Reference Checks

psalbmb

Hi Quick question, If your previous employer gives you an unfavourable reference to your potential employer and as a result you are not successful due to this, are you entitled to request the reference that was provided either in writing or verbally under the freedom or information act and/or data protection act?, and If so, how would one go about this request?

Many Thanks,

234

You might get it under the Data Protection Acts, the Data Protection Commissioner's website is very good for info on this.

On another note, your former employer was monumentally stupid in giving such a reference. Employers can leave themselves open to actions in negligence when giving references. Usually they should simply give a reference outlining dates of employment, duties and reasons for leaving.

The_Minister

Much of the time these things happen on a nod and a wink.

Did X work for you?
Yes he did from - to -

Ah, and how did he get on with the other staff?

(Long silence, then vaguly positive euphemism)


HR people know how to get the message.

ScouseMouse

Good reference:
Johnny worked here 5 years. Was always helpful, pleasant, hard worker. Very good at his job, sorry to see him go.


Bad Reference:
Johnny worked here 5 years. His performance was acceptable.


I have seen it done like this. Not sure if you have any comeback or entitlement to know what was said. Even if you do get it, it could be like the above.

godtabh

Why would you give a future employer a reference from an employer who isn't going to sing your praises? I only ever use two references cause I know exactly what they will say

bbam

Lads above are right.
I've given and received poor references in the past none of it written.

Also, I'm sure that as long as the details in the bad reference can be backed up then it's ok. For example - if you had been terminated due to disciplinary action which of course would be on file. It would be OK to mention this as it's TRUE and FACTUAL.

And employees not hired due to bad reference would never be told this. We'd just say they weren't successful and that more suitably qualified and experienced candidates got the position.

psalbmb

bbam wrote: »

Lads above are right.
I've given and received poor references in the past none of it written.

Also, I'm sure that as long as the details in the bad reference can be backed up then it's ok. For example - if you had been terminated due to disciplinary action which of course would be on file. It would be OK to mention this as it's TRUE and FACTUAL.

And employees not hired due to bad reference would never be told this. We'd just say they weren't successful and that more suitably qualified and experienced candidates got the position.

something similar happened above. I was UNFAIRLY dismissed, which when brought before the tribunal, it transpired that they had no evidence to back up their claims... I also received a confidentiality agreement so thats why I am wondering. so how would I go about requesting information legally for a reference that was given in regards to me.

I did email the potential employer for feedback and for her to clarify what she meant when she stated " something came up with your reference but obviously for legal reasons i cant go into it".

Bepolite

The_Minister wrote: »

Much of the time these things happen on a nod and a wink.

Did X work for you?
Yes he did from - to -

Ah, and how did he get on with the other staff?

(Long silence, then vaguly positive euphemism)


HR people know how to get the message.

Hence the reasons most large businesses won't give out verbal references. The above scenario, if so prevalent as people seem to suggest may amount to defamation. If effect you may as well say X id a complete knob and I wouldn't hire him if he were the last person alive. At least you'd get the satisfaction.

What's much more likely is A knows B in the same industry and gets the inside track on why X is looking for a job, both good and bad. It actually ends up being pretty balanced as so long as you didn't completely piss off B, the fully story of X is likely to be communicated.

Bloody hell I think I just descended into one of the scenarios a past lecturer of mine once did where it was clear to everyone he'd lost the run of what he was saying and he was just adding parties to the scenario while he tried to get back on track. Said lecturer liked to name the parties, A being Andrew, B being Ben, we knew something was up when Nigel entered the equation and panic started to set in around Stephen.

Bepolite

psalbmb wrote: »

something similar happened above. I was UNFAIRLY dismissed, which when brought before the tribunal, it transpired that they had no evidence to back up their claims... I also received a confidentiality agreement so thats why I am wondering. so how would I go about requesting information legally for a reference that was given in regards to me.

I did email the potential employer for feedback and for her to clarify what she meant when she stated " something came up with your reference but obviously for legal reasons i cant go into it".

Obviously for legal reasons here's a data access request, unless for some odd reason the data collected by potential employers is somehow exempt from data protection. I welcome any steer on this.

