Convergence steps to 2019

Conmaicne Mara

I think that's the right term :pac:

How will low value entitlements rise between 2015 and 2019?

Conmaicne Mara

No one touching this with the proverbial barge pole so?

Reggie.

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

No one touching this with the proverbial barge pole so?

Looks that way

Pharaoh1

We had our first BTAP meeting this week and spent about an hour on this with the advisor giving a good presentation with different scenarios explored and lots of questions.
I found it very informative and imo you would probably need to do something like this and have someone to put questions to if you wanted to get a clear understanding.
We didn't get a copy of the presentation and they did stress that everything is not 100% finalised.
From my recollection it think an example was given of a €50 entitlement rising to approx €100 over the period.

LivInt20

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I think that's the right term :pac:

How will low value entitlements rise between 2015 and 2019?

Very simple: all entitlements must be valued at 60% of the national average entitlement value by 2019.

Increase will be in equal installments each year from 2015 to 2019

paddysdream

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

We had our first BTAP meeting this week and spent about an hour on this with the advisor giving a good presentation with different scenarios explored and lots of questions.
I found it very informative and imo you would probably need to do something like this and have someone to put questions to if you wanted to get a clear understanding.
We didn't get a copy of the presentation and they did stress that everything is not 100% finalised.
From my recollection it think an example was given of a €50 entitlement rising to approx €100 over the period.

As far as I know all entitlements will have to have a minimum value of 60% ofthe national average by 2019 ie average value at the moment(after cuts etc I think) will be about 256 euro so therefore the minimum you will receive in 2019 is about 155.

Think the above is agreed and set in stone for Ireland anyways.

Pharaoh1

paddysdream wrote: »

As far as I know all entitlements will have to have a minimum value of 60% ofthe national average by 2019 ie average value at the moment(after cuts etc I think) will be about 256 euro so therefore the minimum you will receive in 2019 is about 155.

Think the above is agreed and set in stone for Ireland anyways.

Thats right - the figures we saw were of the BPS (Basic Payment System) and did not include the 30% greening top up.
Of course this top up will apply to the vast majority of farmers more or less automatically. Many grain growers will have to make some significant enough changes though to get it.

Conmaicne Mara

Specifically I am asking about the shall we say % size of the raises each year between 2015 & 2019, not the final amount or the level of raises or drops from various amounts today which I know already



As for asking informed sources, I am asking for a reason

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Specifically I am asking about the shall we say % size of the raises each year between 2015 & 2019, not the final amount or the level of raises or drops from various amounts today which I know already



As for asking informed sources, I am asking for a reason

Think it was supposed to be in equal steps from the start till 2019

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Think it was supposed to be in equal steps from the start till 2019

I agree that that's what I have heard also.

But.............

Has that been firmly and finally concreted into the agreement?

just do it

paddysdream wrote: »

Think it was supposed to be in equal steps from the start till 2019

+1

just do it

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I agree that that's what I have heard also.

But.............

Has that been firmly and finally concreted into the agreement?

NO. The final word is what we're all waiting for

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I agree that that's what I have heard also.

But.............

Has that been firmly and finally concreted into the agreement?

Will it really matter ?

If for example you start with 60 euro in 2015 on say 40 hectares ie a total of 2400 then;

Example a getting equal increases(say 25 euro per entitlement) in 2016 2017 etc means you receive;
2400 in 2015
3400 in 2016
4400 in 2017
5400 in 2018
6400 in 2019

Total of 22000 over 5 years or an average of 4400 per year

Whereas you get say 50 increase in the first year and maybe 12.50 for the next year and 25 the third year and the last 12.50 in the last year then you would get;
2400 in 2015
4400 in 2016
4900 in 2017
5900 in 2018
6400 in 2019

Total of 24000 over 5 years or an average of 4800 per year

OK, difference of 400 per year but even taking that example its only 5 lambs on 40 hectares(rem.thats bigger than the average Irish farm) coming from a very very low base.Cant see their being any major payout in the first year or two of the new scheme and to be honest ,400 euro a year is not gonna make or break anyone who is trying to make a living from farming.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Will it really matter ?

If for example you start with 60 euro in 2015 on say 40 hectares ie a total of 2400 then;

Example a getting equal increases(say 25 euro per entitlement) in 2016 2017 etc means you receive;
2400 in 2015
3400 in 2016
4400 in 2017
5400 in 2018
6400 in 2019

Total of 22000 over 5 years or an average of 4400 per year

Whereas you get say 50 increase in the first year and maybe 12.50 for the next year and 25 the third year and the last 12.50 in the last year then you would get;
2400 in 2015
4400 in 2016
4900 in 2017
5900 in 2018
6400 in 2019

Total of 24000 over 5 years or an average of 4800 per year

OK, difference of 400 per year but even taking that example its only 5 lambs on 40 hectares(rem.thats bigger than the average Irish farm) coming from a very very low base.Cant see their being any major payout in the first year or two of the new scheme and to be honest ,400 euro a year is not gonna make or break anyone who is trying to make a living from farming.

