen, sugar etc..

    So if you only know to use the bench press to develop power in the chest, well you need to repeat and train the "wrong" movement for fighting, and so at the very least no awareness of the limitation of structure is trained (if half the time you train normal weights and half wrestling for example. There are of course in many traditional wrestling traditions very different weight training methods that avoid such errors)

    Anyway Martial Qi Gung is all abot this kind of stuff, and not just about wrestling either, thats just an example I hope is painfully clear, though you never know around here sometimes.

    There is tons of material in Chinese, but no not in the west about problems with Qi Gung. Why? Well first you need someone capable of translating Chinese, which is not a language based around letters but metaphors. Then that person needs to be familiar with the subject if the translation has any hope of being close.

    How many western medical practitioners are masters of Qi Gung and aware of its history and theory? I'm sure many claim to be, just like many claim to teach Tai Chi Chuan, but the truth is outside of new age BS, the "zhen Chuan" (true transmission) is very thin on the ground.

    Seeing as this is a martial arts forum, you might be familiar with say "Crouching Tiger - Hidden Dragon" - a huge box office success, lots of money earned from western interest. YET no translation of the book exists, not to mention the 4 others of the series. If something as mainstream (relatively) as this isn't translated, just to make obvious cash, who do you think is going to pay to translate the obscure writings on Qi gung? (you will find some translated by professors, and if you inspect the authors and where the source material comes from there is too cosy a relationship!)

    Also keep in mind the cultural revolution, most of this stuff was lost - the real stuff, what was kept and adopted mainstream was fairly innocuous. Qi gung has always been associated with martial arts and revolution - White Lotus, Yellow Turban, Boxers etc etc. Even today the Chinese government's stance against Falun Gong, a Qi Gung sect who claim more members than the communist party!!! (they are interesting as a case of pure "Woo", expecting a golden ball to grow with in themselves through practice, mistaking the metaphor for the literal.)

    I could go on and on, but I think you should get the point, when it comes to Qi Gung, it wont be in the Occidental database.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Just to add briefly to what Niall has said, you practise qigong for a reason, so it would be worth knowing from the OP what they're hoping to achieve.

    In addition to martial arts neigong and qigong, many people practise milder forms for health and to recuperate, which is broadly beneficial and risk free. e.g. I picked up a DVD covering 'the eight pieces of brocade' for my wife when she was getting over some surgery to her back. Note this was after checking it out as a good idea with her surgeon, she'd already done some taichi in the past, and I'd already practised this set.

    I've also picked up a number of books on martial qigong and negong over the years, and many are best described as a pile of hippy crap, with some being potentially dangerous. The catch-22 is that to have some idea what is good or bad, you need some background in the subject, so there is no real alternative than getting taught first hand when starting out.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    I disagree in calling Qi Gung "chinese medicine", especially when it comes to martial arts, and Tai Chi Chuan in particular. (OP talks of his TCC friend)

    Like we have ways in the west to train out habits of muscles fighting against each other and training the nervous system to fire correctly, hell even weight lifting concerns itself with good form etc. and it is well known that the massive increase for beginners in weights comes from "educating" the nervous system rather than any significant growth in muscle mass. Breath is used too to aid lifts etc.... Same with many sports...

    Martial Qi gung basically does all this BUT through repeating "martially relevant" motion, so all the methods should have several common applications. Its about efficiency not having to waste hours working on weight exercises etc. that have no martial relevance or worse still train the nervous system to act martially incorrectly, ingraining bad habits.
    For one example take the bench press, to get the burn and tear the muscle enough to build mass, one lowers the bar down to the chest, meaning the elbows cross behind the side of the body - a big taboo in Chinese wrestling, because you want to rely on structure (aligned skeleton held in place - middle third rule of engineering) rather than the tensile ability of major muscle groups which inevitable sap the body of energy resources, oxygen, sugar etc..

    So if you only know to use the bench press to develop power in the chest, well you need to repeat and train the "wrong" movement for fighting, and so at the very least no awareness of the limitation of structure is trained (if half the time you train normal weights and half wrestling for example. There are of course in many traditional wrestling traditions very different weight training methods that avoid such errors)

    Anyway Martial Qi Gung is all abot this kind of stuff, and not just about wrestling either, thats just an example I hope is painfully clear, though you never know around here sometimes.