The_Minister

godtabh wrote: »

Why would you give a future employer a reference from an employer who isn't going to sing your praises? I only ever use two references cause I know exactly what they will say

Many employers now ask specifically for a reference from your last employer.

Arbiter of Good Taste

The_Minister wrote: »

Many employers now ask specifically for a reference from your last employer.

Is that correct? When you say "last" do you mean your current employer or immediately previous to current?

psalbmb

Bepolite wrote: »

Obviously for legal reasons here's a data access request, unless for some odd reason the data collected by potential employers is somehow exempt from data protection. I welcome any steer on this.

so how would one go about making a data access request? Would it be through the potential employer, former employer, or the commissioner? anyone who could shed some light on this, would be great

234

psalbmb wrote: »

so how would one go about making a data access request? Would it be through the potential employer, former employer, or the commissioner? anyone who could shed some light on this, would be great

Google:
https://www.google.ie/#q=data+access+request

No Pants

The_Minister wrote: »

Many employers now ask specifically for a reference from your last employer.

I don't think I've ever given HR contact details for a reference, it's always been an actual person and verbal rather than written. Never more than the last two employers.

Glinda!

I attended for second round interview for a law traineeship with two partners and a recruitment consultant. I was half an hr late after being stuck n horrendous traffic and endured a hour long gruelling interview which by the end had me in tears. I didnt even see the point in sending a thank you email after it I ws just delighted to get out of there! I would usually attach my reference contacts to this email so I hadnt provided any. And for this reason I hadnt spoken to my employer about attending for interview or providing a reference.

Yesterday I receive a call from the recruiter to say that she had contacted my current employer. She said that although my employer was surprised she spoke very highly of me and gave me a good reference.

I felt soo bad on a personal level that my employer who is extremely good to me had been put in that position and also was extremely unprofessional and unlike me. I had a very awkward conversion with my employer this morning who told me that what the recruiter had said to her and in several instances had misrepresented what I had said at the interview and needless to say the whole situation has put me in a less trusting position in my employers eyes.

I am then called a second time by the recruiter today to be told that because my current employer was not aware I was attending for interview they were withdrawing their offer.

I am interested to hear others opinion on this because the whole ordeal has naturally hugely upset me and very honestly has I feel affected my job and career.

Any advices much appreciated

Arbiter of Good Taste

Glinda! wrote: »

I attended for second round interview for a law traineeship with two partners and a recruitment consultant. I was half an hr late after being stuck n horrendous traffic and endured a hour long gruelling interview which by the end had me in tears. I didnt even see the point in sending a thank you email after it I ws just delighted to get out of there! I would usually attach my reference contacts to this email so I hadnt provided any. And for this reason I hadnt spoken to my employer about attending for interview or providing a reference.

Yesterday I receive a call from the recruiter to say that she had contacted my current employer. She said that although my employer was surprised she spoke very highly of me and gave me a good reference.

I felt soo bad on a personal level that my employer who is extremely good to me had been put in that position and also was extremely unprofessional and unlike me. I had a very awkward conversion with my employer this morning who told me that what the recruiter had said to her and in several instances had misrepresented what I had said at the interview and needless to say the whole situation has put me in a less trusting position in my employers eyes.

I am then called a second time by the recruiter today to be told that because my current employer was not aware I was attending for interview they were withdrawing their offer.

I am interested to hear others opinion on this because the whole ordeal has naturally hugely upset me and very honestly has I feel affected my job and career.

Any advices much appreciated

I find that shocking on a number of levels
(1) I assume that you did not give the recruiter permission to contact your current employer, in which case there is a very serious breach of trust. I would be reluctant to use that recruitment firm again and would send a letter of complaint to the head of the recruitment firm.
(2) who tells their current employer that they are actively looking for a new job?!!?

On a separate point. Interviews for law firms are generally gruelling. I'm afraid you will have to grow a thicker skin, but otherwise best of luck.

Glinda!

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I find that shocking on a number of levels
(1) I assume that you did not give the recruiter permission to contact your current employer, in which case there is a very serious breach of trust. I would be reluctant to use that recruitment firm again and would send a letter of complaint to the head of the recruitment firm.
(2) who tells their current employer that they are actively looking for a new job?!!?

On a separate point. Interviews for law firms are generally gruelling. I'm afraid you will have to grow a thicker skin, but otherwise best of luck.

Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to doubt myself that somehow i had done something wrong.

The recruiter was used by the law firm themselves. I was frazzled because i was so late i would normally not be phazed by such interviews you learn n this game you have to be thick skinned as you rightly said.

I feel really hard done by. The whole process is difficult enough I never invisaged anything like this would happen

Arbiter of Good Taste

Don't worry, something will come along. Just use the interview as experience and move on. About 10 years ago I had a large law firm approach me through their recruiter. I told them I wasn't interested in interviewing. Recruiter insisted. I went to the interview, whereupon they left me waiting for half an hour in reception (one regret in my life is not walking out then and there). 10 years later I'm still waiting for them to follow up. I'm guessing I didn't get the role.

Don't take it personally.

seamus

A recruiter contacting your current employer to request a reference check is a breach of the data protection act in itself.

The fact that you are interviewing is private information which the recruiter is not entitled to reveal to anyone without your authorisation. They are most definitely not allowed to tell your employer what you said in interview. Jesus christ, an interviewer is not allowed discuss with colleagues what was said in an interview unless those colleagues are specifically involved in the hiring process. I would make a formal complaint to the data protection commissioner about the conduct of this recruiter.

Ring the recruiter and tell them to withdraw your name from their files, then write a letter of complaint to the head of their firm, specifically mentioning the recruiter who screwed you and the fact that you've lodged a formal complaint with the data protection commissioner.

Glinda!

seamus wrote: »

A recruiter contacting your current employer to request a reference check is a breach of the data protection act in itself.

The fact that you are interviewing is private information which the recruiter is not entitled to reveal to anyone without your authorisation. They are most definitely not allowed to tell your employer what you said in interview. Jesus christ, an interviewer is not allowed discuss with colleagues what was said in an interview unless those colleagues are specifically involved in the hiring process. I would make a formal complaint to the data protection commissioner about the conduct of this recruiter.

Ring the recruiter and tell them to withdraw your name from their files, then write a letter of complaint to the head of their firm, specifically mentioning the recruiter who screwed you and the fact that you've lodged a formal complaint with the data protection commissioner.

Thank you for your reply. The recruiter was there at the firms request and i dont recall exactly where she was from. I want to make a complaint as you say but honestly I feel I have wasted so much time and money doing interviews etc when I also should be studying for my last two FE-1 exams I feel it would be foolish of me to waste more of my time making a complaint when reality is its not going to remedy the fact that i have lost out on a training contract.

To make matters worse I had another promising second round interview on Wednesday that I had hoped to speak to my employer about giving a reference for. But after this ordeal there is no way I could even bring it up without me being at serious risk of having no job!

RelaxBoy

I was sacked from a call centre for call avoidance earlier in the year. Have been getting interviews non-stop since then, various different roles and some big organisations.
Recently decided to give an Internship a bash as so many interviews had come to nothing. I checked with the social welfare and I was eligible , and encouraged to apply for one.
Anyway, had an interview with a firm who decided to make the interview as if they were hiring; telling me the first 6 months would be prohibationary etc etc even tho it was for a 6 month internship and they made that clear, but my chance of being hired full time was high.
By the time. I had got home in the car, I received an email saying how well. I had done, and an application form attached. I was also asked for 2 character references, with the layout on a sheet provided by the firm.
Now I didn't use my last employment where I was dismissed obviously, I tracked down 2 old employers who filled out the forms and gave me very favourable references. The hiring firm were okay with it not being my last 2 employers directly. But they did ask why I hasn't used them as a reference. I explained in detail in an email I had been dismissed for misconduct. They said Ok, can we still ring them. I said Yes, go ahead, here's their number.
A few days later I received an email where the hiring firm for the internship had pulled a complete u-turn, and withdrawn their offer, presumably after speaking with my previous employer.
How do I find out what is being said by them in terms of a 'bad reference' and should I remove them from my CV altogether? I did work there for 3 years!

Pat Mustard

If I was going to say something bad about somebody, I wouldn't put it in writing.

As regards whether you should remove the previous employer from your CV, if they dismissed you for misconduct it isn't likely that they are going to sing your praises.

