Laptop choice for DAW?

Petroglyph

Just wondering what are the minimum specs for choosing a laptop for home recording. From what I've read so far, and i7 / quad core is a must and lots of memory (16?)

It will be used with a M-Audio Fasttrack Pro interface.

Does having an SSD drive make a huge difference (noise, speed)?

I'm guessing graphics don't really matter too much.

USB3 or Firewire for the interface?

Appreciate any inputs.

GTE

Depends how heavy the work is you are going to do. Lots of ramblings below!

My old DAW, before it was stolen, had a CPU rating from here of around 1400. That lets you get a sense of the speed of the machine with respect to what I am about to say.

It was an Intel Core 2 Duo based model with 2.3gHz and 1000 and something front side bus and 4GB of ram originally with two hard drive bays.

It very coped with huge projects, 40 tracks of ambitious band who wanted surround sound mixdowns or fairly big sound to moving image projects. I had to upgrade from 4GB to 8GB of RAM though, but after that noticeable increase in system speed I never had any issue after that. I doubt i would have noticed a jump to 16gb as I never reached any RAM limits according to the task manager.

You need at least one internal hard drive. Having the option to switch your CD drive with a HDD caddy is something I did with my current machine to give me two discs, one for the OS the other for the audio files.

The speed of the drives must be at 7200rpm. Any less and you will have overloading issues, even worse with one disc.

Firewire/USB does not mean as much as it used to with high capacity USB interfaces such as the bigger Focusrite Scarlets.

If you do get a Windows based machine you will need an Expresscard slot with a firewire expresscard from Maplin so you can have reliable audio. So, maybe that is a vote for USB.

On the Macbook side, you still need an adapter to use firewire interfaces to plug into Thunderbolt so half of dozen of one etc. in my opinion.

Don't get too preoccupied on noise with a laptop. Okay, avoid excessively loud ones by using reviews of course. HDDs will not contribute to any significant noise, the fan will be main contributor. The need for an SSD is not a prerequisite of a fast system. The 7200rpm disc(s) will be cheaper, higher capacity and will not give you bandwidth issues. There could be a case for an SSD if you only have one HDD in your laptop and you do not go the HDD caddy route, but I have never had to rely just on a a single 7200 disc before.

Petroglyph

Thanks very much for that.

I don't think the workload will be as heavy as you mentioned above. It's going to be just guitar, vocal and midi keyboard inputs. The software will probably start with the free ones first, with the hope of going for Pro Tools later on, and I just want to make sure I get something that can handle all that. Good to know the SSD is not a necessity to start with. I'll probably add an external one later. Quite the beginner at this point, so much appreciate the info.

GTE

Petroglyph wrote: »

Thanks very much for that.

I don't think the workload will be as heavy as you mentioned above. It's going to be just guitar, vocal and midi keyboard inputs. The software will probably start with the free ones first, with the hope of going for Pro Tools later on, and I just want to make sure I get something that can handle all that. Good to know the SSD is not a necessity to start with. I'll probably add an external one later. Quite the beginner at this point, so much appreciate the info.

I usually get ate for this, but don't assume Pro Tools is the way to go. Since you're a beginner, you can see if you try a few out (Cubase, Reaper, Pro Tools etc). Read a few Soundonsound articles from a few months ago (they are free). They have program specific articles most months. See if you can find Pro Tools 10 and Cubase 6.5 full reviews along with other progams (not too sure of their version numbers). In fact "pro tools review" should be enough.

The reason I make a big deal about this is that we are now at a stage where there is a more or less a level playing field out there for people to make their own decisions rather then being forced down a road of a certain program from a time when it was really the only option/best at what it did.

Regarding your usage, forget about the 7200gb discs and 8gb of RAM for now and see how you get on. Though, there are good deals about for laptops with good chunks of RAM anyway.

Regarding external drives, just beware of the specs of that too. As far as I remember even a 7200rpm external drive will give issues over USB2. If your laptop has eSata or USB3 then you should have no issues.

I would really recommend the HDD caddy route if you can get one for the laptop model you get/have. My old laptop was special in that it had dual hard drives, but I could only afford to upgrade the internal drives after a number of months so in the meantime I had this big external drive over eSata and it was brilliant, but one extra set of cables and power leads to bring around.

For my current system (Dell E series) I ditched the CD drive into a drawer for when I need it and got the HDD caddy to give me a second internal drive. Feckin smashing stuff!