    There is tons of material in Chinese, but no not in the west about problems with Qi Gung. Why? Well first you need someone capable of translating Chinese, which is not a language based around letters but metaphors. Then that person needs to be familiar with the subject if the translation has any hope of being close.

    How many western medical practitioners are masters of Qi Gung and aware of its history and theory? I'm sure many claim to be, just like many claim to teach Tai Chi Chuan, but the truth is outside of new age BS, the "zhen Chuan" (true transmission) is very thin on the ground.

    Seeing as this is a martial arts forum, you might be familiar with say "Crouching Tiger - Hidden Dragon" - a huge box office success, lots of money earned from western interest. YET no translation of the book exists, not to mention the 4 others of the series. If something as mainstream (relatively) as this isn't translated, just to make obvious cash, who do you think is going to pay to translate the obscure writings on Qi gung? (you will find some translated by professors, and if you inspect the authors and where the source material comes from there is too cosy a relationship!)

    Also keep in mind the cultural revolution, most of this stuff was lost - the real stuff, what was kept and adopted mainstream was fairly innocuous. Qi gung has always been associated with martial arts and revolution - White Lotus, Yellow Turban, Boxers etc etc. Even today the Chinese government's stance against Falun Gong, a Qi Gung sect who claim more members than the communist party!!! (they are interesting as a case of pure "Woo", expecting a golden ball to grow with in themselves through practice, mistaking the metaphor for the literal.)

    I could go on and on, but I think you should get the point, when it comes to Qi Gung, it wont be in the Occidental database.

    Clumsy readers might take what you're saying at face value. But of course you are dismissing the 100,000s of Chinese Doctors who are trained in the 'western method'. Thus, Chinese practioneers of medicine would be very aware of what's the best of 'chinese medicine' and of those 100,000 there are plenty who can translate both the words and the meaning of the chinese literature.

    a pubmed search for beijing indicates a crude estimate of output from beijing university, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=beijing which is 130,000 articles all in english.

    On a more specific point, how does the relationship between training the CNS and motor unit recruitment reflect impotence, gut motility etc. from qigung? I think that's a very large step that isn't reflected by the evidence. YOu saying lifting weights beginners have a high early improvement due to accumulation of technique/CNS to akin to ppl messing their gi physiology up isn't logical.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Russellynx wrote: »
    Clumsy readers might take what you're saying at face value. But of course you are dismissing the 100,000s of Chinese Doctors who are trained in the 'western method'. Thus, Chinese practioneers of medicine would be very aware of what's the best of 'chinese medicine' and of those 100,000 there are plenty who can translate both the words and the meaning of the chinese literature.

    You seem to be conflating traditional Chinese medicine or TCM with western medicine as practised by Chinese doctors. I think most people in a western martial arts forum would equate the term "Chinese medicine" with TCM rather than advances in western medicine made by Chinese doctors.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    Hmmm, either you haven't been around the Internal Arts long enough to be aware of “Zuo Huo Ru Mo” and the likes etc. or you are being disingenuous with the facts?


    The first 5 papers on your linked page are:

    A new specimen of the Early Cretaceous bird Hongshanornis longicresta: insights into the aerodynamics and diet of a basal ornithuromorph.

    Heavy metal accumulation by periphyton is related to eutrophication in the hai river basin, northern china.

    Efficacy and safety of a biodegradable polymer sirolimus-eluting stent in primary percutaneous coronary intervention: a randomized controlled trial.

    Crystal structure of a multilayer packed major light-harvesting complex: implications for grana stacking in higher plants.

    OsRFPH2-10, a RING-H2 finger E3 ubiquitin ligase,is involved in rice antiviral defense in the early stages of Rice dwarf virus infection.



    Could you explain where these deal with harmful effects of incorrect Qi Gung practice?

    Providing a link stating it holds 130,000 published articles from a university as evidence against my assertion that not much has been published on this particular area in English, when the articles have nothing to do with the subject can hardly be read in any other way except that you are being disingenuous with facts? Like you said “clumsy readers might take what you are saying at face value”!

    On a more specific point, how does the relationship between training the CNS and motor unit recruitment reflect impotence, gut motility etc. from qigung? I think that's a very large step that isn't reflected by the evidence.

    What “evidence”?