However, if you get a new job, you will need to bring in your P.45 from the previous employer. Therefore, I'm unsure how you could effectively erase the previous employer from your CV without the possibility of being found out: at least at this stage.

This thread can be moved to the Work & Jobs forum, if you wish.

RainyDay

The Mustard wrote: »

As regards whether you should remove the previous employer from your CV, if they dismissed you for misconduct it isn't likely that they are going to sing your praises.

However, if you get a new job, you will need to bring in your P.45 from the previous employer. Therefore, I'm unsure how you could effectively erase the previous employer from your CV without the possibility of being found out: at least at this stage.

P45 isn't the problem. Explaining the 3 year gap on your CV is a big problem. HR101 class is about looking for gaps on CVs. The HR guys know all the tricks (Oh I was travelling in Australia, Oh where did you work in Australia etc etc).


Is there anyone in the call centre who would give you a positive reference?

Pat Mustard

RainyDay wrote: »

P45 isn't the problem. Explaining the 3 year gap on your CV is a big problem.

Absolutely. I assume that he is not planning to replace the details of his previous employer with a 3 year vacuum. It wouldn't make much sense to do that.

Bepolite

Despite the conspiracy theories abound of a secret code of pauses before responding amongst HR operatives most employers give the following reference:

To whom it may concern,

Joe Bloggs worked for us in the role of Sales dogsbody from the 13/08/12 to 15/08/14.

Yours Faithfully,

HR Monkey 47

Simply tell any future employer that they don't give phone references but here are two managers that will give an unofficial reference and pick people that you didn't piss off. Let them request a written reference from anyone they like.

RelaxBoy

Has anyone any advice / opinion on this scenario :

I was asked to go for an interview which I accepted, however circumstances changed and I contacted the employer to say I could no longer make the agreed day or time. I was asked do I want to withdraw my application or reschedule. Of course I rescheduled, and upon this agreement was asked to bring 2 x character references and contact details for 2 referees (which could be the same)

Now I had an interview with this organisation only a few weeks previous, but for a different role. I explained that I could not obtain a reference from my last employer, as I was dismissed, but they were made aware of this at the 1st interview, and it was not an issue. I could provide references no problem, and I actually obtained 3 for this.

I then received an email telling me how 'reference checks were a fundamental part of the company hiring policy, unfortunately in your case we cannot proceed with interview' .

What the absolute fooock ?? ! ?

Stheno

RelaxBoy wrote: »

Has anyone any advice / opinion on this scenario :

I was asked to go for an interview which I accepted, however circumstances changed and I contacted the employer to say I could no longer make the agreed day or time. I was asked do I want to withdraw my application or reschedule. Of course I rescheduled, and upon this agreement was asked to bring 2 x character references and contact details for 2 referees (which could be the same)

Now I had an interview with this organisation only a few weeks previous, but for a different role. I explained that I could not obtain a reference from my last employer, as I was dismissed, but they were made aware of this at the 1st interview, and it was not an issue. I could provide references no problem, and I actually obtained 3 for this.

I then received an email telling me how 'reference checks were a fundamental part of the company hiring policy, unfortunately in your case we cannot proceed with interview' .

What the absolute fooock ?? ! ?

It could be the fact you can't provide a reference from your last employer that caused them to cancel.

In my last jobhunt, it was a condition to provide a reference from my previous employer.

gozunda

Stheno wrote: »

It could be the fact you can't provide a reference from your last employer that caused them to cancel.

In my last jobhunt, it was a condition to provide a reference from my previous employer.

^^^^^

Blatant Employer / organisation doublespeak

Employer to exiting employee: we don't provide references

Employer to potential employee: we require a reference from your previous employer

WTF

Time some employers stopped being two faced.

Stheno

gozunda wrote: »

^^^^^

Blatant Employer / organisation doublespeak

Employer to exiting employee: we don't provide references

Employer to potential employee: we require a reference from your previous employer

WTF

Time some employers stopped being two faced.

The employer I am with now does provide references and has stated so when I checked tbh.

I was also fortunate that I advised my then employer of the requirement for a reference and they were happy to oblige.

It was also part of a background check, once I consented to the check they not only contacted the referees I gave, but the HR depts of all of the companies I had worked for for a period of five years to independantly verify what I had provided.

gozunda

Stheno wrote: »

The employer I am with now does provide references and has stated so when I checked tbh.