Now, you're a newbie so I would imagine this could be info overload but post back if you ever have any issues.

mordeith

I wouldn't be overly concerned with having more than 4GB Ram. Unless you're rendering massive 3D models or heavy video encoding it's rarely an issue. I run FLStudio 11 on 4GB and only run into trouble if I'm running multiple VST synths which use a lot of CPU.

Petroglyph

Thanks folks.

So I don't have to spend hugh money on the latest and greatest laptop out there. That's good to hear. I like the HDD caddy option too.

I don't want to create a big software debate, as I've sat with a guy who swears by Cubase, another who swears by Pro tools, and now I've been intro'ed to FLStudio above - I guess I'll just have to pick one and go for it eventually. As mentioned above, most are all on level par nowadays.

All I really want for now, is to record the guitar and vocal, and add drums and other instruments through midi (strings etc). I'd like to be able to manipulate the drums easily - either manual create from scratch or use pre-existing and intro/fills/outro etc. The Cubase fan was using EZDrummer - are there other good software options? Pro-tools chap had an Alexis sr16 drum machine.

mordeith

Petroglyph wrote: »

Thanks folks.

So I don't have to spend hugh money on the latest and greatest laptop out there. That's good to hear. I like the HDD caddy option too.

I don't want to create a big software debate, as I've sat with a guy who swears by Cubase, another who swears by Pro tools, and now I've been intro'ed to FLStudio above - I guess I'll just have to pick one and go for it eventually. As mentioned above, most are all on level par nowadays.

All I really want for now, is to record the guitar and vocal, and add drums and other instruments through midi (strings etc). I'd like to be able to manipulate the drums easily - either manual create from scratch or use pre-existing and intro/fills/outro etc. The Cubase fan was using EZDrummer - are there other good software options? Pro-tools chap had an Alexis sr16 drum machine.

You can of course get 3rd party drum plugins like EZ Drummer of Superior Drummer.
I suppose it can depend on the style of music you're creating but you can easily create drum tracks using your DAW's step sequencer / piano roll. You can sample hits from existing songs or purchase sample packs.

Petroglyph

Another quick question - any issues with Windows8 and any of the DAWs?

GTE

Cubase 6.5 works perfectly. I have Pro Tools 11 which switches on, but I rarely use it enough to comment.

I would imagine each manufacture documents it pretty well. At this stage, with Windows 8 being out for a while and Windows 8.1 established (and brilliant, with Classic Shell start menu) I doubt you would find many issues with their latest releases.

SamAK

Petroglyph wrote: »

Thanks folks.

So I don't have to spend hugh money on the latest and greatest laptop out there. That's good to hear. I like the HDD caddy option too.

I don't want to create a big software debate, as I've sat with a guy who swears by Cubase, another who swears by Pro tools, and now I've been intro'ed to FLStudio above - I guess I'll just have to pick one and go for it eventually. As mentioned above, most are all on level par nowadays.

All I really want for now, is to record the guitar and vocal, and add drums and other instruments through midi (strings etc). I'd like to be able to manipulate the drums easily - either manual create from scratch or use pre-existing and intro/fills/outro etc. The Cubase fan was using EZDrummer - are there other good software options? Pro-tools chap had an Alexis sr16 drum machine.

Try them all. Try PT, try Logic (if using mac), try Ableton Live (my personal favourite), try Reason, try a good few and you should naturally settle for one that suits your workflow/style. I used to use FL Studio but it drove me nuts (mixer especially), and once I got around to figuring out Ableton I never looked back.

As for arranging drums, maybe consider an external controller for programming patterns. I find using a mouse soul destroying, no spontaneity to it! Some people have no problems with inputting midi info with a mouse but everyone is different!

hulkey

I started out using cubase, then went on to using ardour & rose garden for linux. I don't recommend that at all.

Then I tried ableton, and I think it's great, but for recording some guitar and adding midi drums and other instruments I think any DAW will do the trick, it's all down to preference really.

I will say one thing about the pc vs mac thing though. And I have always been an avid anti apple anything, which is why it hurt my pride to go out and buy one. But I got a mac, simply because they are near totally silent. This is a very big deal. I found when I was trying to be creative, the sound of the fan in the pc was literally all I could hear.

But another benefit that I found was that when adjusting latency settings, (you will become familiar with this beast if you are trying to record guitar/bass while playing along to a click or a vst drum kit) I had to do all manner of crazy tricks to get the correct offset settings while using a pc.

This is totally painless on mac.

They are over priced, but they get in the way of recording/writing music much less than a pc.