    And I stated that there are well know links between Qi gung and such disorders, Qi gung covers a vast area of practice, as you probably know? (standing, sitting, moving, breathing methods, visualisation, massaging internal organs, hell many deal with “shen” spiritual / mental development etc. etc..) SO DEPENDANT on what type of Qi Gung is practiced different areas can be effected. Again taking one element of an example I gave, and using it as a smoke screen to hide other areas of practice is disingenuous!

    But even on simple DVD Qi Gung, some of the exercises may be completely unfamiliar to people, to be light-hearted for a moment, even in sport, which may help as an analogy for those unfamiliar with Qi gung, we have all heard of people training until they nearly “sh1t themselves” when it is a demanding and new exercises.

    Personally I recall teaching an individual a simple enough Martial Chi Gung Exercise called “Retrieving the Moon”, I mentioned that done 360 times it is called “The test of heroes”, that individual wanted to test it out I guess, and did 100 reps, they couldn't walk properly and therefore train for a few days afterwards, I got no reports on their bowel movements.

    Speaking of tests, many exist in Nei gung and martial Qi Gung methods, in the method I practice we are tested after 100 days by having someone jump from 6ft or more onto our abdomens 3 times. I demonstrated this once in my younger days at a party with a fellow student jumping off a kitchen counter onto my stomach, no bother to me, BUT a very good friend of mine a good amateur boxer felt it was an easy accomplishment - disregarding my warnings he tried, and this was only from a counter not 6ft! and ended up sh1tting blood for a week!!!
    Exact same thing happened to a TCC teacher in San Francisco who had been taught incorrectly the NEi Gung exercises, the man contacted Cheng Tin hung to complain, to discover he had been cheated by his "teacher", CTH put him in touch with one of his actual students and the man went on to learn the correct way and give regular demos in the US of the feat. So again not only in the everyday practice are harmful consequences possible but the "tests" associated with different methods can also be harmful if the methods have been practiced incorrectly.


    Anyway, even day to day exercising, it is quite common knowledge when it comes to serious training of athletes, over training areas in isolation can lead to imbalance, causing compensating factors elsewhere in the body that exasperate further, and add new problems, extending beyond the initial effected area, that go on to cause long term psychological stress, which can snowball into other chronic and harmful issues.
    (and this analogy is particularly useful, as Nei Gung can (tends to) be seriously demanding, physically and mentally - but then again it is designed to develop Jin (focused power), Yi (Intent) and Shen (spirit) - normally healthy and athletic people are shaking and trembling on their first few experiences, gradually getting used to it, getting stronger and able to do more exercises - introduced gradually by the teacher.)
    YOu saying lifting weights beginners have a high early improvement due to accumulation of technique/CNS to akin to ppl messing their gi physiology up isn't logical.

    I have no interest or intention of “teaching” people online, I used an analogy I hope those unfamiliar with the subject may understand, I have provided enough information for the OP to do his research.

    Bowel problems and Spinal problems are a very common “sickness” associated with incorrect Qi Gung practice, albeit not usually with government sanctioned / sanitised versions, which generally amount to innocuous and healthy stretches, difficult to “do wrong”. By that I mean, the type of internal practice sanctioned by the Chinese Government, like for example the Bejing 24 Tai Chi Form is about as “internal” as that government is socialist! (If you have seen the wealth and opulence of Beijing and the dire third world poverty of “closed” China you will understand this.)

    I was also speaking of Martial Qi gung / Nei gung, and how they help train a fighter, I specifically said I was giving a singular example relating to wrestling ability:

    I said:
    thats just an example I hope is painfully clear, though you never know around here sometimes.



    messing their gi physiology up

    What do you mean by this? , and I ask you where is the “evidence” that “chi / qi” exists in the first place?

    (BTW for readers not aware the “Chi” in Tai Chi Chuan has nothing to do with “Chi” the energetic concept - just something I'm aware confuses some readers. Tai Chi is the name of the Yin-Yang symbol, so Tai Chi Chuan means Yin-Yang Boxing.