I was also fortunate that I advised my then employer of the requirement for a reference and they were happy to oblige.

It was also part of a background check, once I consented to the check they not only contacted the referees I gave, but the HR depts of all of the companies I had worked for for a period of five years to independantly verify what I had provided.

Luckily for you. The scenario of no references provided / references requested by employers is increasingly common. Definitely a case of double standards imo

davo10

gozunda wrote: »

Luckily for you. The scenario of no references provided / references requested by employers is increasingly common. Definitely a case of double standards imo

It may be becoming more common in some sectors, but the majority of employers still look for some type of assurance when it comes to deciding whether to employ an applicant, and that assurance most often takes the form of your previous employer(a) opinion of you as an employee.

The reason for a reference is to check whether you are a good employee and will fit in to the organisation, the best way of getting some insight into this is to check with a previous employer. If you are dismissed from a job or were not a good employee, how can a previous employer be expected to truthfully give you a good reference?

Each particular industry is like a small community, often the employers either know, or know of, their counterparts. Very few employers now physically write references, in most cases it is done over the phone and unless the conversation is recorded, there is no physical evidence to request.

I have given and received references about employees which were less than gushing, I have also given and received references which were excellent, the ones I received now work for me, the ones I gave now work for the person who phoned me, the others, well I don't know where they are, I never heard about them again.

That's not "double standards", that's reality, hence the benefit of being a good employee and leaving on good terms.

I assume one of the solicitors here will confirm that all that is required of a previous employer is that they are truthful with their reference to avoid an accusation of tortious interference. Employers are not required to tell a new employer that you were a model employee just because that is what you want them to say in order to get a new job.

davo10

Bepolite wrote: »

Despite the conspiracy theories abound of a secret code of pauses before responding amongst HR operatives most employers give the following reference:

To whom it may concern,

Joe Bloggs worked for us in the role of Sales dogsbody from the 13/08/12 to 15/08/14.

Yours Faithfully,

HR Monkey 47

Simply tell any future employer that they don't give phone references but here are two managers that will give an unofficial reference and pick people that you didn't piss off. Let them request a written reference from anyone they like.

And if they say, "well you work with the managers but we want to talk to the employer/HR dept of your previous employer", if you say "no", then they as you say, simply tell you to " please PFO then" as per RelaxBoy's experience.

If it's a business run directly by the owner, employers don't want to talk to your manager/buddy, they want to talk to the person in charge of employing you, that person will have received feedback from your manager. I appreciate huge multinationals may be different as your employer may be in another country, but they will have operational managers/department heads/hr departments.

Bepolite

davo10 wrote: »

And if they say, "well you work with the managers but we want to talk to the employer/HR dept of your previous employer", if you say "no", then they as you say, simply tell you to " please PFO then" as per RelaxBoy's experience.

If it's a business run directly by the owner, employers don't want to talk to your manager/buddy, they want to talk to the person in charge of employing you, that person will have received feedback from your manager. I appreciate huge multinationals may be different as your employer may be in another country, but they will have operational managers/department heads/hr departments.

Almost every business, no matter the size will have someone designated to fill the HR role. Almost every business with sane management will side step potential issues with a bad reference by simply offering a basic written reference. Many businesses will not allow direct line managers to give references for a number of legal reasons.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

It may be becoming more common in some sectors, but the majority of employers still look for some type of assurance when it comes to deciding whether to employ an applicant, and that assurance most often takes the form of your previous employer(a) opinion of you as an employee.

Then it follows that some employers should grow a pair and treat employees equitably. Hiding behind HR doublespeak does nothing for such dubious employment practices.

davo10 wrote: »

The reason for a reference is to check whether you are a good employee and will fit in to the organisation, the best way of getting some insight into this is to check with a previous employer. If you are dismissed from a job or were not a good employee, how can a previous employer be expected to truthfully give you a good reference?

.

And where an employer is corrupt / has been reported for dubious behavior or is less than ethical - how are employees expected to progress? There are many 'poor employers' out there. Unfortunately it remains that the balance of power lies with the employer - this does not mean that employers are always either fair or truthful.

davo10 wrote: »

Each particular industry is like a small community, often the employers either know, or know of, their counterparts. Very few employers now physically write references, in most cases it is done over the phone and unless the conversation is recorded, there is no physical evidence to request.