GTE

The likes of Scan and Inta Audio offer good audio machines which are quiet, but this is the crux of the matter with Mac vs PC, those specialist audio machines can be a bit expensive too. Research with the modern market will help the OP here. They have a number of manufacturers to look at now.

hulkey wrote: »

But another benefit that I found was that when adjusting latency settings, (you will become familiar with this beast if you are trying to record guitar/bass while playing along to a click or a vst drum kit) I had to do all manner of crazy tricks to get the correct offset settings while using a pc.

What do you mean? Delay compensation or adjusting the buffer?

EDIT:
The more I read it, the more it sounds like you had an issue with delay compensation. Perhaps only the basic versions of Cubase (SL, Artist) didn't have it but I have been using SX, 5 and 6.5 which all include delay compensation. I remember using an iffy interface once with a 4000(ish) buffer and there would be no recording issues with a click or VST drum kit.

hulkey

I mean both.

Adjusting the buffer is necessary when working with VSTs and recorded instruments. You disable some or reduce the quality of the VSTs and drop the buffer size to make your recording monitoring more responsive. Conversely you increase the buffer size so that you can play back at higher quality, doing mixdowns etc.

My point is, when using the DAW (and I would say with near certainty this is true of all DAWs) in this manner, you need to routinely change the buffer size.

When you do this on the pc, depending on what audio card/driver you are using, it rarely tells the truth about what it's actual latency is, so then you need to apply delay compensation.

Working out the actual latency is not the easiest thing to do, you need to send a signal from the DAW (the master with the click for example) out through one of the output jacks, but then back in though an input port. Then record the input, and measure time wise how many milliseconds off time it is, then apply that number to the delay compensation.

Pain in the arse.

But, on a mac, you do not have to do this, you just reset the buffer size and the latency settings are catered for. No out of time recordings.

Now I will say though that if you find a nice buffer size, one that does not require constant readjustment, you will only have to do this measuring once.

But still...

GTE

hulkey wrote: »

I mean both.

Adjusting the buffer is necessary when working with VSTs and recorded instruments. You disable some or reduce the quality of the VSTs and drop the buffer size to make your recording monitoring more responsive. Conversely you increase the buffer size so that you can play back at higher quality, doing mixdowns etc.

My point is, when using the DAW (and I would say with near certainty this is true of all DAWs) in this manner, you need to routinely change the buffer size.

When you do this on the pc, depending on what audio card/driver you are using, it rarely tells the truth about what it's actual latency is, so then you need to apply delay compensation.

Working out the actual latency is not the easiest thing to do, you need to send a signal from the DAW (the master with the click for example) out through one of the output jacks, but then back in though an input port. Then record the input, and measure time wise how many milliseconds off time it is, then apply that number to the delay compensation.

Pain in the arse.

But, on a mac, you do not have to do this, you just reset the buffer size and the latency settings are catered for. No out of time recordings.

Now I will say though that if you find a nice buffer size, one that does not require constant readjustment, you will only have to do this measuring once.

But still...

Right, I am surprised you have to dial in your own delay compensation.

It looks like I have always had the benefit of automatic delay compensation in with Cubase on Windows. I have had big projects with rewire and some full drum shell replacement rigs going on without a need to change the buffer size, unless it became too much for my machine but that is years gone by at this stage.

What makes and models of interface did have you experienced this? Sounds like a lot, but for me I have been limited to a few Focusrite, Mbox and MOTU units when VSTi plugins are being used.

What buffer sizes are you most comfortable with?

Were you using the same DAW version on the Windows and then when you switched to Mac?

hulkey

I really don't want to hijack the thread here by any means, I just wanted to point out that there is actual benefit in buying a mac over a pc.

It is something I would have turned my nose up at in the past, but I'm glad that I forked out the extra cash in the end.

About the delay compensation, I did not mention that I had been using the pc as the monitor, and that is a large factor of the problem I had. So recording guitar in direct to pc without using an amp to hear it.

And upon doing a very small amount of research, I think that this driver error compensation may be limited to ableton. Might be worth checking that out.

Gear I've used and noticed this has been on built in sound cards, realtek i think, doesn't matter, Petroglyph should be looking to get an interface anyway. But I've been using presonous gear. Firestudio and 22vsl interfaces.

Buffer size, like I said I change them alot, if I just want to play the guitar I'll use 8MB, if I want to record a lead of difficult piece, I'll go up to 16, most other times I'll leave it to the default 512MB, I've never needed to increase it further.

Versions, yes same ones, I was doing some mixes on the pc while I had recorded them with the laptop because it's more comfortable working with a desktop.