    Hence Qi Gung relating to martial arts is something different to Qi gung related to general health. Chi (Qi) Gungs associated with martial arts such as Tai Chi Chuan have a particular aim and flavor! (here Qi -which has 100's of meanings in Chinese Medicine- in a martial sense means “flow” more specifically the flow of yin and yang, and so breath working with movement, the right side of the body helping the left (turning around the spine – push pull), the lower and upper aiding one another – ideas like focus, 3 external harmonies (hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, hands and feet moving together) to keep balance and power throughout a movement – this connectivity is the real meaning of “Internal” in Internal Martial Arts.)

    This view of Martial Qi / Chi is shared by Daoist priests of the “Purple Cloud Temple” on Wudang mountain and by those of the “White Cloud Temple” in Beijing, the Vaticans of Daoism!

    (I've asked! and these boys believe in other forms of chi!
    So the western jedi chi-force idea is not from Chinese Martial arts, but a blurring of martial and medical concepts, confused more as the word "chi" meaning vital essence is used in classic writings too, but context is paramount and martial understanding essential for one to "know what the fcuk they are on about" to put it mildly) I blame Lucas:

    http://youtu.be/XMdR9iAflKo


    Traditionally Tai Chi Nei Gung has 3 phases: (which very few now practice, many charlatans substituting other Daoist Health (publically acquired) Qi Gung to hide the fact it is lost to them and their lineage (or lack of), and so end up cultivating the wrong type of “qi / chi” for martial purposes)

    1. unify breath and movement

    2. unify intent and movement (those harmonies I spoke about and martially correct movement made a natural response, so FOR EXAMPLE when one seizes a leg, the head is protected on the way down and not left open for knees etc. as so many do)
    It means being fully aware of ones potential and limitations and how to recover with power in movement.

    3. unify with the Dao (way) (it means being fully aware of your limitations and the opponents and your environment, and being able to use them to the most efficient manner. (see that word “opponent” doesn't exist in health Qi cultivation! Certainly we seek to reach a level martially where we “embrace the one” , where there is no me or opponent, only opportunity, but having learned to deal with aggression and violence in an artful and detached manner is poles apart from never encountering it at all.)

    ALL PRACTICAL!!! as the “Dao” of fighting should be! Most of the “real deal” in Chinese Martial Arts is simple and efficient, but does require lots of practice and as the classics point out:
    “To enter the gate and walk the path, oral instruction is necessary!”

    Doing any kind of martial Chi / Nei gung with out instruction is at best pointless but more than lightly harmful. To what degree depends on how badly one practices.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    smacl wrote: »
    You seem to be conflating traditional Chinese medicine or TCM with western medicine as practised by Chinese doctors. I think most people in a western martial arts forum would equate the term "Chinese medicine" with TCM rather than advances in western medicine made by Chinese doctors.

    no i'm not. I'm saying chinese doctors who speak chinese and have good english would be publishing anything useful from traditional chinese medicine as there would be no language barrier and they would want to put their name on anything useful from traditional remedies. this was clear from my post.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    Hmmm, either you haven't been around the Internal Arts long enough to be aware of “Zuo Huo Ru Mo” and the likes etc. or you are being disingenuous with the facts?

    obfuscation.
    The first 5 papers on your linked page are:

    Could you explain where these deal with harmful effects of incorrect Qi Gung practice?

    demonstrating the wealth of data published in english from chinese universities, surely you accept that if they were going to publish on palaeontology in english, something without any commericial value, they'd publish anything of merit from tradtional medicine they could get their hands on. Your argument is that there aren't any publications of trials in english using TCM or equivalent, where i am making the case that anything of nay merit would be published.
    Providing a link stating it holds 130,000 published articles from a university as evidence against my assertion that not much has been published on this particular area in English, when the articles have nothing to do with the subject can hardly be read in any other way except that you are being disingenuous with facts? Like you said “clumsy readers might take what you are saying at face value”!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24400778




    And I stated that there are well know links between Qi gung and such disorders,

    explain?