This is no reason as to why an employer should not be willing to write a reference. In the case of prospective employers looking for written references then this is a clear case of double standards. Something that needs to be addressed under employment legislation imo.

davo10 wrote: »

I have given and received references about employees which were less than gushing, I have also given and received references which were excellent, the ones I received now work for me, the ones I gave now work for the person who phoned me, the others, well I don't know where they are, I never heard about them again.

Again presuming that all 'employers' to be the purveyors of truth is naive in the extreme. It is more logical to rely on a variety of methods and not just ex employers for a balance of information.

davo10 wrote: »

That's not "double standards", that's reality, hence the benefit of being a good employee and leaving on good terms.

Oh yes it is. And where employers are less than fair or equitable towards their employees? How will that work?

davo10 wrote: »

I assume one of the solicitors here will confirm that all that is required of a previous employer is that they are truthful with their reference to avoid an accusation of tortious interference. Employers are not required to tell a new employer that you were a model employee just because that is what you want them to say in order to get a new job.

Nobody said they did. It's a pity that the attitude appears to be that all employers are somehow above reproach some whilst demanding references will refuse to provide the same for employees wishing to legitimately progress their careers.

davo10

gozunda wrote: »

Then it follows that some employers should grow a pair and treat employees equitably. Hiding behind HR doublespeak does nothing for such dubious employment practices.

.

And where an employer is corrupt / has been reported for dubious behavior or is less than ethical - how are employees expected to progress? There are many 'poor employers' out there. Unfortunately it remains that the balance of power lies with the employer - this does not mean that employers are always either fair or truthful.



This is no reason as to why an employer should not be willing to write a reference. In the case of prospective employers looking for written references then this is a clear case of double standards. Something that needs to be addressed under employment legislation imo.



Again presuming that all 'employers' to be the purveyors of truth is naive in the extreme. It is more logical to rely on a variety of methods and not just ex employers for a balance of information.



Oh yes it is. And where employers are less than fair or equitable towards their employees? How will that work?



Nobody said they did. It's a pity that the attitude appears to be that all employers are somehow above reproach some whilst demanding references will refuse to provide the same for employees wishing to legitimately progress their careers.

The response to all the above points is the same, the new employer can ask for a reference, the previous employer only has to give a truthful one, if any at all. If you don't think that's fair, so be it, you are neither the new nor the previous employer and as the lawyers on here will confirm, all of that is absolutely legal.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

The response to all the above points is the same, the new employer can ask for a reference, the previous employer only has to give a truthful one, if any at all. If you don't think that's fair, so be it, you are neither the new nor the previous employer and as the lawyers on here will confirm, all of that is absolutely legal.

It's not an opinion - it is what is happening on the ground. Ethical behaviour by employers towards employees needs to part of normal employment practice. Unfortunately some employers are seeking to have all the advantages and no responsibilities. It's a bigger shame that such behavior is advocated as a standard process.

davo10

gozunda wrote: »

It's not an opinion - it is what is happening on the ground. Ethical behaviour by employers towards employees needs to part of normal employment practice. Unfortunately some employers are seeking to have all the advantages and no responsibilities. It's a bigger shame that such behavior is advocated as a standard process.

Until there are 20 employers scrambling to employ every single employee and not the other way round, an employer has a right to offer a job conditional on references. An applicant can stand outside the business and ask an employee what the boss is like. I think you long for a utopian ideal where all employers and employees are good and fair, until it becomes a reality for you, the real world goes on.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

Until there are 20 employers scrambling to employ every single employee and not the other way round, an employer has a right to offer a job conditional on references. An applicant can stand outside the business and ask an employee what the boss is like. I think you long for a utopian ideal where all employers and employees are good and fair, until it becomes a reality for you, the real world goes on.

? There was no inference that a reference should not be asked for by an employer. The corollary that employers should provide references for employees remains as straightforward ethical behaviour. Your premise that ethics should be an excusable casualty of economic conditions is a ridiculous preposition for employers refusing to do so. The suggestion that only employees should be conscientious is equally risible.