Yes, it will matter to us below the average. Us who were excluded for various reasons from the last round. It will matter a great deal. My payment per hectare is €20.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Yes, it will matter to us below the average. Us who were excluded for various reasons from the last round. It will matter a great deal. My payment per hectare is €20.

Can I ask on how many hectares ?

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Can I ask on how many hectares ?

You can indeed, 89, I usually say 90 for handiness.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

You can indeed, 89, I usually say 90 for handiness.

Ok sorry .On 90 hectares front loading of even say 50% of the increase would make a difference.

Going from 1800 to 14400 or so would make a bit of a difference alright!!

You would seem to be one of the big winners from this cap reform so.An increase of 800% would be the envy of even the bould Larry Go**man himself!!

Dont forget that the sheep grassland money will be taken into account(gross or net? the minister wasnt very clear on this) in calculating you starting position in 2015.

just do it

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

You can indeed, 89, I usually say 90 for handiness.

I reckon you've hit the jackpot
2013 €20
2014 €20
2015 €48
2016 €76
2017 €104
2018 €132
2019 €160

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Ok sorry .On 90 hectares front loading of even say 50% of the increase would make a difference.

Going from 1800 to 14400 or so would make a bit of a difference alright!!

You would seem to be one of the big winners from this cap reform so.An increase of 800% would be the envy of even the bould Larry Go**man himself!!

Dont forget that the sheep grassland money will be taken into account(gross or net? the minister wasnt very clear on this) in calculating you starting position in 2015.

My sheep grassland is €300 and some odd Euro (I am limited in my AEOS plan to 40 ewes). I lost out heavily last time around not being allowed to develop my business with the commonage issues (not of my making, I only had quota for 30 ewes), I lost on the double.

But I didn't just ask for myself, genuinely. There are other lads farming away with all of their effort and not getting SFA share of the pie. Those lads and ladies will be getting screwed also if the steps are done in an unfair way.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

My sheep grassland is €300 and some odd Euro (I am limited in my AEPS plan to 40 ewes). I lost out heavily last time around not being allowed to develop my business with the commonage issues (not of my making, I only had quota for 30 ewes), I lost on the double.

But I didn't just ask for myself, genuinely. There are other lads farming away with all of their effort and not getting SFA share of the pie. Those lads and ladies will be getting screwed also if the steps are done in an unfair way.

To be honest you are the first person I have heard asking that particular question.Its a good one though.

In fairness its not a big topic round this way as very few would be that low or even much under the national average as far as I know.DED average here would be pushing close to double the national average payment per hectare.

Nothing unusual,just a lot of cattle were finished (including myself)plus a fair bit of stacking from tillage men(plus the beet money also).

Still cant see any government paying out too much upfront so reckon the best you can hope for is 5 easy pieces oops that should read five easy (for you,for me its cuts all the way)steps from 2015 to 2019.

On a different but related note ,see the minister is not for turning,or compromise, on the land eligibility issue on todays paper.
Again not a major issue around here but see a bit on the paper this week about it affecting people in more marginal land.
His (Coveneys) opinion seems to be that if the land is not farmable then its not eligible for payment ,no if's but's etc etc.

He reckons its less than 400 farmers out of over 130,000 who will be 20% or more short on land.He says its either that they take the hit or every farmer in the country faces a reduction to pay for it.Seems reasonable to me but then as I said it doesnt affect me.

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

I reckon you've hit the jackpot
2013 €20
2014 €20
2015 €48
2016 €76
2017 €104
2018 €132
2019 €160

Not when you consider the situation I have been forced to farm under for the past decade +, nope. Not allowed to build my business before the reference years, held at 25 ewes for five years under REPS, not allowed to increase above 40 in AEOS1.

Would you like to swap with me, if you had to do that many years in the above system first?

I am 100% in favour of working, I am being stopped from doing so.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

To be honest you are the first person I have heard asking that particular question.Its a good one though.

In fairness its not a big topic round this way as very few would be that low or even much under the national average as far as I know.DED average here would be pushing close to double the national average payment per hectare.

Nothing unusual,just a lot of cattle were finished (including myself)plus a fair bit of stacking from tillage men(plus the beet money also).

Still cant see any government paying out too much upfront so reckon the best you can hope for is 5 easy pieces oops that should read five easy (for you,for me its cuts all the way)steps from 2015 to 2019.

On a different but related note ,see the minister is not for turning,or compromise, on the land eligibility issue on todays paper.
Again not a major issue around here but see a bit on the paper this week about it affecting people in more marginal land.
His (Coveneys) opinion seems to be that if the land is not farmable then its not eligible for payment ,no if's but's etc etc.

He reckons its less than 400 farmers out of over 130,000 who will be 20% or more short on land.He says its either that they take the hit or every farmer in the country faces a reduction to pay for it.Seems reasonable to me but then as I said it doesnt affect me.

5 equal steps, up or down which ever side of the fence you're on, would be the fairest way for all concerned, IMO.

Land eligibility is going to be a pain in the arse here. The hill sector are I believe the only sector required to have a stocking rate to draw down SFP.