    Personally I recall teaching an individual a simple enough Martial Chi Gung Exercise called “Retrieving the Moon”, I mentioned that done 360 times it is called “The test of heroes”, that individual wanted to test it out I guess, and did 100 reps, they couldn't walk properly and therefore train for a few days afterwards, I got no reports on their bowel movements.

    what exactly are you trying to show? can you not do it in fewer than 500 words? my statement, quite clearly is, qi gung couldn't cause impotence or diarrohea. prove to me how it does. i will certainly entertain who practices chinese kickboxing if he wants to give a lecture on neurophysiology.
    Speaking of tests, many exist in Nei gung and martial Qi Gung methods, in the method I practice we are tested after 100 days by having someone jump from 6ft or more onto our abdomens 3 times.

    example of complete daft, macho behaviour that proves that anyone involved in this nonsense is totally devoid of rational sense.
    I demonstrated this once in my younger days at a party with a fellow student jumping off a kitchen counter onto my stomach, no bother to me,

    oh what an impressive and virile male you must have been. did it impress the girls?
    BUT a very good friend of mine a good amateur boxer felt it was an easy accomplishment - disregarding my warnings he tried, and this was only from a counter not 6ft! and ended up sh1tting blood for a week!!!

    stupid is as stupid does.
    Exact same thing happened to a TCC teacher in San Francisco who had been taught incorrectly the NEi Gung exercises, the man contacted Cheng Tin hung to complain, to discover he had been cheated by his "teacher", CTH put him in touch with one of his actual students and the man went on to learn the correct way and give regular demos in the US of the feat. So again not only in the everyday practice are harmful consequences possible but the "tests" associated with different methods can also be harmful if the methods have been practiced incorrectly.

    this isn't a blog service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    something, not much, in English:

    http://easap.asia/journal_file/0004_Culture_bound%2012_14.pdf
    The paper concluded that if Qigong is used inappropriately,
    it can produce abnormal psychosomatic responses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    some more:

    http://anp.sagepub.com/content/33/2/197.short

    http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125


    Of course as the Irish Rep for the TCFE (Taijiquan and Qigong Federation for Europe) and my own Sifu being the chairman, I've had lots of interaction with world renowned masters in the field of QiGong over the years. Personally I'm all about the martial and not so into the health side of Internal Arts, but obviously I will have had insider accounts of such matters. And be aware that in China it is more researched than in the West.



    Russellynx feel free to post your apology!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 88 ✭✭Russellynx


    some more:

    http://anp.sagepub.com/content/33/2/197.short

    http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125


    Of course as the Irish Rep for the TCFE (Taijiquan and Qigong Federation for Europe) and my own Sifu being the chairman, I've had lots of interaction with world renowned masters in the field of QiGong over the years. Personally I'm all about the martial and not so into the health side of Internal Arts, but obviously I will have had insider accounts of such matters. And be aware that in China it is more researched than in the West.



    Russellynx feel free to post your apology!

    I read your first paper there, not the subsequent two. But I think i'll just repeat what I said earlier "qi wong would not affect your bowel movements, nor is there any such thing as activating your chi/qi/tea/hadoken.", so unless your trying to say that the above is proof of that you still owe me an apology.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    It is blatantly clear to all now that you are being petulant, thanks for that!

    The articles state that incorrect practice of QiGung can produce abnormal psychosomatic responses.

    Now I'm no doctor, nor am I'm wasting more time doing your research, but try some Google-Fu and check out abnormal psychosomatic responses and various disorders including impotence (you didn't think I wouldn't notice how you deceitfully dropped that after all your insulting my livelihood, lying about and deriding my occupation etc, suggesting I didn't therefore have the qualification to speak at all on this? did you? however I feel at this stage fairly confident that a PHD in neurophysiology is something well beyond your own capability)

    As for "activating your chi", this is a strawman! I have never mentioned "activating you chi" mainly because I don't believe in Jedi Force Chi Woo. I have in fact explained EXACTLY what the term "chi" MEANS in a martial arts context! Pay attention you dunce! And try a bit of honesty?

    I understand why you are clutching at straws, you mightn't be mature enough to let go of your second hand (MMA Dojo or Forum adopted creed) and firmly held but demonstratively false, and truly ignorant beliefs (as in you have no experience in this topic), I know that's surely making you suffer from cognitive dissonance, as evidenced by your ad hominem, non-relevant personal attacks on my person, my art, my friend and career earlier, so go ahead have the last word you child! I'm joining in now as it seems to be open season round here lately.

    Don't forget to take the piss out of the length of this post as you did with the one earlier, guess its tough reading with ADD? and remember to circle jerk about it all with your won nothing ever pals down at wannabe UFC class! ONE. TWO - UNIFLU!!!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Russellynx wrote: »
    I read your first paper there, not the subsequent two. But I think i'll just repeat what I said earlier "qi wong would not affect your bowel movements, nor is there any such thing as activating your chi/qi/tea/hadoken.", so unless your trying to say that the above is proof of that you still owe me an apology.