GTE

hulkey wrote: »

I really don't want to hijack the thread here by any means, I just wanted to point out that there is actual benefit in buying a mac over a pc.

It is something I would have turned my nose up at in the past, but I'm glad that I forked out the extra cash in the end.

About the delay compensation, I did not mention that I had been using the pc as the monitor, and that is a large factor of the problem I had. So recording guitar in direct to pc without using an amp to hear it.

And upon doing a very small amount of research, I think that this driver error compensation may be limited to ableton. Might be worth checking that out.

Gear I've used and noticed this has been on built in sound cards, realtek i think, doesn't matter, Petroglyph should be looking to get an interface anyway. But I've been using presonous gear. Firestudio and 22vsl interfaces.

Buffer size, like I said I change them alot, if I just want to play the guitar I'll use 8MB, if I want to record a lead of difficult piece, I'll go up to 16, most other times I'll leave it to the default 512MB, I've never needed to increase it further.

Versions, yes same ones, I was doing some mixes on the pc while I had recorded them with the laptop because it's more comfortable working with a desktop.

You're not hijacking the thread, I'm just highlighting that the issues you had are not OS dependant. Your issue was created due to a lack of direct monitoring functionality on your soundcard with the possibility that the DAW you were using did not have functioning delay compensation features, if present at all.

Regardless, I would not advise someone to base a decision on whether or not to buy a certain platform on the issues you have had as they are from experiences internal soundcards which generally would not have a direct monitoring function and would suffer from horrendous buffer requirements depending on what the computer manufacturer has installed.

That is that anyway. Categorically, Mac vs PC does not have an impact on the issues you're basing a Mac vs PC debate on. There are other issues in the debate (which would then derail the thread slightly) but certainly not what's been highlighted.

As an aside, if you're using an amp sim with a guitar to provide a monitor, you could run that at low enough buffers to give a form of direct monitoring so from that front it sounds like you're benefitting from better CPU power from having a newer generation of hardware spec with respect to usable buffers rather than any operating system perk.

The buffer is in samples you mean?

SamAK

hulkey wrote: »

I will say one thing about the pc vs mac thing though. And I have always been an avid anti apple anything, which is why it hurt my pride to go out and buy one. But I got a mac, simply because they are near totally silent. This is a very big deal. I found when I was trying to be creative, the sound of the fan in the pc was literally all I could hear.

If you want a silent PC, may I suggest a water cooling kit!

http://lifehacker.com/5940236/a-beginners-guide-to-water-cooling-your-computer

GTE

SamAK wrote: »

If you want a silent PC, may I suggest a water cooling kit!

http://lifehacker.com/5940236/a-beginners-guide-to-water-cooling-your-computer

That could work. If you are willing to spend a bit more money on the PC system, the specialist audio PC makers like Scan look like they provide whisper quiet machines. They do some machines with water cooling, but I am not too sure if they do the audio ones with it or not.

An advantage of Mac is that they they don't do the lower to mid range machines that PC manufactures do so sometimes noise is not dealt with in a like for like way.

hulkey

bbk wrote: »

I'm just highlighting that the issues you had are not OS dependant. Your issue was created due to a lack of direct monitoring functionality on your soundcard with the possibility that the DAW you were using did not have functioning delay compensation features, if present at all.

bbk wrote: »

Categorically, Mac vs PC does not have an impact on the issues you're basing a Mac vs PC debate on.

It is very much OS dependant. I do not need to apply driver error compensation using the mac, I do have to measure and apply it using a pc.

bbk wrote: »

Regardless, I would not advise someone to base a decision on whether or not to buy a certain platform on the issues you have had as they are from experiences internal soundcards which generally would not have a direct monitoring function and would suffer from horrendous buffer requirements depending on what the computer manufacturer has installed.

This is based on experience using external audio interfaces (Presonous). I mentioned I had previously used internal sound cards because, well I'm sure everyone would attempt that at some stage, and everyone discovers the same thing, i.e. "don't do it". So I mentioned that as a mistake I made.

bbk wrote: »

As an aside, if you're using an amp sim with a guitar to provide a monitor, you could run that at low enough buffers to give a form of direct monitoring so from that front it sounds like you're benefitting from better CPU power from having a newer generation of hardware spec with respect to usable buffers rather than any operating system perk.

This makes no sense to me. You require a larger buffer size to combat a poor CPU. Having a lightning quick CPU enables you to run with low buffer, which translates to near instantaneous latency. When I run with very low latency e.g. 8MB, the audio crackles, snaps, and pops from time to time as the CPU is struggling to process the audio in time. This is the trade off, low latency = high CPU consumption.

bbk wrote: »

The buffer is in samples you mean?