Past advice from officials have created overgrazing, undergrazing, and other wonderful things. We are told over or under grazed lands will not be in GAEC so not eligible for payment. Yet who pushed and advised numbers under the Premium system, and who slashed everyone under compulsory destocking?

Officials did.

Yet the farmer is supposed to pay for their inability to formulate a sustainable, or even sensible system.

Got 0 time for Mr Coveney.

paddysdream

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

5 equal steps, up or down which ever side of the fence you're on, would be the fairest way for all concerned, IMO.

Land eligibility is going to be a pain in the arse here. The hill sector are I believe the only sector required to have a stocking rate to draw down SFP.

Past advice from officials have created overgrazing, undergrazing, and other wonderful things. We are told over or under grazed lands will not be in GAEC so not eligible for payment. Yet who pushed and advised numbers under the Premium system, and who slashed everyone under compulsory destocking?

Officials did.

Yet the farmer is supposed to pay for their inability to formulate a sustainable, or even sensible system.

Got 0 time for Mr Coveney.

Agree with you there but the secret is to play the system ie sit down,look at the rules and work out what system or type of farming suits best whilst milking as much as you can with the least hassle.

Have no shame in admitting this.Others can sh**e all they like about how many cattle/sheep they have and their performance dlwg etc or how good their crop yields are but to me the only thing that matters at the end of the day is how much cold hard cash you can extract from the piece of land (big or small)that you were either fortunate or unfortunate! to have.

Hard work is all very well and good(have the bad back and other assorted pains to prove this;often have failed to put on my socks in the morning without a battle) but its a means to an end ,not an end in itself.

Conmaicne Mara

paddysdream wrote: »

Agree with you there but the secret is to play the system ie sit down,look at the rules and work out what system or type of farming suits best whilst milking as much as you can with the least hassle.

Have no shame in admitting this.Others can sh**e all they like about how many cattle/sheep they have and their performance dlwg etc or how good their crop yields are but to me the only thing that matters at the end of the day is how much cold hard cash you can extract from the piece of land (big or small)that you were either fortunate or unfortunate! to have.

Hard work is all very well and good(have the bad back and other assorted pains to prove this;often have failed to put on my socks in the morning without a battle) but its a means to an end ,not an end in itself.

When farm schemes are there, then people should go for them, if they suit their farm. That's my belief. I started farming to work with the animals and the land outside. Would die within in an office in days, better money or no.

I spoke in Athenry at an IFA meeting Monday night and said the same as I will here, I don't want to be collecting a "dole cheque" and sitting on my thumb at home. I can produce good sheep, when I want to. The issue for me is that the incentive isn't there for me due to the rules imposed on me, thanks to the previously mentioned "officials" actions.

While the money is going, I will be at the head of the que looking for it. But, I also want to farm.

just do it

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not when you consider the situation I have been forced to farm under for the past decade +, nope. Not allowed to build my business before the reference years, held at 25 ewes for five years under REPS, not allowed to increase above 40 in AEOS1.

Would you like to swap with me, if you had to do that many years in the above system first?

I am 100% in favour of working, I am being stopped from doing so.

Without any limitations, how many sheep could you have kept?

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

Without any limitations, how many sheep could you have kept?

I can't answer that question accurately because "reality" in hill farming has been distorted so much historically. Ideally, there would be a figure set on a commonage, which would be divided out based on the fractional share/s a farmer owned or leased.

As a farmer I can tell you how my sheep are doing on the commonage, what condition they come in to the holding in, how well their lambs are growing.

The problem in that is, the condition of my sheep doesn't reflect the sustainability of the commonage, until it's too late and severe damage get's done.

My problem was I started farming too late, when it was realised damage was being done thanks to the Premium and focus on numbers.

I am a farmer who wants to farm my land as a resource to be protected in an agricultural sense so that in 30 years time I will still be able to farm it, instead of short term raping the land for short term financial gain.

So that is where it is at the moment. It's a tangled mess that is coming up for thrashing out in the next few weeks.

I don't think that will answer your question.

If you were to ask me how many sheep would I like to farm, I would say something between 2 and 400 sheep. BUT, I would go look for extra land to do so. I am not stating that is what I should be allowed farm on my 90 hectares of mostly commonage!


There are more than me in this position. I was just tonight talking to a man, a man!, who lamented the fact that because of a scheme that came into being in 1991 today restricts him as a farmer.

He was 12 years old when that came in in 1991.

just do it

Sounds like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. You say it's up for discussion in the next few weeks. What's that about?

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

Sounds like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. You say it's up for discussion in the next few weeks. What's that about?

Commonage review. The current commonage framework plan (work of the devil if ever there was one) is outdated and to be replaced.

Basically there will be a lot of arguing between farmers, department, NPWS, and others to best fudge a way forward for managing the commonages.

Keeping commonages in GAEC will be the big issue.

For me and many more depending on what the "officials" say, my number of sheep could go up, or, depressingly, down or stay where they are.

They say publicly that they don't know if their Max/min stocking rate numbers for commonages are right or not. Yet we as hill farmers could be forced to adjust numbers, in some cases farmers going up many hundreds of sheep.

I am told the last time it was a nasty affair, by people who don't use that word lightly. They're expecting the same again.