    No idea what martial qiqong sets you have direct knowledge of or practised if any, but most involve squatting, and many involve directly impacting and/or massaging the abdomen, all of which can affect digestion. Martial qigong typically also tends to be very physically demanding. It is well documented that physically strenuous exercise can lead to diarrhea among other ailments, so it is not much of a leap to suggest this is true of martial qigong. Not exactly rocket science.


  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭hurpederp


    what the hell is going on here


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  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    The OP complained of the detrimental effect that an autodidactic approach to learning Qi Gong had.The symptoms described were relatively severe as to suggest that the OP had sought to learn a form of Qi Gong which needs to be transmitted via a qualified instructor. I,myself, have learned some Qi Gong sets most notably 8 Pieces of Silk brocade and Tai Chi Shibashi. Although I was instructed in the former I do not imagine that learning from a DVD without instruction would be fatal to ones health but it is unlikely that you would not benefit from proper instruction. The latter set I did learn myself from the following source..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c60u6WfChmM and I also bought a book on this set by Chris Jarmey. Having had some prior instruction in Qi Gong though I feel accelerated my learning curve. Neither one of these sets is in the same bracket as what is being discussed by Niall regarding the practice of Nei Gung which from my very limited experience requires,absolutely, proper instruction. Learning anything however requires motivation,dedication and commitment to regular practice and this in my opinion is not best served by a weekend course!

    I have to admit that I do not really understand the points or attitude being raised by subsequent posters. Nialls' perspective I find informative and his use of anecdotal evidence and links to relevant subject matter pertinent and thought provoking. Surely as a fighter you need to condition yourself to be able to take punches and you would want to test the effectiveness of your training as delusion would be costly in the heat of battle. Sanitized saintly anecdotes that appease the sensibilities and egos of others are not so instructive as real world accounts. Dismissing something as being stupid and macho is to ignore the essence and meaning behind the anecdote and does nothing to enhance anybodies understanding. My slightly irrelevant anecdote goes like this..When I lived in London I used to frequent a chinese practitioner of TCM. Because his english was not so good he employed a young chinese woman who had qualified in China as a doctor of western medicine but was obliged to requalify in order to be able to work in England.Consequently she was supporting her studies with this job and it afforded her the opportunity to learn something of TCM and also Qi Gong. My question is thus..how many chinese people who are qualified in western medicine would also have a background in TCM and knowledge of Qi Gong?


  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    The Qi Gong sets that I mentioned can however also be done at different levels and with different breathing patterns. It is advised that proper instruction be sought for instance if you decide to practice 'reverse abdominal breathing'. This point I think has already being made. These sets are also designed to stimulate certain meridians in a balanced way and it stands to reason that if you omit certain exercises or are not mindful of the intent of the set that this might give rise to unusual sensations. It is also not unusual to suffer a 'healing crisis' when initiating any new form of exercise and it is not so much that the exercises are having a harmful effect but rather that underlying problems are being revealed to you. I think the healing crisis after massage is well documented. These are just my thoughts on the subject and I have not conducted any double bind experiments nor read copious medical documents on the subject. I am also not versed in the cultural and philosophical world view from whence these practices originated nor do I speak or read Cantonese or Mandarin. There are in fact so many parameters that might be considered of which one might acknowledge with humility that one is is not conversant with to make the whole subject moot unless one has some direct experience of the subject.

    And maybe the OP had eaten just prior to his exercise!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Came across this site during my studies and thought I'd post it for those who have an interest in this subject. Haven't got around to reading any of the articles myself.

    http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php


  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Now if the OP thought he had problems then he should read this account as this will surely break open your head. Is it true?..who knows.

    http://www.thejinn.net/chi_jinn_my_story.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭bonzo_k


    Hi, can anybody recommend a good qi gong teacher in dublin, preferably city centre or northside ? I did a search on this forum but couldn't find any information.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Well there is this school in Raheny who teach a Qi Gong set (5 Element Qi Gong). I've never being there myself so I couldn't comment on the quality of the teaching but it's well established

    http://www.taichichuan.ie/Suaimhneas-Cost-of-classes.html


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