The buffer is in memory size, sample size can vary and so can sampling frequency. I'm sure they have a reason to present this information in memory consumption rather than number of samples, I don't know what that is, though I could speculate.

I know this is a particularly ratty response, so I apologise for that, but it would seem that you have disregarded the vast majority of the answers I gave to your questions.

But again, I may have left out details, I don't want to over complicate things for people who are not experienced with this stuff.

hulkey

SamAK wrote: »

If you want a silent PC, may I suggest a water cooling kit!

http://lifehacker.com/5940236/a-beginners-guide-to-water-cooling-your-computer

I had considered doing this, I also considered putting the pc in a different room and extending the peripheral cables!

But I went the mac route because I do bring a laptop to jamming/practice sessions and record the whole thing. My windows based laptop was proving incapable of recording a full 2+ hour session reliably (crashing and such) so I had to replace that too anyway.

I WAS going to get a toshiba with the same spec for half the price, but I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't.

GTE

hulkey wrote: »

It is very much OS dependant. I do not need to apply driver error compensation using the mac, I do have to measure and apply it using a pc.

Driver error compensation? What are you mean? Are you talking about delay compensation? I have never had to set delay compensation values either, it is all automatic like it would be on a Mac with the same DAW* and equipment.

*Provided the DAW supports it, which they should these days.

hulkey wrote: »

This is based on experience using external audio interfaces (Presonous).

Taking the internal card for reasons we have already established, are they the only interfaces you have experienced this on? (Firestudio and 22VSL)

hulkey wrote: »

This makes no sense to me. You require a larger buffer size to combat a poor CPU. Having a lightning quick CPU enables you to run with low buffer, which translates to near instantaneous latency. When I run with very low latency e.g. 8MB, the audio crackles, snaps, and pops from time to time as the CPU is struggling to process the audio in time. This is the trade off, low latency = high CPU consumption.

You misunderstood and have restated that part of the post. From what you said it sounds like you had a poor Windows machine with respect to CPU and hard disc spindle speed.

hulkey wrote: »

The buffer is in memory size, sample size can vary and so can sampling frequency. I'm sure they have a reason to present this information in memory consumption rather than number of samples, I don't know what that is, though I could speculate.

Who is they? What DAW and where is the setting found?

It is not sample size, it is the buffer size in samples. Same goes for memory size, a buffer in megabytes as it seems that is what you are presented with.

hulkey wrote: »

I know this is a particularly ratty response, so I apologise for that, but it would seem that you have disregarded the vast majority of the answers I gave to your questions. But again, I may have left out details, I don't want to over complicate things for people who are not experienced with this stuff.

In the past 6 or 7 years of setting up Windows based DAWs, I have never come across the shortcomings you have had with Windows. By all means, PM me with as much detail as you wish as your set of circumstances for switching platform sound, interesting to say the least. Then again, this is a music production forum so the details are part in parcel it anyway.

In the years of Mac vs. PC debates, there have been many reasons to and for each side but in terms of capability and since Windows 7, there have been no operational reasons to go for one platform over the other unless your desired DAW was not available on one of them.

Petroglyph

Decided to go for this one I think..

Asus X550CC Intel® Core™ i5 Processor, 8Gb RAM, 1Tb Hard Drive, 15.6 inch Laptop with 2Gb Dedicated Graphics

Will probably put in an SSD at some stage.

GTE

Petroglyph wrote: »

Decided to go for this one I think..

Asus X550CC Intel® Core™ i5 Processor, 8Gb RAM, 1Tb Hard Drive, 15.6 inch Laptop with 2Gb Dedicated Graphics

Will probably put in an SSD at some stage.

You think? I'm guessing you haven't committed. Have a check on the SoundonSound forums to see if anyone has experience of those U processors. Twas a choice for my latest system, new to me.

You could get a large capacity 7200 rpm disc for the time being and upgrade to the SSD if there are issues. I'm concerned the included disc would be 5400 rpm, but my phone isn't making research easy :-) I'm sure you could sell the 1tb disc for some change if it is 5400. Would probably work out cheaper than configuring the laptop with a 7200.

Petroglyph

Lenovo G510 4th Gen Core i7 8GB 1TB Windows 8.1 Laptop.

I have a 240GB SSD that I got for my desktop, but will save for this.

Do they usually ship with a windows disk so I can load it onto the SSD?

Dravokivich

You'll need to create a restore disc yourself.